Emily: Peggy McNamara is a fixture in the halls and behind the scenes at the Field Museum
Emily: Peggy McNamara is a fixture in the halls and behind the scenes at the Field Museum

She's doing research of the artistic nature
She's doing research of the artistic nature

Peggy's the museum's only artist in residence and has been studying
Peggy's the museum's only artist in residence and has been studying

drawing and painting the specimens on display
drawing and painting the specimens on display

and in the collections for the past 35 years.
and in the collections for the past 35 years.

Some of you might not know this but the whole reason I got
Some of you might not know this but the whole reason I got

into Natural History Museums in the first place was because
into Natural History Museums in the first place was because

of art. My internship at the Philip Bell Wright Zoological Museum in Montana was for art credits.
of art. My internship at the Philip Bell Wright Zoological Museum in Montana was for art credits.

And I spent my last semester of college drawing and painting specimens in the museum
And I spent my last semester of college drawing and painting specimens in the museum

That's how I first fell in love with science and nature and the same goes for Peggy, too.
That's how I first fell in love with science and nature and the same goes for Peggy, too.

So this episode is pretty special.
So this episode is pretty special.

Peggy came down to The Brain Scoop studio, so she and I could make some art together.
Peggy came down to The Brain Scoop studio, so she and I could make some art together.

Emily: So, Peggy, I guess just to get chatting while we're sitting here drawing our beautiful caracal
Emily: So, Peggy, I guess just to get chatting while we're sitting here drawing our beautiful caracal

You've been an artist here at the Field Museum for a number of years.
You've been an artist here at the Field Museum for a number of years.

Peggy: A long time
Peggy: A long time

Yeah
Yeah

Peggy: I came in my twenties because everything held still and there was free parking in front
Peggy: I came in my twenties because everything held still and there was free parking in front

I thought maybe by osmosis it would make me a better and I sort of believe that
I thought maybe by osmosis it would make me a better and I sort of believe that

Looking at well made things putting him down carefully
Looking at well made things putting him down carefully

Isn't that what scientists do? (Emily: Yeah) And then they get an idea.
Isn't that what scientists do? (Emily: Yeah) And then they get an idea.

And I think my whole drawing method is,
And I think my whole drawing method is,

revolves around having enough time and I crawl from here to here to here to here.
revolves around having enough time and I crawl from here to here to here to here.

Well. That's a luxury
Well. That's a luxury

Then I curl down here, and it's all wrong then I curl down here
Then I curl down here, and it's all wrong then I curl down here

I mean the tenth time through its right.
I mean the tenth time through its right.

Emily: So when you hold your pencil up and I kind of I do this too.
Emily: So when you hold your pencil up and I kind of I do this too.

Sometimes I feel like I'm faking it, sometimes I feel like it works. What are you looking for?
Sometimes I feel like I'm faking it, sometimes I feel like it works. What are you looking for?

Peggy: I'm holding like if I'm holding right. Where is the tip of his ear here? Where does it begin?
Peggy: I'm holding like if I'm holding right. Where is the tip of his ear here? Where does it begin?

(Emily: Yeah) So I hold my pencil and close one eye, and
(Emily: Yeah) So I hold my pencil and close one eye, and

it's right above here now this I wouldn't just go: Oh, that's down
it's right above here now this I wouldn't just go: Oh, that's down

Again, where's that point and it's right above his eye here, and how far over, and then
Again, where's that point and it's right above his eye here, and how far over, and then

It's MapQuest. You know, when we have kids
It's MapQuest. You know, when we have kids

in the museum, if you could put a piece of tracing paper around the glass
in the museum, if you could put a piece of tracing paper around the glass

and you gave him a pen and they didn't move they could draw it perfectly. (Emily: Yeah)
and you gave him a pen and they didn't move they could draw it perfectly. (Emily: Yeah)

That's all we're doing.
That's all we're doing.

Emily: You've got an eraser there too.
Emily: You've got an eraser there too.

Peggy: I always have it and I first day a class I give every one one
Peggy: I always have it and I first day a class I give every one one

(Emily: Yeah), and say it's the most important tool that will ever use.
(Emily: Yeah), and say it's the most important tool that will ever use.

