Howdy folks I'm Hank Sheffer and welcome to  another true life story right here with Larry  
Howdy folks I'm Hank Sheffer and welcome to  another true life story right here with Larry  

Hedrick on mysteries of the superstition mountains  the legend of Apache leap better known as the  
Hedrick on mysteries of the superstition mountains  the legend of Apache leap better known as the  

legend of the Apache tears there's two versions  to this story one of them is the one that tourists  
legend of the Apache tears there's two versions  to this story one of them is the one that tourists  

are given when they buy a piece of  jewelry made out of Apache tears  
are given when they buy a piece of  jewelry made out of Apache tears  

and then there's the longer version the short  version runs something like the us army trapped  
and then there's the longer version the short  version runs something like the us army trapped  

a band of Apaches on top of a mountain and rather  than surrender they leaped to their deaths and the  
a band of Apaches on top of a mountain and rather  than surrender they leaped to their deaths and the  

wit the widows and wives of the lost their tears  were absorbed by the obsidian of the Apache tears  
wit the widows and wives of the lost their tears  were absorbed by the obsidian of the Apache tears  

that's the short version that everybody gets  and when these people that buy jewelry go back  
that's the short version that everybody gets  and when these people that buy jewelry go back  

to their home country and somebody says what's  that they get the legend just exactly that way  
to their home country and somebody says what's  that they get the legend just exactly that way  

and it's well known all over the world the  long version has a lot more information in it  
and it's well known all over the world the  long version has a lot more information in it  

that it mentions General Stoneman it mentions  Camp Pinall or Picket Post which those  
that it mentions General Stoneman it mentions  Camp Pinall or Picket Post which those  

camps were the names were used interchangeably it  suggests that the fight actually started at the  
camps were the names were used interchangeably it  suggests that the fight actually started at the  

base of the mountain and the Apaches knew a way  to get to the top well Stoneman, General Stoneman  
base of the mountain and the Apaches knew a way  to get to the top well Stoneman, General Stoneman  

when he established Camp Pinal at picket  post about five miles west of superior  
when he established Camp Pinal at picket  post about five miles west of superior  

he immediately started to work on what  is called today as Stoneman's grade  
he immediately started to work on what  is called today as Stoneman's grade  

he needed to build a road from Camp Pinal up  to what we call the top of the world today  
he needed to build a road from Camp Pinal up  to what we call the top of the world today  

it's the highest elevation from where you  come from superior till you drop off down  
it's the highest elevation from where you  come from superior till you drop off down  

in the globe and the reason for the establishing  of snowman's grade was the for the mobility of  
in the globe and the reason for the establishing  of snowman's grade was the for the mobility of  

troops to respond to Indian uprisings that uh that  may occur and to avoid the use of Devil's Canyon,  
troops to respond to Indian uprisings that uh that  may occur and to avoid the use of Devil's Canyon,  

Devils Canyon is an absolutely wonderful marvelous  beautiful place and it but it it floods the  
Devils Canyon is an absolutely wonderful marvelous  beautiful place and it but it it floods the  

Queen Creek runs right down through Devil's Canyon  and it does a lot of flooding and therefore just  
Queen Creek runs right down through Devil's Canyon  and it does a lot of flooding and therefore just  

exactly when you need a path they can't use it  plus the fact that in order to build in Devil's  
exactly when you need a path they can't use it  plus the fact that in order to build in Devil's  

Canyon you need modern equipment their soldiers  could not move it's totally boulder strewn and  
Canyon you need modern equipment their soldiers  could not move it's totally boulder strewn and  

it's just impossible to build a road in Devils  Canyon, Devils Canyon is also at the north end  
it's just impossible to build a road in Devils  Canyon, Devils Canyon is also at the north end  

of the very mountain that Apache leap took  place in so the long version of the story  
of the very mountain that Apache leap took  place in so the long version of the story  

also mentions that there were 75 Indians  involved in this this affair in 2013 there  
also mentions that there were 75 Indians  involved in this this affair in 2013 there  

was an archaeologist that gave it a lecture at the  Tempe Historical Society and he just he displayed  
was an archaeologist that gave it a lecture at the  Tempe Historical Society and he just he displayed  

brass cartridges that he found at the site on top  of the leap i couldn't find any information about  
brass cartridges that he found at the site on top  of the leap i couldn't find any information about  

the caliber of the of the um of the shells because  he also mentioned the date of 1877 and that the  
the caliber of the of the um of the shells because  he also mentioned the date of 1877 and that the  

the shells that he found the brass cartridges  did not match the date of 1871 formerly mentioned  
the shells that he found the brass cartridges  did not match the date of 1871 formerly mentioned  

i you know during the battle of skull cave the  primary weapon of the u.s soldiers was sharps  
i you know during the battle of skull cave the  primary weapon of the u.s soldiers was sharps  

