John Hockenberry: It's great to be here with you, Tom.
John Hockenberry: It's great to be here with you, Tom.

And I want to start with a question
And I want to start with a question

that has just been consuming me
that has just been consuming me

since I first became familiar with your work.
since I first became familiar with your work.

In you work there's always this kind of hybrid quality
In you work there's always this kind of hybrid quality

of a natural force
of a natural force

in some sort of interplay with creative force.
in some sort of interplay with creative force.

Are they ever in equilibrium
Are they ever in equilibrium

in the way that you see your work?
in the way that you see your work?

Tom Shannon: Yeah, the subject matter that I'm looking for,
Tom Shannon: Yeah, the subject matter that I'm looking for,

it's usually to solve a question.
it's usually to solve a question.

I had the question popped into my head:
I had the question popped into my head:

What does the cone that connects the sun and the Earth look like
What does the cone that connects the sun and the Earth look like

if you could connect the two spheres?
if you could connect the two spheres?

And in proportion, what would the size of the sphere
And in proportion, what would the size of the sphere

and the length, and what would the taper be to the Earth?
and the length, and what would the taper be to the Earth?

And so I went about and made that sculpture,
And so I went about and made that sculpture,

turning it out of solid bronze.
turning it out of solid bronze.

And I did one that was about 35 feet long.
And I did one that was about 35 feet long.

The sun end was about four inches in diameter,
The sun end was about four inches in diameter,

and then it tapered over about 35 feet
and then it tapered over about 35 feet

to about a millimeter at the Earth end.
to about a millimeter at the Earth end.

And so for me, it was really exciting
And so for me, it was really exciting

just to see what it looks like
just to see what it looks like

if you could step outside and into a larger context,
if you could step outside and into a larger context,

as though you were an astronaut,
as though you were an astronaut,

and see these two things as an object,
and see these two things as an object,

because they are so intimately bound,
because they are so intimately bound,

and one is meaningless without the other.
and one is meaningless without the other.

JH: Is there a relief
JH: Is there a relief

in playing with these forces?
in playing with these forces?

And I'm wondering how much of a sense of discovery there is
And I'm wondering how much of a sense of discovery there is

in playing with these forces.
in playing with these forces.

TS: Well, like the magnetically levitated objects --
TS: Well, like the magnetically levitated objects --

like that silver one there,
like that silver one there,

that was the result
that was the result

of hundreds of experiments with magnets,
of hundreds of experiments with magnets,

trying to find a way to make something float
trying to find a way to make something float

with the least possible connection to the ground.
with the least possible connection to the ground.

So I got it down to just one tether
So I got it down to just one tether

to be able to support that.
to be able to support that.

JH: Now is this electromagnetic here, or are these static?
JH: Now is this electromagnetic here, or are these static?

TS: Those are permanent magnets, yeah.
TS: Those are permanent magnets, yeah.

JH: Because if the power went out, there would just be a big noise.
JH: Because if the power went out, there would just be a big noise.

TS: Yeah.
TS: Yeah.

It's really unsatisfactory having plug-in art.
It's really unsatisfactory having plug-in art.

JH: I agree.
JH: I agree.

TS: The magnetic works
TS: The magnetic works

are a combination of gravity and magnetism,
are a combination of gravity and magnetism,

so it's a kind of mixture of these ambient forces
so it's a kind of mixture of these ambient forces

that influence everything.
that influence everything.

The sun has a tremendous field
The sun has a tremendous field

that extends way beyond the planets
that extends way beyond the planets

and the Earth's magnetic field protects us from the sun.
and the Earth's magnetic field protects us from the sun.

So there's this huge
So there's this huge

invisible shape structures
invisible shape structures

that magnetism takes in the universe.
that magnetism takes in the universe.

But with the pendulum,
But with the pendulum,

it allows me to manifest
it allows me to manifest

these invisible forces
these invisible forces

that are holding the magnets up.
that are holding the magnets up.

My sculptures
My sculptures

are normally very simplified.
are normally very simplified.

I try to refine them down
I try to refine them down

to very simple forms.
to very simple forms.

But the paintings become very complex,
But the paintings become very complex,

because I think the fields
because I think the fields

that are supporting them,
that are supporting them,

they're billowing, and they're interpenetrating,
they're billowing, and they're interpenetrating,

and they're interference patterns.
and they're interference patterns.

JH: And they're non-deterministic.
JH: And they're non-deterministic.

