David in Fairmont, Minnesota. Hi David, you are first with Tim. Hey, yeah.
David in Fairmont, Minnesota. Hi David, you are first with Tim. Hey, yeah.

Hey, David. So my question is about the nature of the Church. My buddies and I
Hey, David. So my question is about the nature of the Church. My buddies and I

were talking, and they were really only feeling that the Church is just the
were talking, and they were really only feeling that the Church is just the

people that make up the Church, and that there isn't anything more to the
people that make up the Church, and that there isn't anything more to the

Church. Right. But you know, all grace comes from God
Church. Right. But you know, all grace comes from God

through the Church. Correct. I'm just wondering--if a Native American who had
through the Church. Correct. I'm just wondering--if a Native American who had

never met somebody or ever heard of Jesus still has a chance to get to
never met somebody or ever heard of Jesus still has a chance to get to

Heaven, which requires sanctifying grace, how would they receive that
Heaven, which requires sanctifying grace, how would they receive that

grace if the Church is just the people of the Church? Gotcha. Well let me--yeah,
grace if the Church is just the people of the Church? Gotcha. Well let me--yeah,

let me jump in, David, because you've you've got several questions here, and
let me jump in, David, because you've you've got several questions here, and

thank you for your call. First of all, when we talk about the Church properly
thank you for your call. First of all, when we talk about the Church properly

speaking, you know--remember David, people will speak of the Church as
speaking, you know--remember David, people will speak of the Church as

meaning the entirety of the Body of Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic
meaning the entirety of the Body of Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic

Church, for example, in paragraph 830, talks about the definition of the
Church, for example, in paragraph 830, talks about the definition of the

Catholic Church, and it refers to the Greek word for "church" being "ecclesia"
Catholic Church, and it refers to the Greek word for "church" being "ecclesia"

which means "the called-out ones," so, you know, in that loose--in a loose sense, you
which means "the called-out ones," so, you know, in that loose--in a loose sense, you

can say that the Church consists of the called-out ones, those who are separated
can say that the Church consists of the called-out ones, those who are separated

unto God through Baptism and such. However, that same paragraph there in
unto God through Baptism and such. However, that same paragraph there in

paragraph 830 also points out that "the Church" also has this sort of double
paragraph 830 also points out that "the Church" also has this sort of double

meaning; it means....the word itself comes from a couple of Greek
meaning; it means....the word itself comes from a couple of Greek

words as well--or a preposition and a word-- "katholikos," that is, "that which is
words as well--or a preposition and a word-- "katholikos," that is, "that which is

according to the whole." And that gets at that
according to the whole." And that gets at that

understanding that you were just mentioning, David, and whether you knew it
understanding that you were just mentioning, David, and whether you knew it

or not, you were actually referencing Ephesians 1:22-23
or not, you were actually referencing Ephesians 1:22-23

where *Paul says that the Church is the body of Christ, "the fullness of him who
where *Paul says that the Church is the body of Christ, "the fullness of him who

fills all and is in all." So the Church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.
fills all and is in all." So the Church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.

So just as Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, "No man can come to
So just as Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, "No man can come to

the Father except through [him]," right, John 14:6; well the Church is Jesus Christ
the Father except through [him]," right, John 14:6; well the Church is Jesus Christ

extended into the world, therefore the Church is necessary for salvation,
extended into the world, therefore the Church is necessary for salvation,

because all grace comes through the Church. Now secondly, when he talks
because all grace comes through the Church. Now secondly, when he talks

about the Church as just being the "people of God," again, in a
about the Church as just being the "people of God," again, in a

very loose sense, there's truth to that; however the Bible is very, very clear, you
very loose sense, there's truth to that; however the Bible is very, very clear, you

know, when St. Paul talks about the Church. For example, go to Ephesians
know, when St. Paul talks about the Church. For example, go to Ephesians

