the world until now has been religious it's been run by religion it's been
the world until now has been religious it's been run by religion it's been

dominated by religion that's changing seeing in Reverse we're seeing people
dominated by religion that's changing seeing in Reverse we're seeing people

saying we don't need religion we don't need priests on our back telling us
saying we don't need religion we don't need priests on our back telling us

what are the main objectives to the National Secular society well obviously
what are the main objectives to the National Secular society well obviously

because Britain is a good an established church we need to separate that from the
because Britain is a good an established church we need to separate that from the

state we need to have a secular state either on the model of the Frankish
state we need to have a secular state either on the model of the Frankish

laser day or the American separation clause that they have in their
laser day or the American separation clause that they have in their

constitution or maybe something between the two so do you think that a British
constitution or maybe something between the two so do you think that a British

constitution should perhaps be written where the church and state are separated
constitution should perhaps be written where the church and state are separated

absolutely I mean there is talk of a written constitution and I think it's if
absolutely I mean there is talk of a written constitution and I think it's if

it ever comes to the fore I mean politics is up in the air at the moment
it ever comes to the fore I mean politics is up in the air at the moment

if the constitutional debate gets going in this country the church will try to
if the constitutional debate gets going in this country the church will try to

insert itself it always does but I think that will be a lost cause
insert itself it always does but I think that will be a lost cause

for them I think we will have a secular Constitution you believe so yes how
for them I think we will have a secular Constitution you believe so yes how

would you like to see the National Secular society develop over the next 10
would you like to see the National Secular society develop over the next 10

years I'd like to see us be able to move away from the atheism the fighting for
years I'd like to see us be able to move away from the atheism the fighting for

atheism that a lot of our members seem to think we're there for they seem to
atheism that a lot of our members seem to think we're there for they seem to

think no part of Dawkins incorporated you know it's our job to promote the
think no part of Dawkins incorporated you know it's our job to promote the

rational atheistic scientific worldview and although we support it I don't think
rational atheistic scientific worldview and although we support it I don't think

that's what the NSS is about we're there actually is a political pressure group
that's what the NSS is about we're there actually is a political pressure group

looking to create this secular Constitution and to remove the
looking to create this secular Constitution and to remove the

privileges that religion has from our public life so you wouldn't have an
privileges that religion has from our public life so you wouldn't have an

established church you wouldn't have faiths running the schools at the public
established church you wouldn't have faiths running the schools at the public

expense you wouldn't have Catholic hospitals or anything like that you
expense you wouldn't have Catholic hospitals or anything like that you

would have a completely neutral public sphere as they have in France you can't
would have a completely neutral public sphere as they have in France you can't

go to a hospital in France and say this is you know I'm a Muslim I want to be
go to a hospital in France and say this is you know I'm a Muslim I want to be

treated differently we'll do it how long did you atheist
treated differently we'll do it how long did you atheist

face loves oh I should think about 10-15 years and when does it finish - yeah I'm
face loves oh I should think about 10-15 years and when does it finish - yeah I'm

it's only since since the whole topic you know Dawkins sort of unleashed this
it's only since since the whole topic you know Dawkins sort of unleashed this

great flood of atheism and debate about atheism and it was fascinating but I
great flood of atheism and debate about atheism and it was fascinating but I

have reached the conclusion that it's sterile and that he can't go anywhere
have reached the conclusion that it's sterile and that he can't go anywhere

somebody came to me and he said you know is this what secularism is about because
somebody came to me and he said you know is this what secularism is about because

I was I was all you know into the god bashing
I was I was all you know into the god bashing

you know it's great this you know you can really let rip and I've got a
you know it's great this you know you can really let rip and I've got a

platform to do it from now but then I start to think I'm present to the
platform to do it from now but then I start to think I'm present to the

National Secular society and it's this really what I'm supposed to be doing so
National Secular society and it's this really what I'm supposed to be doing so

what do you say to people who say that atheism is a religion I said they don't
what do you say to people who say that atheism is a religion I said they don't

know what they're talking about atheism is not a religion how can it be a
know what they're talking about atheism is not a religion how can it be a

religion it's just you know a lack of belief in God
religion it's just you know a lack of belief in God

there are philosophies that are attached to atheism like humanism which you could
there are philosophies that are attached to atheism like humanism which you could

say is a kind of pseudo religion or proton religion and I don't regard
say is a kind of pseudo religion or proton religion and I don't regard

myself as a humanist - don't but that reason because I I suddenly
myself as a humanist - don't but that reason because I I suddenly

found somebody same to me one day that's not a very humanist thing to say when I
found somebody same to me one day that's not a very humanist thing to say when I

voiced an opinion that was rather harsh and I said who decided what what is
voiced an opinion that was rather harsh and I said who decided what what is

right for a humanist to say and suddenly I realized that they got pamphlets about
right for a humanist to say and suddenly I realized that they got pamphlets about

what humanists believe I thought no I don't want this so that's really a
what humanists believe I thought no I don't want this so that's really a

little dogmatic yourself absolutely it becomes a kind a kind of religion itself
little dogmatic yourself absolutely it becomes a kind a kind of religion itself