I mean, you don't know necessarily where you're headed when you begin,
I mean, you don't know necessarily where you're headed when you begin,

even though the forces can be calculated.
even though the forces can be calculated.

So the evolution of this --
So the evolution of this --

I gather this isn't your first pendulum.
I gather this isn't your first pendulum.

TS: No. (JH: No.)
TS: No. (JH: No.)

TS: The first one I did was in the late 70's,
TS: The first one I did was in the late 70's,

and I just had a simple cone
and I just had a simple cone

with a spigot at the bottom of it.
with a spigot at the bottom of it.

I threw it into an orbit,
I threw it into an orbit,

and it only had one color,
and it only had one color,

and when it got to the center, the paint kept running out,
and when it got to the center, the paint kept running out,

so I had to run in there,
so I had to run in there,

didn't have any control over the spigot remotely.
didn't have any control over the spigot remotely.

So that told me right away: I need a remote control device.
So that told me right away: I need a remote control device.

But then I started dreaming of having six colors.
But then I started dreaming of having six colors.

I sort of think about it as the DNA --
I sort of think about it as the DNA --

these colors, the red, blue, yellow,
these colors, the red, blue, yellow,

the primary colors and white and black.
the primary colors and white and black.

And if you put them together in different combinations --
And if you put them together in different combinations --

just like printing in a sense,
just like printing in a sense,

like how a magazine color is printed --
like how a magazine color is printed --

and put them under certain forces,
and put them under certain forces,

which is orbiting them
which is orbiting them

or passing them back and forth
or passing them back and forth

or drawing with them,
or drawing with them,

these amazing things started appearing.
these amazing things started appearing.

JH: It looks like we're loaded for bear here.
JH: It looks like we're loaded for bear here.

TS: Yeah, well let's put a couple of canvases.
TS: Yeah, well let's put a couple of canvases.

I'll ask a couple of my sons
I'll ask a couple of my sons

to set up the canvases here.
to set up the canvases here.

I want to just say --
I want to just say --

so this is Jack, Nick and Louie.
so this is Jack, Nick and Louie.

JH: Thanks guys.
JH: Thanks guys.

TS: So here are the --
TS: So here are the --

JH: All right, I'll get out of the way here.
JH: All right, I'll get out of the way here.

TS: I'm just going to throw this into an orbit
TS: I'm just going to throw this into an orbit

and see if I can paint everybody's shoes in the front.
and see if I can paint everybody's shoes in the front.

(Laughter)
(Laughter)

JH: Whoa. That is ...
JH: Whoa. That is ...

ooh, nice.
ooh, nice.

TS: So something like this.
TS: So something like this.

I'm doing this as a demo,
I'm doing this as a demo,

and it's more playful,
and it's more playful,

but inevitably,
but inevitably,

all of this can be used.
all of this can be used.

I can redeem this painting,
I can redeem this painting,

just continuing on,
just continuing on,

doing layers upon layers.
doing layers upon layers.

And I keep it around for a couple of weeks,
And I keep it around for a couple of weeks,

and I'm contemplating it,
and I'm contemplating it,

and I'll do another session with it
and I'll do another session with it

and bring it up to another level,
and bring it up to another level,

where all of this
where all of this

becomes the background, the depth of it.
becomes the background, the depth of it.

JH: That's fantastic.
JH: That's fantastic.

So the valves at the bottom of those tubes there
So the valves at the bottom of those tubes there

are like radio-controlled airplane valves.
are like radio-controlled airplane valves.

TS: Yes, they're servos with cams
TS: Yes, they're servos with cams

that pinch these rubber tubes.
that pinch these rubber tubes.

And they can pinch them very tight and stop it,
And they can pinch them very tight and stop it,

or you can have them wide open.
or you can have them wide open.

And all of the colors
And all of the colors

come out one central port
come out one central port

at the bottom.
at the bottom.

You can always be changing colors, put aluminum paint,
You can always be changing colors, put aluminum paint,

or I could put anything into this.
or I could put anything into this.

It could be tomato sauce,
It could be tomato sauce,

or anything could be dispensed --
or anything could be dispensed --

sand, powders or anything like that.
sand, powders or anything like that.

JH: So many forces there.
JH: So many forces there.

You've got gravity, you've got the centrifugal force,
You've got gravity, you've got the centrifugal force,

you've got the fluid dynamics.
you've got the fluid dynamics.

Each of these beautiful paintings,
Each of these beautiful paintings,

are they images in and of themselves,
are they images in and of themselves,

or are they records
or are they records

of a physical event
of a physical event

called the pendulum approaching the canvas?
called the pendulum approaching the canvas?

