[Dr Craig] Until you realize that, according to the Quran, what God's mercy really cashes out to is that IF you believe

and do righteous deeds, THEN God can be counted on to overlook your sins and reward your good works.

And thus the Quran promises: Work! And God will surely see your work. Every soul shall be paid in full for what it has earned.

Those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, and perform the prayer and pay the alms, their wage awaits them with the Lord.

According to the Quran, God's love is thus reserved only for those who earn it.

It says to those who believe and do righteousness, God will assign love. So the Quran assures us of God's love for the God-fearing and the do-gooders,

but he has no love for sinners and unbelievers. Thus in the Islamic conception, God is NOT all-loving. His

love is partial and has to be earned. The Muslim God loves only those who first love him.

His love, thus, rises no higher than the love that

Jesus said, "Even tax collectors and sinners exhibit."

In his website, Shabir Ally admits this. In dealing with the question, "If God is

loving, kind, and merciful, why would he punish one in hell?" Listen to what he says in

response to that question. "Do to a misunderstanding many people see this as an irresolvable

contradiction. The misunderstanding begins with the assumption that God

loves everyone, even sinners.

It then becomes difficult to explain why God would punish sinners. He says, to quote from Matthew's gospel, "You have heard it said, 'Love your

neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, 'Love your enemies.'" He says, "Now this passage indicates that it is a good thing I love ones enemies.

It follows then that God being infinitely good must love his enemies too. But then why would he punish them? The Quran

resolves this problem by indicating quite clearly that God does not love sinners who refuse to change.

[Ally] Now the god of the Quran offers promise and threats. And Muslim scholars hold that the promises of God have to be true.

What God says he will give us he must fulfill. But if God gives a threat, he does not have to carry out that threat.

He can say, "If you do that, I will whip you." But he does not have

to actually whip you even if you do that. But he threatens people who need the

threat in order to bring them back to the right path. In a similar sense there are verses in the Quran which say

that God does not love certain individuals. This too is taken in that general concept

[unknown]. Stop doing what you're doing otherwise you're not within the love of God.

Come back to the right path, God will love you. You really want God to love you? Come back to the right path. So the basic understanding is that God

loves everyone in a basic way. He has created all of us for his mercy. But he has given us the free-will

to turn away from that mercy. And some people will. I think the difficulty Dr Craig has with this understanding, is because Dr Craig starts

with the understanding that human beings are all created, doomed from the start.

And we need the love of God to flow to everyone, to give everyone that chance to be rescued and saved. But notice

that we're speaking about that basic love of God as being extended to human beings from the start.

So our default situation is not that we are born in sin. But that we are born in the grace of God. All ready.

And ripe to receive His mercy. So it seems in the end that we're saying the same things. Yes, even on my website where I

repeat these statements about God from the Quran about God hating certain persons. The conclusion is, as I have stated, and Dr Craig has quoted,

If God loves these people then why would he punish sinners? And finally, God does not love sinners who refuse to change.

[Craig] Now, Shabir's intention on this, I mean,

First he wants to say, "This isn't true, the God of the Quran IS all-loving, that he DOES love all people. But that's simply not what the Quran says.

In the Quran, God's love is conditional. Listen to the following surah: "Say, if you love God, follow me and God will love you and forgive your sins.

Obey God and the messenger. But if they turn their backs, God loves not the

unbelievers. And over and over again, the Quran teaches that you must merit God's love by believing correctly and doing righteous deeds. So that his love is conditional, partial,

and selective. And Shabir admits this on his website. Remember this is the way he answers the objection, "How can an all-loving God punish people?"

Namely, he doesn't love them! And that's why he can punish them. Now I agree with Shabir that debates like this

can help to provide deeper insights into the concept of God. And as I contemplated Shabir's response I think I began to see a deep, deep difference

between us that surfaced. And this is related to the objections raised in our

debate over the doctrine of salvation. I argued there that the Islamic doctrine of salvation compromises God's justice because

he just overlooks certain peoples' sins without punishment and our present discussion reinforces this.

Why think that punishment is incompatible with love? Well Shabir's answer is because if he loved them, then he'd just

forgive them! Since he doesn't forgive them, he must not love them.

But I want to know, why do you think that God can just forgive sin without payment? And I think the answer is because on the Islamic

conception of God, his omnipotence trumps his justice. God can do anything he wants. So if he wanted to forgive everybody he'd just do it.

Since he doesn't do it, he must not want to. Why doesn't he want to? The answer is, because he doesn't love everyone.

[Ally] Now Dr Craig agrees that God will punish people. But he thinks that God loves those whom he punishes.

But my question, specifically, was this: Does God love those people in the same way that he loves the ones who are close to him?

And my answer to that is that God loves everyone in some basic way. But those who come close to him, he loves even more.

And those who turn away from him deserve the condemnation

that God speaks about when he says

that he hates evildoers

But Dr Craig thinks that God must punish evil doers.

I maintain that God does NOT have to punish evildoers. He may if he wants, or he may forgive them if he wants.

[Craig] Here Shabir quotes general statements in the Quran that God is full of loving-kindness.

But the question is, what does that mean? What does it cash out to?

What that cashes out to is that if you do works of righteousness, if you believe the right thing, then God will assign love to you.

Otherwise he will not love you.

That is crucial to Shabir's answer to the question: Why does God punish people if he loves them?

The answer Shabir gives is: He does not love them. Otherwise I ask Shabir Ally, Why doesn't God

just forgive everyone. If he's so full of loving-kindness. Why doesn't everyone just go to heaven?

If that's within God's power. The real issue, I believe, between us is this different concepts of omnipotence.

That on the Muslim concept of God, God's omnipotence trumps his own nature. So he

can act contrary to His justice but on the Christian view, His own nature provides the boundary channels for his omnipotence.

And therefore God both punishes and loves at the same time. Like any loving parent does who finds himself obligated to punish his children whom he loves.

Does he love those whom he punishes in the same way that he loves those who are saved? Yes absolutely!

God loves the lost, and that's why he sent his son to die for them. Every single human being is a person for whom Christ gave his life.

And is therefore beloved of God.

On the Islamic view, however, God does not love.