SPEAKER 1: We're at The Cloisters
SPEAKER 1: We're at The Cloisters

at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

And we're looking at a breathtaking series
And we're looking at a breathtaking series

of tapestries that date to about 1500,
of tapestries that date to about 1500,

give or take five years on either side.
give or take five years on either side.

And we're looking specifically at what
And we're looking specifically at what

we think is the last of the series of tapestries,
we think is the last of the series of tapestries,

except that we're not even sure of that.
except that we're not even sure of that.

SPEAKER 2: We're sure of very little,
SPEAKER 2: We're sure of very little,

except that the tapestries are very popular.
except that the tapestries are very popular.

SPEAKER 1: And gorgeous.
SPEAKER 1: And gorgeous.

SPEAKER 2: And the unicorn is very popular and much loved
SPEAKER 2: And the unicorn is very popular and much loved

SPEAKER 1: Yes.
SPEAKER 1: Yes.

So this is the unicorn in captivity.
So this is the unicorn in captivity.

There have been many, many theories about the narrative,
There have been many, many theories about the narrative,

about the origin, about the patron,
about the origin, about the patron,

about the source of these tapestries.
about the source of these tapestries.

And we really know almost nothing.
And we really know almost nothing.

SPEAKER 2: That's one of those things that happens sometimes
SPEAKER 2: That's one of those things that happens sometimes

in art history, where we can find lots of clues,
in art history, where we can find lots of clues,

and sometimes the clues don't add up.
and sometimes the clues don't add up.

SPEAKER 1: We do know we're looking
SPEAKER 1: We do know we're looking

at this extraordinary, tall representation of a unicorn
at this extraordinary, tall representation of a unicorn

captured in this circular fence that's so low, we imagine,
captured in this circular fence that's so low, we imagine,

if we look at it literally, that the unicorn--
if we look at it literally, that the unicorn--

SPEAKER 2: He could easily hop out.
SPEAKER 2: He could easily hop out.

SPEAKER 1: He could hop out.
SPEAKER 1: He could hop out.

But he's chained to a pomegranate tree.
But he's chained to a pomegranate tree.

And I guess it's probably worth noting
And I guess it's probably worth noting

that although the pomegranate tree's fruit is identifiable,
that although the pomegranate tree's fruit is identifiable,

the leaves are not what a pomegranate's leaves look like.
the leaves are not what a pomegranate's leaves look like.

But so much of the rest of the surface of the tapestry
But so much of the rest of the surface of the tapestry

is taken up by these careful botanical studies.
is taken up by these careful botanical studies.

And I think that we've identified nearly everything
And I think that we've identified nearly everything

in terms of what kinds of plants.
in terms of what kinds of plants.

SPEAKER 2: The plant life is completely identifiable
SPEAKER 2: The plant life is completely identifiable

in a long tradition of Northern Renaissance painting
in a long tradition of Northern Renaissance painting

and manuscript illumination, very close attention
and manuscript illumination, very close attention

to actual species of plants.
to actual species of plants.

We see that in Northern Renaissance painting,
We see that in Northern Renaissance painting,

like Van Eyck.
like Van Eyck.

SPEAKER 1: But actually, it's more than that here.
SPEAKER 1: But actually, it's more than that here.

Because in this set of tapestries,
Because in this set of tapestries,

the plants that are in the meadows
the plants that are in the meadows

are, in fact, the plants that one would find in the meadows.
are, in fact, the plants that one would find in the meadows.

The plants there by the water would
The plants there by the water would

be those that are water loving, et cetera.
be those that are water loving, et cetera.

The shade plants are in the forest.
The shade plants are in the forest.

SPEAKER 2: Mhm.
SPEAKER 2: Mhm.

SPEAKER 1: So there's a real attention
SPEAKER 1: So there's a real attention

to that being important information to convey.
to that being important information to convey.

SPEAKER 2: But strangely, in this particular one,
SPEAKER 2: But strangely, in this particular one,

and in one other from the series,
and in one other from the series,

we are not in a real landscape at all.
we are not in a real landscape at all.

We have a very flat background.
We have a very flat background.