Emily: more important than the pencil. Peggy: Yes.
Emily: more important than the pencil. Peggy: Yes.

I think editing, knowing when you're wrong and changing it, everybody does it in writing,
I think editing, knowing when you're wrong and changing it, everybody does it in writing,

everybody does it in a lot of things.
everybody does it in a lot of things.

I don't know why they think you supposed to have the drawing right first time through.
I don't know why they think you supposed to have the drawing right first time through.

Emily: So when you start painting.
Emily: So when you start painting.

Peggy: I just did it putting, like, big simple.
Peggy: I just did it putting, like, big simple.

And you know he is, you know, we're desperate for something, so any place
And you know he is, you know, we're desperate for something, so any place

I can think of sticking another, like there.
I can think of sticking another, like there.

Emily: You just went for it just with the blue.
Emily: You just went for it just with the blue.

Peggy: there
Peggy: there

Peggy: Sort of the compliment of the yellow, but I can figure this part of his body is in shadow and
Peggy: Sort of the compliment of the yellow, but I can figure this part of his body is in shadow and

this is the whole watercolor thing
this is the whole watercolor thing

If I try to work it (Emily: hmm-hmm) like if you naggy somebody (Emily: Yeah)
If I try to work it (Emily: hmm-hmm) like if you naggy somebody (Emily: Yeah)

They'll never do it.
They'll never do it.

So the only way to get him to work is to let him dry and do the next layer the only way you get into
So the only way to get him to work is to let him dry and do the next layer the only way you get into

trouble is
trouble is

forcing it too quickly.
forcing it too quickly.

Emily: This is the part that I like (Peggy: Yes, of course) it's like you're you can be like a chemist
Emily: This is the part that I like (Peggy: Yes, of course) it's like you're you can be like a chemist

I start by putting a really annoyingly bright
I start by putting a really annoyingly bright

color down in the background, and then I usually go over it later
color down in the background, and then I usually go over it later

But I'm just gonna put yellow on it.
But I'm just gonna put yellow on it.

Peggy: Yes, there you go
Peggy: Yes, there you go

Emily: It's why not?
Emily: It's why not?

Peggy: Is the weirdest long body isn't it?
Peggy: Is the weirdest long body isn't it?

Emily: Yeah. It's a big noodle. It's like a very giant hairy sausage.
Emily: Yeah. It's a big noodle. It's like a very giant hairy sausage.

Peggy: And then I try to I don't want any color to feel left out
Peggy: And then I try to I don't want any color to feel left out

so..
so..

Emily: Like they talk to one another?
Emily: Like they talk to one another?

Peggy: Yeah like oh, she likes you better than me.
Peggy: Yeah like oh, she likes you better than me.

So I try to get everybody on there
So I try to get everybody on there

And then I can always bring it back to something dull.
And then I can always bring it back to something dull.

Emily: So when you look at something like this
Emily: So when you look at something like this

you don't just see brown and yellow and tan.
you don't just see brown and yellow and tan.

Peggy: Right, I am
Peggy: Right, I am

using lots of blues
using lots of blues

and and I always am including the
and and I always am including the

complement, so they'll be violet.
complement, so they'll be violet.

Emily: Aren't you ever afraid that something's gonna turn out looking like Lisa Frank?
Emily: Aren't you ever afraid that something's gonna turn out looking like Lisa Frank?

Peggy: I, I, have enough bad ones, Emily, it doesn't bother me
Peggy: I, I, have enough bad ones, Emily, it doesn't bother me

I don't know how you get the good ones unless you accept a few bad ones, right?
I don't know how you get the good ones unless you accept a few bad ones, right?

Emily: Yeah
Emily: Yeah

Peggy: Its all that what I do.
Peggy: Its all that what I do.

Emily: That's a pretty good lesson no matter what you do.
Emily: That's a pretty good lesson no matter what you do.

Peggy: Yes. Emily: so how did you end up in the bird division after painting figures?
Peggy: Yes. Emily: so how did you end up in the bird division after painting figures?

Peggy: Yeah
Peggy: Yeah

So you know how so much as instincts like right now your instincts are telling you what to do.
So you know how so much as instincts like right now your instincts are telling you what to do.