rifles that had been converted from  paper cartridges to brass cartridges  
rifles that had been converted from  paper cartridges to brass cartridges  

and they had a smattering of Remington rolling  blocks the Sharps with a 50-70 caliber and the  
and they had a smattering of Remington rolling  blocks the Sharps with a 50-70 caliber and the  

rolling blocks had a number of different  calibers 43-44 but they also had 50-70  
rolling blocks had a number of different  calibers 43-44 but they also had 50-70  

and I would assume the army would stick with the  same kind of a cartridge so they didn't have to  
and I would assume the army would stick with the  same kind of a cartridge so they didn't have to  

stock all different kinds of of ammunition but if  that particular brass that he displayed was 45 70  
stock all different kinds of of ammunition but if  that particular brass that he displayed was 45 70  

that meant that they were working with the  trapdoor rifle which didn't come out until 1873  
that meant that they were working with the  trapdoor rifle which didn't come out until 1873  

and by the time it was issued to soldiers in the  west uh it would have been about 1875 or or later  
and by the time it was issued to soldiers in the  west uh it would have been about 1875 or or later  

and if that would if it was 45-70 brass that  he found that would establish the date pretty  
and if that would if it was 45-70 brass that  he found that would establish the date pretty  

well but it really doesn't matter the finding  of military brass on the hill which this man  
well but it really doesn't matter the finding  of military brass on the hill which this man  

explained he found brass right up at the very  edge of the cliff and some of the brass was  
explained he found brass right up at the very  edge of the cliff and some of the brass was  

down at the bottom of the cliff which indicated  that the soldiers were firing down the cliff  
down at the bottom of the cliff which indicated  that the soldiers were firing down the cliff  

and they certainly weren't shooting dead people  if the Apaches had found a way up the cliff he  
and they certainly weren't shooting dead people  if the Apaches had found a way up the cliff he  

assumed that they were escaping and that's why  the soldiers were firing at him from the cliff  
assumed that they were escaping and that's why  the soldiers were firing at him from the cliff  

i was convinced that whatever caliber shells that  were cartridges that were found during that search  
i was convinced that whatever caliber shells that  were cartridges that were found during that search  

would answer the question of the date that  this occurred because in a speech that the  
would answer the question of the date that  this occurred because in a speech that the  

archaeologists had made in the Tempe Historical  society he mentioned that the cartridges that were  
archaeologists had made in the Tempe Historical  society he mentioned that the cartridges that were  

found did not match the date that was commonly  given for Apache leap and that it was the year  
found did not match the date that was commonly  given for Apache leap and that it was the year  

1871 which would have put this in the time  period of general Stoneman at Camp Pinal  
1871 which would have put this in the time  period of general Stoneman at Camp Pinal  

as it turns out there were two battles fought  at the site of Apache leap one below the cliffs  
as it turns out there were two battles fought  at the site of Apache leap one below the cliffs  

and one up on top the cliffs a  couple of names surfaced that really  
and one up on top the cliffs a  couple of names surfaced that really  

surprised me and you might never recognize from  other episodes that we've done on Picacho Pass  
surprised me and you might never recognize from  other episodes that we've done on Picacho Pass  

because the first battle took place in 1866 and  was led by a man named john d walker walker was  
because the first battle took place in 1866 and  was led by a man named john d walker walker was  

part of the California Column that came in here  in 1862 to deal with the Confederates that were in  
part of the California Column that came in here  in 1862 to deal with the Confederates that were in  

Tucson he was the wagon master for  the entire California Column there  
Tucson he was the wagon master for  the entire California Column there  

must have been a lot of them because when  when the battle of Picacho Pass was over  
must have been a lot of them because when  when the battle of Picacho Pass was over  

captain hunter sent lieutenant McCleave up  to find out what happened to his missing men  
captain hunter sent lieutenant McCleave up  to find out what happened to his missing men  

and he saw 272 soldiers and 10 wagons  going back to the panel villages so  
and he saw 272 soldiers and 10 wagons  going back to the panel villages so  

that left about 2 000 more soldiers coming up the  re the Gila river and obviously there must have  
that left about 2 000 more soldiers coming up the  re the Gila river and obviously there must have  

been an awful lot of wagons involved and that  position called for the rank of a lieutenant  
been an awful lot of wagons involved and that  position called for the rank of a lieutenant  

well when they got to the Sacaton villages  Lieutenant Walker was in charge of distributing  
well when they got to the Sacaton villages  Lieutenant Walker was in charge of distributing  

the grain uh from the from the Maricopa and  Pima Indians they had huge fields of grains  
the grain uh from the from the Maricopa and  Pima Indians they had huge fields of grains  

to the soldiers they were buying them from the  Indians and shipping them to various places  
to the soldiers they were buying them from the  Indians and shipping them to various places  

where the California Column was as far  away as El Paso well after the war was over  
where the California Column was as far  away as El Paso well after the war was over  

walker came back to the Pima villages he was very  friendly with the Indians and he continued doing  
walker came back to the Pima villages he was very  friendly with the Indians and he continued doing  

business with him and in fact he uh he formed  a militia unit out of the Pima and Maricopa  
business with him and in fact he uh he formed  a militia unit out of the Pima and Maricopa  