4:11. He says, "God has placed in the Church apostles, prophets,
4:11. He says, "God has placed in the Church apostles, prophets,

pastors, evangelists, and teachers, for the work of the ministry, for the building of
pastors, evangelists, and teachers, for the work of the ministry, for the building of

the body of Christ till we all come to the unity of the faith" (now I'm skipping a
the body of Christ till we all come to the unity of the faith" (now I'm skipping a

couple verses there), and why? Verse 14 says, "So that we henceforth be not
couple verses there), and why? Verse 14 says, "So that we henceforth be not

children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine." So notice, the Church
children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine." So notice, the Church

consists of an hierarchy, right, apostles, prophets--and remember, David: St. Paul
consists of an hierarchy, right, apostles, prophets--and remember, David: St. Paul

asks a rhetorical question in 1 Corinthians 12, where is that, about verse
asks a rhetorical question in 1 Corinthians 12, where is that, about verse

26: Are all apostles? No. Are all prophets? No. So everyone's not an apostle, so we
26: Are all apostles? No. Are all prophets? No. So everyone's not an apostle, so we

have a hierarchy. This is why Jesus can say in Matthew 18:15-18, David,
have a hierarchy. This is why Jesus can say in Matthew 18:15-18, David,

that if our brother offends against thee, we go tell him his fault between
that if our brother offends against thee, we go tell him his fault between

him and us alone; if he hears us, we've gained our brother; if he won't hear us,
him and us alone; if he hears us, we've gained our brother; if he won't hear us,

we take one or two with us, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every
we take one or two with us, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every

word may be established; and if he will not even hear them, you tell it to the
word may be established; and if he will not even hear them, you tell it to the

Church. So notice there's a hierarchy here, right? You go to your brother, can't
Church. So notice there's a hierarchy here, right? You go to your brother, can't

sell it, take one or two; but still can't sell it, you take it to the Church. So
sell it, take one or two; but still can't sell it, you take it to the Church. So

there is the Church that is hierarchical, that has
there is the Church that is hierarchical, that has

authoritative voices in it--namely, the Apostles, and their successors the
authoritative voices in it--namely, the Apostles, and their successors the

bishops, and St. Peter and his successors the Popes. So that's important to lay out
bishops, and St. Peter and his successors the Popes. So that's important to lay out

here. But now, the next part of your question, though, is is a very good one:
here. But now, the next part of your question, though, is is a very good one:

what about those who don't have access to the Church? You know, someone that's
what about those who don't have access to the Church? You know, someone that's

out in the middle of the jungles of Africa and has never heard of of the
out in the middle of the jungles of Africa and has never heard of of the

Church? Is there the possibility of salvation? And the Catholic Church says
Church? Is there the possibility of salvation? And the Catholic Church says

yes; though all grace ultimately comes through Jesus Christ and His Church,
yes; though all grace ultimately comes through Jesus Christ and His Church,

those graces can reach souls in extraordinary ways. The Catholic Church
those graces can reach souls in extraordinary ways. The Catholic Church

teaches that if someone is truly and INVINCIBLY--
teaches that if someone is truly and INVINCIBLY--

and that's the key--invincibly ignorant of the truth--for example, David, in 1949
and that's the key--invincibly ignorant of the truth--for example, David, in 1949

the then Holy Office responded to a particular situation
the then Holy Office responded to a particular situation

going on, centered in the Archdiocese of Boston, with what we call
going on, centered in the Archdiocese of Boston, with what we call

now the Feeneyites, who were teaching a sort of strict
now the Feeneyites, who were teaching a sort of strict

interpretation of "no salvation outside of the Church." The Church responded to
interpretation of "no salvation outside of the Church." The Church responded to

that and said: while, you know, in essence, while it is true there's no salvation
that and said: while, you know, in essence, while it is true there's no salvation

outside of the Church--that's an infallible teaching--the graces of the
outside of the Church--that's an infallible teaching--the graces of the

Church can reach to people who are where they are through no fault of their own.
Church can reach to people who are where they are through no fault of their own.