Not some law that you learnt in school, right? Emily: Sure
Not some law that you learnt in school, right? Emily: Sure

Peggy: So how does one improve their instincts?
Peggy: So how does one improve their instincts?

So my theory is you look at perfectly made things and then maybe
So my theory is you look at perfectly made things and then maybe

It'll internalize or something. Emily: Birds, then, you, what's what's perfect about birds?
It'll internalize or something. Emily: Birds, then, you, what's what's perfect about birds?

Peggy: Oh, they're not they're surprising. Don't you think?
Peggy: Oh, they're not they're surprising. Don't you think?

Emily: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.

Well, they're fun. Peggy: Yeah, their colors, just like, it doesn't make any sense half the time.
Well, they're fun. Peggy: Yeah, their colors, just like, it doesn't make any sense half the time.

It's like wow it's like all the hair now
It's like wow it's like all the hair now

Finally people's hair is like it's like birds. I guess uh someone today was great great pink hair, I
Finally people's hair is like it's like birds. I guess uh someone today was great great pink hair, I

thought, finally
thought, finally

fun hair
fun hair

Emily: So do you have colors in mind when you start going?
Emily: So do you have colors in mind when you start going?

Peggy: You know (Emily: about this) I put out the primaries and secondaries
Peggy: You know (Emily: about this) I put out the primaries and secondaries

so there's a red and a green a purple and a yellow and orange and a blue (Emilly: hmm-hmm) and then
so there's a red and a green a purple and a yellow and orange and a blue (Emilly: hmm-hmm) and then

everything that they're all transparent. (Emily: Yeah) so that's like dating it's nothing as permanent
everything that they're all transparent. (Emily: Yeah) so that's like dating it's nothing as permanent

(Emily: Wait) yeah, no cadmium or anything that's after I'm committed.
(Emily: Wait) yeah, no cadmium or anything that's after I'm committed.

Emily: I feel like that my cadmiums, my cadmium yellows, and
Emily: I feel like that my cadmiums, my cadmium yellows, and

my cadmium reds are like my my go to
my cadmium reds are like my my go to

I just started by putting cadmium yellow in the background.
I just started by putting cadmium yellow in the background.

Peggy: But you can cover up on acrylic easier.
Peggy: But you can cover up on acrylic easier.

Emily: That's true. Peggy: So I do that, but all those kinds of routines
Emily: That's true. Peggy: So I do that, but all those kinds of routines

(Emily: Mm-hmm) I even hate saying when I am in class cause someone will think they have to do that.
(Emily: Mm-hmm) I even hate saying when I am in class cause someone will think they have to do that.

Emily: They'll be like, Oh. Peggy said I should.
Emily: They'll be like, Oh. Peggy said I should.

Peggy: Yeah, which you know get your own you can develop your own
Peggy: Yeah, which you know get your own you can develop your own

thing. I mean it's hard to take off a cadmium.
thing. I mean it's hard to take off a cadmium.

Emily: My art teacher kind of told me to is that a line
Emily: My art teacher kind of told me to is that a line

Isn't really like a line when you see the edge of something that there's there's no lines in nature
Isn't really like a line when you see the edge of something that there's there's no lines in nature

Everything has some sort of shape or contour so when it comes to making the lines, you're just on the
Everything has some sort of shape or contour so when it comes to making the lines, you're just on the

painting you're just taking a different value of color and filling in the rest of it. What did they call that technique?
painting you're just taking a different value of color and filling in the rest of it. What did they call that technique?

That's not the sfumato.
That's not the sfumato.

Peggy: Yes.
Peggy: Yes.

Emily: I remembered.
Emily: I remembered.

Peggy: Very impressive that you just came up with that word
Peggy: Very impressive that you just came up with that word

Peggy: You know I'm putting white in my cat's eyes, and he's gonna. Just it's like waking him up
Peggy: You know I'm putting white in my cat's eyes, and he's gonna. Just it's like waking him up

Like, Hi.
Like, Hi.

I'm alive.
I'm alive.