SPEAKER 1: Very abstracted, really.
SPEAKER 1: Very abstracted, really.

SPEAKER 2: Formed by these very real plants.
SPEAKER 2: Formed by these very real plants.

So there's no hills, no landscapes,
So there's no hills, no landscapes,

no architecture in the background.
no architecture in the background.

SPEAKER 1: Well, we are, after all, looking at a unicorn.
SPEAKER 1: Well, we are, after all, looking at a unicorn.

SPEAKER 2: We are.
SPEAKER 2: We are.

But in the other panels, we do have figures and castles
But in the other panels, we do have figures and castles

and sky and water and other animals.
and sky and water and other animals.

SPEAKER 1: So perhaps this is the most allegorical of all.
SPEAKER 1: So perhaps this is the most allegorical of all.

SPEAKER 2: Maybe.
SPEAKER 2: Maybe.

SPEAKER 1: And I think there's a lot of attention that
SPEAKER 1: And I think there's a lot of attention that

has been paid to this particular tapestry
has been paid to this particular tapestry

and what its meanings might be.
and what its meanings might be.

SPEAKER 2: Well, it doesn't quite fit, right?
SPEAKER 2: Well, it doesn't quite fit, right?

Because the rest of the story tells
Because the rest of the story tells

us of the successful hunt of a unicorn.
us of the successful hunt of a unicorn.

SPEAKER 1: And even the killing of the unicorn.
SPEAKER 1: And even the killing of the unicorn.

SPEAKER 2: Right.
SPEAKER 2: Right.

And so in this last, maybe, last panel,
And so in this last, maybe, last panel,

is this the resurrected unicorn?
is this the resurrected unicorn?

SPEAKER 1: Well, that's certainly one long tradition,
SPEAKER 1: Well, that's certainly one long tradition,

that the unicorn is an allegory of Christ.
that the unicorn is an allegory of Christ.

SPEAKER 2: Right, a creature who is very pure
SPEAKER 2: Right, a creature who is very pure

and who can only be caught by a virgin.
and who can only be caught by a virgin.

SPEAKER 1: Who is symbolized, of course, as Mary.
SPEAKER 1: Who is symbolized, of course, as Mary.

SPEAKER 2: The Virgin Mary, right.
SPEAKER 2: The Virgin Mary, right.

And so in medieval stories, medieval mythology,
And so in medieval stories, medieval mythology,

the unicorn, in a way, comes to represent Christ.
the unicorn, in a way, comes to represent Christ.

And the Virgin who can capture the unicorn is Mary
And the Virgin who can capture the unicorn is Mary

SPEAKER 1: And so we've got that overlay,
SPEAKER 1: And so we've got that overlay,

but we've got some contradictions here, also,
but we've got some contradictions here, also,

right?
right?

SPEAKER 2: We do.
SPEAKER 2: We do.

Because in most of the series, the unicorn is being hunted.
Because in most of the series, the unicorn is being hunted.

SPEAKER 1: And persecuted.
SPEAKER 1: And persecuted.

SPEAKER 2: And captured.
SPEAKER 2: And captured.

SPEAKER 1: But that works.
SPEAKER 1: But that works.

We have the Roman soldiers persecuting Christ.
We have the Roman soldiers persecuting Christ.

SPEAKER 2: Right, there are allegories.
SPEAKER 2: Right, there are allegories.

There are parallels there.
There are parallels there.

SPEAKER 1: We have the hunt here.
SPEAKER 1: We have the hunt here.

And so that works.
And so that works.

But here, we have the pomegranate tree,
But here, we have the pomegranate tree,

which is a traditional symbol of fertility.
which is a traditional symbol of fertility.

SPEAKER 2: And marriage.
SPEAKER 2: And marriage.

SPEAKER 1: The idea of the golden chain often representing
SPEAKER 1: The idea of the golden chain often representing

marriage.
marriage.

SPEAKER 2: You know, maybe the unicorn is the betrothed.
SPEAKER 2: You know, maybe the unicorn is the betrothed.

SPEAKER 1: So is there a kind of eliding of symbol here?
SPEAKER 1: So is there a kind of eliding of symbol here?