TS: Well, this painting here,
TS: Well, this painting here,

I wanted to do something very simple,
I wanted to do something very simple,

a simple, iconic image
a simple, iconic image

of two ripples interfering.
of two ripples interfering.

So the one on the right was done first,
So the one on the right was done first,

and then the one on the left
and then the one on the left

was done over it.
was done over it.

And then I left gaps
And then I left gaps

so you could see the one that was done before.
so you could see the one that was done before.

And then when I did the second one,
And then when I did the second one,

it really disturbed the piece --
it really disturbed the piece --

these big blue lines
these big blue lines

crashing through the center of it --
crashing through the center of it --

and so it created a kind of tension and an overlap.
and so it created a kind of tension and an overlap.

There are lines in front of the one on the right,
There are lines in front of the one on the right,

and there are lines behind the one on the left,
and there are lines behind the one on the left,

and so it takes it into different planes.
and so it takes it into different planes.

What it's also about,
What it's also about,

just the little events,
just the little events,

the events of the interpenetration of --
the events of the interpenetration of --

JH: Two stars, or --
JH: Two stars, or --

TS: Two things that happened --
TS: Two things that happened --

there's an interference pattern, and then a third thing happens.
there's an interference pattern, and then a third thing happens.

There are shapes that come about
There are shapes that come about

just by the marriage
just by the marriage

of two events that are happening,
of two events that are happening,

and I'm very interested in that.
and I'm very interested in that.

Like the occurrence of moire patterns.
Like the occurrence of moire patterns.

Like this green one,
Like this green one,

this is a painting I did about 10 years ago,
this is a painting I did about 10 years ago,

but it has some --
but it has some --

see, in the upper third --
see, in the upper third --

there are these moires and interference patterns
there are these moires and interference patterns

that are radio kind of imagery.
that are radio kind of imagery.

And that's something that in painting
And that's something that in painting

I've never seen done.
I've never seen done.

I've never seen a representation
I've never seen a representation

of a kind of radio interference patterns,
of a kind of radio interference patterns,

which are so ubiquitous
which are so ubiquitous

and such an important part of our lives.
and such an important part of our lives.

JH: Is that a literal part of the image,
JH: Is that a literal part of the image,

or is my eye making that interference pattern --
or is my eye making that interference pattern --

is my eye completing that interference pattern?
is my eye completing that interference pattern?

TS: It is the paint actually,
TS: It is the paint actually,

makes it real.
makes it real.

It's really manifested there.
It's really manifested there.

If I throw a very concentric circle,
If I throw a very concentric circle,

or concentric ellipse,
or concentric ellipse,

it just dutifully makes
it just dutifully makes

these evenly spaced lines,
these evenly spaced lines,

which get closer and closer together,
which get closer and closer together,

which describes how gravity works.
which describes how gravity works.

There's something very appealing
There's something very appealing

about the exactitude of science
about the exactitude of science

that I really enjoy.
that I really enjoy.

And I love the shapes that I see
And I love the shapes that I see

in scientific observations
in scientific observations

and apparatus,
and apparatus,

especially astronomical forms
especially astronomical forms

and the idea of the vastness of it,
and the idea of the vastness of it,

the scale,
the scale,

is very interesting to me.
is very interesting to me.

My focus in recent years
My focus in recent years

has kind of shifted more toward biology.
has kind of shifted more toward biology.

Some of these paintings, when you look at them very close,
Some of these paintings, when you look at them very close,

odd things appear
odd things appear

that really look like horses or birds
that really look like horses or birds

or crocodiles, elephants.
or crocodiles, elephants.

There are lots of things that appear.
There are lots of things that appear.

When you look into it, it's sort of like looking at cloud patterns,
When you look into it, it's sort of like looking at cloud patterns,

but sometimes they're very modeled and highly rendered.
but sometimes they're very modeled and highly rendered.

And then there are all these forms
And then there are all these forms

that we don't know what they are,
that we don't know what they are,

but they're equally well-resolved
but they're equally well-resolved

and complex.
and complex.

So I think, conceivably, those could be predictive.
So I think, conceivably, those could be predictive.

Because since it has the ability
Because since it has the ability

to make forms
to make forms

that look like forms that we're familiar with
that look like forms that we're familiar with

in biology,
in biology,

it's also making other forms that we're not familiar with.
it's also making other forms that we're not familiar with.