Emily: Man, this is a sort of painting I could spend a really long time on in
Emily: Man, this is a sort of painting I could spend a really long time on in

And still feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I think it's just cuz he's got this big noodle body.
And still feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I think it's just cuz he's got this big noodle body.

Peggy: It's because he's all yellow.
Peggy: It's because he's all yellow.

Emily: That, that as well.
Emily: That, that as well.

Peggy: Yes, it's
Peggy: Yes, it's

his fault, Emily.
his fault, Emily.

Emily: And then if I was really gonna gonna do this like finish it
Emily: And then if I was really gonna gonna do this like finish it

I I'd do a lot of the texture with the palette knives. Whoo.
I I'd do a lot of the texture with the palette knives. Whoo.

Here we go. Things have been crazy now.
Here we go. Things have been crazy now.

Now he looks like he's like running out of a prairie fire or something.
Now he looks like he's like running out of a prairie fire or something.

That's fun.
That's fun.

There we go.
There we go.

Tada. Peggy, what's one thing that you wish people knew
Tada. Peggy, what's one thing that you wish people knew

or appreciated about art?
or appreciated about art?

Peggy: I think there's much more talent out there that ever gets awakened
Peggy: I think there's much more talent out there that ever gets awakened

(Emily: Yeah) I think they get discouraged because they see end product whereas in school,
(Emily: Yeah) I think they get discouraged because they see end product whereas in school,

you know, you start you're in first grade you go to basketball, and you play all summer
you know, you start you're in first grade you go to basketball, and you play all summer

And you know but somehow this they think they gotta come ready made (Emily: Yeah) with an idea and ability
And you know but somehow this they think they gotta come ready made (Emily: Yeah) with an idea and ability

and it's just if it works as a
and it's just if it works as a

meditation for you, then you're supposed to be doing it, I think.
meditation for you, then you're supposed to be doing it, I think.

Emily: Yeah, there's um there's no judgment here.
Emily: Yeah, there's um there's no judgment here.

Peggy: Yeah, and who says, nowadays, what's good and that you know.
Peggy: Yeah, and who says, nowadays, what's good and that you know.

Emily: why not just make a thing (Peggy: right, right) and enjoy it.
Emily: why not just make a thing (Peggy: right, right) and enjoy it.

Peggy: Make a thing. Emily: Yeah, I like that.
Peggy: Make a thing. Emily: Yeah, I like that.

Emily: Congratulations. yours, I'm, this is beautiful
Emily: Congratulations. yours, I'm, this is beautiful

This is amazing that you could complete that in, in just a short amount of time, feel like you're really captured
This is amazing that you could complete that in, in just a short amount of time, feel like you're really captured

Peggy: Well, I think (Emily: some of the animal) I did okay, I would never yeah
Peggy: Well, I think (Emily: some of the animal) I did okay, I would never yeah

I never spent a day it's always five days. This composition worked after all that in the beginning.
I never spent a day it's always five days. This composition worked after all that in the beginning.

Emily: Yeah, do you think so?
Emily: Yeah, do you think so?

Peggy: Yeah. I don't, I think his body was not interesting.
Peggy: Yeah. I don't, I think his body was not interesting.

Emily: Yeah, cuz he's got this kind of the noodle body and then kind of the noodles up here.
Emily: Yeah, cuz he's got this kind of the noodle body and then kind of the noodles up here.

Peggy: Yeah, you needed more time (Emily: Yeah) to his texture.
Peggy: Yeah, you needed more time (Emily: Yeah) to his texture.

Emily: to develop the noodles a little bit more. Peggy: Noddle development.
Emily: to develop the noodles a little bit more. Peggy: Noddle development.

Emily: This is really where all the fun was happening up in the face. (Peggy: Yeah). I can't say that
Emily: This is really where all the fun was happening up in the face. (Peggy: Yeah). I can't say that

I love this blue now that I'm looking at it
I love this blue now that I'm looking at it

But you know what you know always go back and redo it.
But you know what you know always go back and redo it.

Peggy: Yes, you can nothing is final in art. Emily: Yeah. Peggy: Praise.
Peggy: Yes, you can nothing is final in art. Emily: Yeah. Peggy: Praise.

It still has brains on it
It still has brains on it