one of the arguments you have been advancing in the last few years
one of the arguments you have been advancing in the last few years

is that you will never be able to defeat inflation until you tackle the trade unions which I
is that you will never be able to defeat inflation until you tackle the trade unions which I

think is the argument behind the rigidities of wages do you take the view that
think is the argument behind the rigidities of wages do you take the view that

more needs to be done - oh I am quite sure oh yes
more needs to be done - oh I am quite sure oh yes

that
that

particular and effective
particular and effective

prevention of all use of violence by pickets
prevention of all use of violence by pickets

must be carried through in all strictness
must be carried through in all strictness

so long as there are possibilities of
so long as there are possibilities of

workers prevent other workers from working
workers prevent other workers from working

I think we will still have an intolerable position
I think we will still have an intolerable position

which is not compatable with an operating market system - does
which is not compatable with an operating market system - does

your liberal individualist society have any role for trade unions and if so what is it
your liberal individualist society have any role for trade unions and if so what is it

well no doubt if I were an owner of an enterprise
well no doubt if I were an owner of an enterprise

and trade unions had not been invented I would invent them I would want someone to talk to on behalf of the
and trade unions had not been invented I would invent them I would want someone to talk to on behalf of the

workers
workers

but I
but I

would not tollerate them taking any
would not tollerate them taking any

exclusive monopolistic control
exclusive monopolistic control

so far as collective contracts for the people who want to accept them i'm all in favour
so far as collective contracts for the people who want to accept them i'm all in favour

but of course the whole problem is that the trade unions particularly in this country more then else-
but of course the whole problem is that the trade unions particularly in this country more then else-

where
where

in the course of time were granted privileges which the ordinary citizens has not
in the course of time were granted privileges which the ordinary citizens has not

essentially various uses of force & violence
essentially various uses of force & violence

in order to prevent other people from working at the terms that they work
in order to prevent other people from working at the terms that they work

and I am convinced that in a
and I am convinced that in a

functioning market order
functioning market order

trade unions must have no monopolitic power of any kind so you would outlaw the closed shop
trade unions must have no monopolitic power of any kind so you would outlaw the closed shop

you would presumably also insist that trade unions must be answerable at law for any actions they undertake like
you would presumably also insist that trade unions must be answerable at law for any actions they undertake like

other citizens
other citizens

and the underlying principle here I suppose you're saying that
and the underlying principle here I suppose you're saying that

people have a right to undercut other peoples wages that is a human right like any other
people have a right to undercut other peoples wages that is a human right like any other

I am sure they have
I am sure they have

I don't see how you can possibly morally justify...
I don't see how you can possibly morally justify...

see it is not realised the extent
see it is not realised the extent

present trade union powers leads to an exploitation of a large part of the
present trade union powers leads to an exploitation of a large part of the

workers by the others
workers by the others

and one of the most
and one of the most

extreme forms of it is
extreme forms of it is

that by
that by

driving up the wages of a particular group far above the level of others
driving up the wages of a particular group far above the level of others

these groups attract most of the available capital
these groups attract most of the available capital

because the more expensive labour becomes
because the more expensive labour becomes

the more it is worthwhile to replace labour by capital
the more it is worthwhile to replace labour by capital

with the result that capital is attracted to those industries
with the result that capital is attracted to those industries

where wages have
where wages have

been driven up fastest
been driven up fastest

at the expense of the others
at the expense of the others

the mass of the workers
the mass of the workers

can't get better equipped
can't get better equipped

and therefore can not be made more efficent
and therefore can not be made more efficent

by investment because the investment goes all to where wages are highest already
by investment because the investment goes all to where wages are highest already

so you are saying that trade unions cause unemployment i'm sure they do... not only unemployment they
so you are saying that trade unions cause unemployment i'm sure they do... not only unemployment they

keep the wages of a large part of labour low
keep the wages of a large part of labour low

why then do they continue to be so widely supported I think in Britain for example
why then do they continue to be so widely supported I think in Britain for example