That's what the Church means by "invincibly ignorant;" they're not culpable
That's what the Church means by "invincibly ignorant;" they're not culpable

for, they're not responsible for, their ignorance. And if, you know, in ways known
for, they're not responsible for, their ignorance. And if, you know, in ways known

to God alone, supernatural faith, charity, are being communicated to that person by
to God alone, supernatural faith, charity, are being communicated to that person by

grace and they are responding to those graces, David, ultimately those graces
grace and they are responding to those graces, David, ultimately those graces

come through Jesus and His Church. But they are disseminated in ways that
come through Jesus and His Church. But they are disseminated in ways that

sometimes we're not privy to. We are privy to the way those graces are
sometimes we're not privy to. We are privy to the way those graces are

distributed in in some contexts. For example, Orthodox believers who have all
distributed in in some contexts. For example, Orthodox believers who have all

seven sacraments; they are real, they are valid, and thus
seven sacraments; they are real, they are valid, and thus

graces are communicated. Protestants who have two valid sacraments--presumably--
graces are communicated. Protestants who have two valid sacraments--presumably--

right, baptism and and marriage; those are real avenues of grace. So again,
right, baptism and and marriage; those are real avenues of grace. So again,

for those who are invincibly ignorant in those communities, and God alone is
for those who are invincibly ignorant in those communities, and God alone is

the judge of who these people are--we evangelize everybody--but if in fact you
the judge of who these people are--we evangelize everybody--but if in fact you

do have some who are invincibly ignorant and they cooperate with the grace
do have some who are invincibly ignorant and they cooperate with the grace

of God, where they are, the best they can, God alone is the judge of whether they
of God, where they are, the best they can, God alone is the judge of whether they

meet that criteria or even what the criteria ultimately are; then they have
meet that criteria or even what the criteria ultimately are; then they have

the possibility of salvation. So the same can be said analogously for those
the possibility of salvation. So the same can be said analogously for those

who are outside of the Christian faith don't have baptism or anything...you know,
who are outside of the Christian faith don't have baptism or anything...you know,

the fellow in the jungle that we were talking about before. Even though he
the fellow in the jungle that we were talking about before. Even though he

doesn't have baptism...you know, the the Catechism of the Catholic Church
doesn't have baptism...you know, the the Catechism of the Catholic Church

talks about this in paragraph 1260 and 1261. The Catechism says that those who
talks about this in paragraph 1260 and 1261. The Catechism says that those who

have not been baptized may receive the graces of baptism through that desire
have not been baptized may receive the graces of baptism through that desire

and their cooperation with grace; and the Catechism says they would have received
and their cooperation with grace; and the Catechism says they would have received

baptism if they would have known about it. So you know, that's kind of a
baptism if they would have known about it. So you know, that's kind of a

thumbnail, David, does that help at all? Well, I was more wanting to focus on, like,
thumbnail, David, does that help at all? Well, I was more wanting to focus on, like,

besides just the people of the Church-- even the hierarchical, you know, the Pope
besides just the people of the Church-- even the hierarchical, you know, the Pope

and the Cardinals--is there still more, like a second, like in the Catechism
and the Cardinals--is there still more, like a second, like in the Catechism

770 it says a "visible" and a "spiritual" reality of the Church;
770 it says a "visible" and a "spiritual" reality of the Church;

you know, is there more to it than just the people who have been--who are in
you know, is there more to it than just the people who have been--who are in

the Church or have been in the Church through history? Yeah, absolutely,
the Church or have been in the Church through history? Yeah, absolutely,

David, because what I just said applies here. And I appreciate that
David, because what I just said applies here. And I appreciate that

follow-up, because let's be clear that we have both visible members of the
follow-up, because let's be clear that we have both visible members of the

Church and invisible members--namely, the Church suffering and the Church
Church and invisible members--namely, the Church suffering and the Church

triumphant, right? We have Saints in Heaven who you and I can't see, but they
triumphant, right? We have Saints in Heaven who you and I can't see, but they

are members of the body of Christ, in fact more radically
are members of the body of Christ, in fact more radically

than we are. The members of the Church suffering in Purgatory are members of
than we are. The members of the Church suffering in Purgatory are members of

the Church; and then of course that extends to those that are baptized
the Church; and then of course that extends to those that are baptized

outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church that are truly possibly
outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church that are truly possibly

in a state of grace and such, and again God's the judge of that.
in a state of grace and such, and again God's the judge of that.