And maybe it's the kind of forms
And maybe it's the kind of forms

we'll discover underneath the surface of Mars,
we'll discover underneath the surface of Mars,

where there are probably lakes
where there are probably lakes

with fish swimming under the surface.
with fish swimming under the surface.

JH: Oh, let's hope so. Oh, my God, let's.
JH: Oh, let's hope so. Oh, my God, let's.

Oh, please, yes. Oh, I'm so there.
Oh, please, yes. Oh, I'm so there.

You know, it seems
You know, it seems

at this stage in your life,
at this stage in your life,

you also very personally
you also very personally

are in this state of confrontation
are in this state of confrontation

with a sort of dissonant --
with a sort of dissonant --

I suppose it's an electromagnetic force
I suppose it's an electromagnetic force

that somehow governs your Parkinson's
that somehow governs your Parkinson's

and this creative force
and this creative force

that is both the artist
that is both the artist

who is in the here and now
who is in the here and now

and this sort of arc of your whole life.
and this sort of arc of your whole life.

Is that relevant to your work?
Is that relevant to your work?

TS: As it turns out,
TS: As it turns out,

this device kind of comes in handy,
this device kind of comes in handy,

because I don't have to have
because I don't have to have

the fine motor skills to do,
the fine motor skills to do,

that I can operate slides,
that I can operate slides,

which is more of a mental process.
which is more of a mental process.

I'm looking at it and making decisions:
I'm looking at it and making decisions:

It needs more red, it needs more blue,
It needs more red, it needs more blue,

it needs a different shape.
it needs a different shape.

And so I make these creative decisions
And so I make these creative decisions

and can execute them
and can execute them

in a much, much simpler way.
in a much, much simpler way.

I mean, I've got the symptoms.
I mean, I've got the symptoms.

I guess Parkinson's kind of creeps up over the years,
I guess Parkinson's kind of creeps up over the years,

but at a certain point you start seeing the symptoms.
but at a certain point you start seeing the symptoms.

In my case,
In my case,

my left hand has a significant tremor
my left hand has a significant tremor

and my left leg also.
and my left leg also.

I'm left-handed, and so I draw.
I'm left-handed, and so I draw.

All my creations
All my creations

really start on small drawings,
really start on small drawings,

which I have thousands of,
which I have thousands of,

and it's my way of just thinking.
and it's my way of just thinking.

I draw with a simple pencil,
I draw with a simple pencil,

and at first, the Parkinson's
and at first, the Parkinson's

was really upsetting,
was really upsetting,

because I couldn't get the pencil to stand still.
because I couldn't get the pencil to stand still.

JH: So you're not a gatekeeper for these forces.
JH: So you're not a gatekeeper for these forces.

You don't think of yourself as the master of these forces.
You don't think of yourself as the master of these forces.

You think of yourself as the servant.
You think of yourself as the servant.

TS: Nature is -- well, it's a godsend.
TS: Nature is -- well, it's a godsend.

It just has so much in it.
It just has so much in it.

And I think nature
And I think nature

wants to express itself
wants to express itself

in the sense that we are nature,
in the sense that we are nature,

humans are of the universe.
humans are of the universe.

The universe is in our mind,
The universe is in our mind,

and our minds are in the universe.
and our minds are in the universe.

And we are expressions
And we are expressions

of the universe, basically.
of the universe, basically.

As humans,
As humans,

ultimately being part of the universe,
ultimately being part of the universe,

we're kind of the spokespeople
we're kind of the spokespeople

or the observer part
or the observer part

of the constituency
of the constituency

of the universe.
of the universe.

And to interface with it,
And to interface with it,

with a device that lets these forces
with a device that lets these forces

that are everywhere
that are everywhere

act and show what they can do,
act and show what they can do,

giving them pigment and paint just like an artist,
giving them pigment and paint just like an artist,

it's a good ally.
it's a good ally.

It's a terrific studio assistant.
It's a terrific studio assistant.

JH: Well, I love the idea
JH: Well, I love the idea

that somewhere within this idea
that somewhere within this idea

of fine motion and control
of fine motion and control

with the traditional skills
with the traditional skills

that you have with your hand,
that you have with your hand,

some sort of more elemental force gets revealed,
some sort of more elemental force gets revealed,

and that's the beauty here.
and that's the beauty here.

Tom, thank you so much. It's been really, really great.
Tom, thank you so much. It's been really, really great.

TS: Thank you, John.
TS: Thank you, John.

(Applause)
(Applause)