because they just don't understand it
because they just don't understand it

the thing is that it is not too difficult to understand the naive
the thing is that it is not too difficult to understand the naive

idea
idea

that you can by
that you can by

fixing wages drive up the wages of all workers still prevails although it should be obvious to any intellegent
fixing wages drive up the wages of all workers still prevails although it should be obvious to any intellegent

person
person

that any
that any

wage above
wage above

competitive level
competitive level

must mean that some people earn more at the expense of others who don't get employment at all
must mean that some people earn more at the expense of others who don't get employment at all

but i noticed that for example recently in America some defenders of unions have argued
but i noticed that for example recently in America some defenders of unions have argued

that by increasing wages they compel companies to be more efficient
that by increasing wages they compel companies to be more efficient

then they would otherwise be in other words that they are themselves part of the cold blast of competition - but you see that is exactly what
then they would otherwise be in other words that they are themselves part of the cold blast of competition - but you see that is exactly what

I have been saying in a different form yes
I have been saying in a different form yes

it is true
it is true

that where wages are pushed up most highly the
that where wages are pushed up most highly the

firms are compelled
firms are compelled

to invest much more then they otherwise would and therefore adopt
to invest much more then they otherwise would and therefore adopt

technically advanced things
technically advanced things

but that happens at the expense of labour elsewhere
but that happens at the expense of labour elsewhere

capital which ought to go
capital which ought to go

to the industries where labour is least well equipped by
to the industries where labour is least well equipped by

capital
capital

is diverted to the industries where labour is already equipped with a great deal of capital
is diverted to the industries where labour is already equipped with a great deal of capital

where wages in consequence however are pushed still higher
where wages in consequence however are pushed still higher

while the workers who need
while the workers who need

assistence from capital most urgently
assistence from capital most urgently

and those which are still little mechanised
and those which are still little mechanised

are deprived of that capital - but I wonder if there isn't a change coming up for example in the United
are deprived of that capital - but I wonder if there isn't a change coming up for example in the United

States recently labor unions have agreed contacts which actually reduced their wages and
States recently labor unions have agreed contacts which actually reduced their wages and

benefits under the impact of recession and in Great Britain
benefits under the impact of recession and in Great Britain

again under the impact of recession the labor unions/trade unions have been prepared to abandon
again under the impact of recession the labor unions/trade unions have been prepared to abandon

restrictive practices which in many cases have been there for
restrictive practices which in many cases have been there for

thirty, forty, or fifty years, well they're beginning to see it but I don't think you can really compare the two countries
thirty, forty, or fifty years, well they're beginning to see it but I don't think you can really compare the two countries

in the United States there...
in the United States there...

I have said and I think it's still true
I have said and I think it's still true

the Unions are really a capitalist Racket
the Unions are really a capitalist Racket

fully accepting the capitalist system and just trying
fully accepting the capitalist system and just trying

on the imitation of capitalist monopolies to get a
on the imitation of capitalist monopolies to get a

to get a local gain by enforcing a local monopoly
to get a local gain by enforcing a local monopoly

they're not inspired by any
they're not inspired by any

any...
any...

labour theory, any
labour theory, any

ideology
ideology

the English are still much to much tied up with an idea of
the English are still much to much tied up with an idea of

changing order of society all together
changing order of society all together

american trade unionists
american trade unionists

knows
knows

that he is dependent on competition he just wants to protect himself but he knows he lives in a competitive society
that he is dependent on competition he just wants to protect himself but he knows he lives in a competitive society

the typical English trade unionist has a contempt for competition he thinks competition is something
the typical English trade unionist has a contempt for competition he thinks competition is something

unfair and unsocial
unfair and unsocial

and this attitude is
and this attitude is

as far as I can judge still very strong
as far as I can judge still very strong

I think in England it is a question of
I think in England it is a question of

converting the workers to admit the market order as a principle
converting the workers to admit the market order as a principle