what's your view on faith schools
what's your view on faith schools

well there are several objections the first of which is the ghettoization of
well there are several objections the first of which is the ghettoization of

children or we need to break down the walls of those ghetto is that all
children or we need to break down the walls of those ghetto is that all

naturally and one of the ways is for children to get to know each other very
naturally and one of the ways is for children to get to know each other very

early on there's been some research done into the way children very young
early on there's been some research done into the way children very young

children react to each other and it turns out that until they're about five
children react to each other and it turns out that until they're about five

or six they're not actually aware that they're different from each other
or six they're not actually aware that they're different from each other

they're not aware of color and religious differences and cultural differences and
they're not aware of color and religious differences and cultural differences and

they don't make those distinctions they they judge their friends on whether they
they don't make those distinctions they they judge their friends on whether they

are friends whether they like them or not after that period they start to pick
are friends whether they like them or not after that period they start to pick

up what happened what's happening around them so if their parents are racist they
up what happened what's happening around them so if their parents are racist they

will pick up she's black oh you know he weighs funny clothes or I don't like his
will pick up she's black oh you know he weighs funny clothes or I don't like his

name and I think that's that's when the problems begin and by categorizing
name and I think that's that's when the problems begin and by categorizing

children by their parents religion and saying you are a Muslim and sticking
children by their parents religion and saying you are a Muslim and sticking

them in a school that drills that into them every moment of the day and not so
them in a school that drills that into them every moment of the day and not so

much in Christian schools but it does happen there is an element of
much in Christian schools but it does happen there is an element of

indoctrination I think that that is entirely the wrong way to structure
indoctrination I think that that is entirely the wrong way to structure

society we've got to get young people together to make cross-cultural
society we've got to get young people together to make cross-cultural

friendships and relationships we can't allow them just to be separated I think
friendships and relationships we can't allow them just to be separated I think

faith schools are an abomination the very concept of them should free
faith schools are an abomination the very concept of them should free

expression have any limitations yes but they have got to be very very few and
expression have any limitations yes but they have got to be very very few and

far between I think there's something to be said for the libel laws in the sense
far between I think there's something to be said for the libel laws in the sense

that if you ruin somebody's reputation by lying about them to the extent that
that if you ruin somebody's reputation by lying about them to the extent that

they can't living then that that should be legal
they can't living then that that should be legal

but beyond that I think he really has to be open season we're at the beginning of
but beyond that I think he really has to be open season we're at the beginning of

the revolution and I think it's necessary for people to be provoked to
the revolution and I think it's necessary for people to be provoked to

be challenged even insulted and offended and satirized and whatever meetings are
be challenged even insulted and offended and satirized and whatever meetings are

used to do it I think legitimate you consider the comedian pat condell
used to do it I think legitimate you consider the comedian pat condell

speeches on this land to be two antagonistic the very forthright shall
speeches on this land to be two antagonistic the very forthright shall

we say and if you listen carefully to what he's saying it's actually quite
we say and if you listen carefully to what he's saying it's actually quite

sensible it's quite reasonable and rational and he's not anti-muslim his
sensible it's quite reasonable and rational and he's not anti-muslim his

anti Islam Islamist he hates the the head-banging extremists like the way
anti Islam Islamist he hates the the head-banging extremists like the way

that we all do but he is prepared to say it do you believe as first gear builders
that we all do but he is prepared to say it do you believe as first gear builders

of Holland that Islam is a threat to the Western world
of Holland that Islam is a threat to the Western world

I think Islamism is a threat that is to say the politicization of Islam some
I think Islamism is a threat that is to say the politicization of Islam some

people would argue of course that Islam is a political system as well as a
people would argue of course that Islam is a political system as well as a

religious system and indeed it is in some places but I think we could we
religious system and indeed it is in some places but I think we could we

could create an Islam in Britain that is about faith and it's not about politics
could create an Islam in Britain that is about faith and it's not about politics

you know you you there are schools of Islam that take that view and I think we
you know you you there are schools of Islam that take that view and I think we

could encourage them to to dominate rather than making allowances constantly
could encourage them to to dominate rather than making allowances constantly

for these Islamists the political politicians who want to impose Islam in
for these Islamists the political politicians who want to impose Islam in

its strictest were harvest four-on-two under people who don't wanted
its strictest were harvest four-on-two under people who don't wanted

and finally how can people get involved in and promote the circular circles I
and finally how can people get involved in and promote the circular circles I

think you need to get involved in the community you have to get become an MP
think you need to get involved in the community you have to get become an MP

become a counselor become a member of your school's board of governors
become a counselor become a member of your school's board of governors

whatever it is you know get involved in somewhere where you can make secularism
whatever it is you know get involved in somewhere where you can make secularism

count and you can make its influence felt that's what religion does you know
count and you can make its influence felt that's what religion does you know

you've got religious people dominating Parliament because they are prepared to
you've got religious people dominating Parliament because they are prepared to

stand as MPs we've got them dominating local authorities because they're
stand as MPs we've got them dominating local authorities because they're

prepared to be councillors and in schools similarly you know you've got to
prepared to be councillors and in schools similarly you know you've got to

put our secularism into effect
put our secularism into effect