Is there a kind of overlay of narratives?
Is there a kind of overlay of narratives?

SPEAKER 2: Seems like there are two traditions coming together,
SPEAKER 2: Seems like there are two traditions coming together,

a tradition where the unicorn is Christ-- and this
a tradition where the unicorn is Christ-- and this

is interpreted in a very Christian context-- and then
is interpreted in a very Christian context-- and then

a very secular context of the unicorn
a very secular context of the unicorn

as the beloved who is happy to be captured.
as the beloved who is happy to be captured.

So it's sort of one of those things
So it's sort of one of those things

where it's got so much meaning.
where it's got so much meaning.

And it may be that it's a 21st century
And it may be that it's a 21st century

search for "the" meaning.
search for "the" meaning.

But maybe it never had one meaning.
But maybe it never had one meaning.

Maybe its meaning was always multifarious.
Maybe its meaning was always multifarious.

SPEAKER 1: And perhaps open.
SPEAKER 1: And perhaps open.

I think that that's right.
I think that that's right.

Of course, it would help enormously
Of course, it would help enormously

if we knew the occasion and the patrons for which this
if we knew the occasion and the patrons for which this

was made.
was made.

We don't.
We don't.

SPEAKER 2: Perhaps a wedding, who knows.
SPEAKER 2: Perhaps a wedding, who knows.

SPEAKER 1: There is an A and there's
SPEAKER 1: There is an A and there's

a backward E in each of the panels--
a backward E in each of the panels--

SPEAKER 2: In every one.
SPEAKER 2: In every one.

SPEAKER 1: --in each of the panels, each of the tapestries.
SPEAKER 1: --in each of the panels, each of the tapestries.

There's been much scholarly disagreement
There's been much scholarly disagreement

as to who those are for.
as to who those are for.

The tapestries themselves are gloriously rich,
The tapestries themselves are gloriously rich,

brightly colored.
brightly colored.

And, in fact, in a recent restoration,
And, in fact, in a recent restoration,

the backing was taken off and much
the backing was taken off and much

of the richness of the color was photographed.
of the richness of the color was photographed.

And it's really breathtaking.
And it's really breathtaking.

Even the front of the tapestries are just glorious.
Even the front of the tapestries are just glorious.

SPEAKER 2: And of course, tapestries
SPEAKER 2: And of course, tapestries

would have been hung in a room that
would have been hung in a room that

was dark, like this one, right?
was dark, like this one, right?

SPEAKER 1: Yes.
SPEAKER 1: Yes.

SPEAKER 2: That we're in, and would
SPEAKER 2: That we're in, and would

have served as a way of insulating the room
have served as a way of insulating the room

and keeping the warmth in.
and keeping the warmth in.

SPEAKER 1: Yes, they were quite practical.
SPEAKER 1: Yes, they were quite practical.

SPEAKER 2: But it's important to go up and look closely.
SPEAKER 2: But it's important to go up and look closely.

Because when you look at the flowers and the animals
Because when you look at the flowers and the animals

and really try to decode the narrative,
and really try to decode the narrative,

there's a real richness that unfolds, that is--
there's a real richness that unfolds, that is--

SPEAKER 1: Just the sensuality of the surface.
SPEAKER 1: Just the sensuality of the surface.

SPEAKER 2: Yeah.
SPEAKER 2: Yeah.

SPEAKER 1: I think that that's absolutely right.
SPEAKER 1: I think that that's absolutely right.

And this is not only dyed wool, but it's also silk.
And this is not only dyed wool, but it's also silk.

SPEAKER 2: Silk.
SPEAKER 2: Silk.

And I think it's interesting, this idea
And I think it's interesting, this idea

of this creature that's imaginary,
of this creature that's imaginary,

that's pure, that can't be caught.
that's pure, that can't be caught.

We can't see it.
We can't see it.

We can't find it.
We can't find it.

SPEAKER 1: And maybe even our modern understanding.
SPEAKER 1: And maybe even our modern understanding.

SPEAKER 2: Yeah.
SPEAKER 2: Yeah.

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