Those are members of the Church, even though they are--the Church makes clear,
Those are members of the Church, even though they are--the Church makes clear,

for example in "Lumen Gentium" paragraph 16, if you want to take a look at that,
for example in "Lumen Gentium" paragraph 16, if you want to take a look at that,

David, from the documents of Vatican II, it's an excellent little synopsis there,
David, from the documents of Vatican II, it's an excellent little synopsis there,

but it talks about how that folks can be either related--it uses two different
but it talks about how that folks can be either related--it uses two different

words there in the Latin text--related to the people of God, or even imperfectly
words there in the Latin text--related to the people of God, or even imperfectly

joined to the people of God. Those outside--you know, the unbaptized,
joined to the people of God. Those outside--you know, the unbaptized,

for example--it uses the term "can be related" to the people of God by that
for example--it uses the term "can be related" to the people of God by that

desire that we talked about before, and their cooperation with grace right where
desire that we talked about before, and their cooperation with grace right where

they are. And those who have valid Sacraments, like our Protestant friends
they are. And those who have valid Sacraments, like our Protestant friends

and the Orthodox, are actually joined to us, though in an imperfect union. So all
and the Orthodox, are actually joined to us, though in an imperfect union. So all

of that, my friend involves that invisible reality. Now those of us that
of that, my friend involves that invisible reality. Now those of us that

are Catholic, we're on the registry at our local parish, I can see--I mean I can
are Catholic, we're on the registry at our local parish, I can see--I mean I can

see Chris Check, he's sitting right here, I can see Nick Chamberlain, that are
see Chris Check, he's sitting right here, I can see Nick Chamberlain, that are

sitting out here in the control room, they are visible members that I can look
sitting out here in the control room, they are visible members that I can look

at; but there's all sorts of folks who are either related or joined
at; but there's all sorts of folks who are either related or joined

to us, imperfectly and such, that I can't see, as well as the Church militant and
to us, imperfectly and such, that I can't see, as well as the Church militant and

suffering--er, the Church triumphant and suffering as I said before. Does that
suffering--er, the Church triumphant and suffering as I said before. Does that

help, David? So they're beyond the people, though, there's--the Church
help, David? So they're beyond the people, though, there's--the Church

isn't somewhat of an entity on its own? Sure, it is. Absolutely, it is. The Church
isn't somewhat of an entity on its own? Sure, it is. Absolutely, it is. The Church

is--once again, Ephesians 1:22 and 23, and check out the Catechism, too, in paragraph
is--once again, Ephesians 1:22 and 23, and check out the Catechism, too, in paragraph

830--the Church is the Body of Christ, but we are the mystical Body of Christ, and
830--the Church is the Body of Christ, but we are the mystical Body of Christ, and

so that mystical body includes all that I
so that mystical body includes all that I

mentioned before; but it's not beyond--you know I don't know what you're
mentioned before; but it's not beyond--you know I don't know what you're

getting at there "beyond the people." We're not talking about dogs, cats, birds, and
getting at there "beyond the people." We're not talking about dogs, cats, birds, and

bats here, right? But we're talking about those who are related to, or joined to,
bats here, right? But we're talking about those who are related to, or joined to,

the Church, either imperfectly or more perfectly, that is, those of us
the Church, either imperfectly or more perfectly, that is, those of us

who are members of the Catholic Church formally, have our name signed on a
who are members of the Catholic Church formally, have our name signed on a

registry. Is that what you're getting that, David? Well...kind of. I mean, just like,
registry. Is that what you're getting that, David? Well...kind of. I mean, just like,

if there weren't...like, the Church is an entity somewhat on its own, though, even
if there weren't...like, the Church is an entity somewhat on its own, though, even

independent of the people? Yeah, it's the Body of Christ. It's the
independent of the people? Yeah, it's the Body of Christ. It's the

Body of Christ, that's right. If I leave it, you know, I don't hurt the
Body of Christ, that's right. If I leave it, you know, I don't hurt the

Church whatsoever, I hurt myself. The church is a definitive reality, but it is
Church whatsoever, I hurt myself. The church is a definitive reality, but it is

confined to the Body of Christ. It is the Body of Christ. That is the definitive
confined to the Body of Christ. It is the Body of Christ. That is the definitive

reality, and those of us who--we are either joined to or not joined to that
reality, and those of us who--we are either joined to or not joined to that

definitive reality which is the body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Appreciate
definitive reality which is the body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Appreciate

your call, brother.
your call, brother.