I would just like to ask you about the thirties in another aspect
I would just like to ask you about the thirties in another aspect

were you at all closely following the international developments
were you at all closely following the international developments

the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, Munich
the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, Munich

the clash between the dictatorships and the democracies
the clash between the dictatorships and the democracies

inevitably yes
inevitably yes

and I was thinking that it was during that period
and I was thinking that it was during that period

that you were germinating the idea for the road to serfdom
that you were germinating the idea for the road to serfdom

what extent did Nazism directly influence that book
what extent did Nazism directly influence that book

yes
yes

very much so I mean that ultimately...
very much so I mean that ultimately...

the similarity between the various forms of totalitarianism
the similarity between the various forms of totalitarianism

became very obvious to me
became very obvious to me

at the same time when I became so very much aware that
at the same time when I became so very much aware that

certain ideas of engineers and natural scientists who interpreted the world
certain ideas of engineers and natural scientists who interpreted the world

through simply various intellectual sorts of the belief that we can direct
through simply various intellectual sorts of the belief that we can direct

all the activity in the service of social justice
all the activity in the service of social justice

I happened to just at the time immediately before and early in the war
I happened to just at the time immediately before and early in the war

do a study of the origin... of the intellectual origin of socialism
do a study of the origin... of the intellectual origin of socialism

and discovered in this that already the early French Socialists were
and discovered in this that already the early French Socialists were

essentially totalitarians that Hitler no less then Lenin or Marx even
essentially totalitarians that Hitler no less then Lenin or Marx even

drew on what was in its consequences a totalitarian conception of government
drew on what was in its consequences a totalitarian conception of government

improved only by the idea that we are going to do it in the service of some ideal of social
improved only by the idea that we are going to do it in the service of some ideal of social

justice
justice

but that they would be bound to use the same compulsory methods
but that they would be bound to use the same compulsory methods

essentially restricting and diminishing individual freedom
essentially restricting and diminishing individual freedom

always in the service of a very good purpose of course
always in the service of a very good purpose of course

not in the service of a particular group but that basically that there
not in the service of a particular group but that basically that there

is no difference between socialism and fascism
is no difference between socialism and fascism

but isn't it fair to say that in Britain over the last thirty years
but isn't it fair to say that in Britain over the last thirty years

that we have gone a considerable way down the direction of
that we have gone a considerable way down the direction of

increasing state control over industry over planning over education
increasing state control over industry over planning over education

over the provision of welfare and so on
over the provision of welfare and so on

and yet people in this country don't feel any less free
and yet people in this country don't feel any less free

they are not much less free because they have never been
they are not much less free because they have never been

consistently moving in that direction
consistently moving in that direction

see when at the end of the war when I published the book the Road to Serfdom
see when at the end of the war when I published the book the Road to Serfdom

I did never say as it is alleged
I did never say as it is alleged

once you start on this track you are bound to go along to the bitter end
once you start on this track you are bound to go along to the bitter end

it was just a warning that if you tried
it was just a warning that if you tried

consistently follow the principles on which it is based
consistently follow the principles on which it is based

then it would lead to totalitarianism
then it would lead to totalitarianism

but in fact there were a number of intellectuals
but in fact there were a number of intellectuals

I think Keynes was one
I think Keynes was one

who argued that you could risk doing what I think he called dangerous acts
who argued that you could risk doing what I think he called dangerous acts

if the community had strong moral traditions
if the community had strong moral traditions

which would inhibit them from oppressing the people
which would inhibit them from oppressing the people

I didn't deny it even at the time
I didn't deny it even at the time

but I am afraid the moral traditions are made by history
but I am afraid the moral traditions are made by history

If you move in a certain direction moral traditions change
If you move in a certain direction moral traditions change

and this confidence that the moral tradition of the English
and this confidence that the moral tradition of the English

was so fundamentally different from those on the continent
was so fundamentally different from those on the continent

rather exaggerated the position
rather exaggerated the position

the English were not immune but were up to a point
the English were not immune but were up to a point

protected against moving to fast and too far in the dangerous direction
protected against moving to fast and too far in the dangerous direction

but I think this confidence that.. which incidentally Churchill also had
but I think this confidence that.. which incidentally Churchill also had

I had one single conversation in my life with Churchill
I had one single conversation in my life with Churchill

who had by that time been acquainted with my book
who had by that time been acquainted with my book

and he said that it was very instructive
and he said that it was very instructive

but it would never happen in England it was his absolute confidence
but it would never happen in England it was his absolute confidence

again trusting what was presumed to be a peculiarly strong I suppose
again trusting what was presumed to be a peculiarly strong I suppose

individualism or adherence to a moral respect for the individual
individualism or adherence to a moral respect for the individual

which I am still not convinced the English really have
which I am still not convinced the English really have

they have been warned by what they have seen to
they have been warned by what they have seen to

happen elsewhere and have become cautious
happen elsewhere and have become cautious

but I don't think the tone occasionally used by
but I don't think the tone occasionally used by

socialist politicians are very reassuring really
socialist politicians are very reassuring really

The Road to Serfdom has certainly altered your own life
The Road to Serfdom has certainly altered your own life

from an economist who was known to a small circle
from an economist who was known to a small circle

you became suddenly a notorious political figure
you became suddenly a notorious political figure

and almost a figure in the nineteen forty five general election
and almost a figure in the nineteen forty five general election

and it was an even bigger success I think in America
and it was an even bigger success I think in America

well yes but of a very different kind
well yes but of a very different kind

you see the English had been aware of these problems
you see the English had been aware of these problems

you could accuse me of having exaggerated an argument
you could accuse me of having exaggerated an argument

but it was not a wholly new conception
but it was not a wholly new conception

some of the more reflective people...
some of the more reflective people...

well the fact that Orwell of course was arguing at the same time
well the fact that Orwell of course was arguing at the same time

and I no longer believe as I did believe at one time
and I no longer believe as I did believe at one time

that he was directly inspired by my Road to Serfdom
that he was directly inspired by my Road to Serfdom

he had written a review of that book
he had written a review of that book

and I thought that had started him but it is now clear that
and I thought that had started him but it is now clear that

by that time he already had the draft of Animal Farm ready
by that time he already had the draft of Animal Farm ready

so he must have arrived at the general view independently although I think he learned
so he must have arrived at the general view independently although I think he learned

from it
from it

he was not the only one it was not a completely new idea
he was not the only one it was not a completely new idea

it was an idea to which the English public was somewhat prepared
it was an idea to which the English public was somewhat prepared

the Americans had only in the last ten years become converted to a sort of socialism
the Americans had only in the last ten years become converted to a sort of socialism

it was only the new deal and it was the latest exciting discovery
it was only the new deal and it was the latest exciting discovery

of all the intellectuals and I was directing my argument against
of all the intellectuals and I was directing my argument against

what all the intellectuals thought was the great achievement of the last generation
what all the intellectuals thought was the great achievement of the last generation

so the result in America was that both sides talked about
so the result in America was that both sides talked about

my book nobody really read it or studied it
my book nobody really read it or studied it

in fact I remember vividly
in fact I remember vividly

a letter from one great American philosopher to an English philosopher
a letter from one great American philosopher to an English philosopher

who blamed the English philosopher for merely having quoted my book
who blamed the English philosopher for merely having quoted my book

“this dreadful book which I of course have not read”
“this dreadful book which I of course have not read”