Indians the Apaches have been committing great  depredations against the Pimas and the Maricopas  
Indians the Apaches have been committing great  depredations against the Pimas and the Maricopas  

and they were really tired of  it so he formed a militia unit  
and they were really tired of  it so he formed a militia unit  

and was cooperating with fort Mcdowell which  was established in 1865. a Lieutenant Ewing  
and was cooperating with fort Mcdowell which  was established in 1865. a Lieutenant Ewing  

uh came with a contingent of a small contingent of  soldiers to the Pima villages and met with Captain  
uh came with a contingent of a small contingent of  soldiers to the Pima villages and met with Captain  

Walker who had formed this militia unit  and they left the Pima villages with 300  
Walker who had formed this militia unit  and they left the Pima villages with 300  

Maricopa and Pimal up Pima Indians and marched 22  miles to what would have been Florence up the Gila  
Maricopa and Pimal up Pima Indians and marched 22  miles to what would have been Florence up the Gila  

river and beyond and they crossed the river and  camped the night and it was stated in his report  
river and beyond and they crossed the river and  camped the night and it was stated in his report  

which is very accurate and complete report that  at that point the Indians began making war clubs  
which is very accurate and complete report that  at that point the Indians began making war clubs  

the Indians evidently were not heavily armed or  didn't particularly care to be so they were making  
the Indians evidently were not heavily armed or  didn't particularly care to be so they were making  

war clubs for for what was coming up ahead they  marched 25 miles north of the Gila river which  
war clubs for for what was coming up ahead they  marched 25 miles north of the Gila river which  

would have put them very close if not in Queen  Valley where there was permanent water and then  
would have put them very close if not in Queen  Valley where there was permanent water and then  

the forces split Lieutenant Ewing took up half  the troop and went on up into the Tonto valley and  
the forces split Lieutenant Ewing took up half  the troop and went on up into the Tonto valley and  

Walker took his group and went 15 miles east  and that put him right where superior would be  
Walker took his group and went 15 miles east  and that put him right where superior would be  

and in them during the night they snuck up on this  Apache rancheria area and was waiting for him by  
and in them during the night they snuck up on this  Apache rancheria area and was waiting for him by  

dawn the fight started and they Killed 25 Apaches  without any casualties on the sides of the  
dawn the fight started and they Killed 25 Apaches  without any casualties on the sides of the  

of the Indians nothing else was just accomplished  at this particular battle and it was below the  
of the Indians nothing else was just accomplished  at this particular battle and it was below the  

cliffs not up on top the cliffs the women and  children were taken captive the bodies were  
cliffs not up on top the cliffs the women and  children were taken captive the bodies were  

just left where they fell and the the captives  were turned over to this army at Fort Mcdowell  
just left where they fell and the the captives  were turned over to this army at Fort Mcdowell  

and that was the end of the 1866  raid the next raid and this was also  
and that was the end of the 1866  raid the next raid and this was also  

a documentation that was found in the  army animals happened in June of 1869
a documentation that was found in the  army animals happened in June of 1869

this was led by Lieutenant Colonel Sanford  and they left Apache they left Fort Mcdowell  
this was led by Lieutenant Colonel Sanford  and they left Apache they left Fort Mcdowell  

went up the the salt river to the Tonto  Basin where Roosevelt lake would be  
went up the the salt river to the Tonto  Basin where Roosevelt lake would be  

and dropped south down Queen Creek  through Globe on down to fort Grant  
and dropped south down Queen Creek  through Globe on down to fort Grant  

and from Fort Grant where they re-outfitted they  worked their way way north to the Pinal mountains  
and from Fort Grant where they re-outfitted they  worked their way way north to the Pinal mountains  

and in the dark came upon the rancher  that was on top of the cliff and  
and in the dark came upon the rancher  that was on top of the cliff and  

the name that came up there were three groups  of mostly soldiers there was no mention of of  
the name that came up there were three groups  of mostly soldiers there was no mention of of  

Pima or Maricopa Indians being in this  particular group it was mostly all soldiers  
Pima or Maricopa Indians being in this  particular group it was mostly all soldiers  

and there was three groups of them all the  outfits were named which I can't put to memory and  
and there was three groups of them all the  outfits were named which I can't put to memory and  

they combined into two groups and one of them was  led by none other than lieutenant William Mccleave  
they combined into two groups and one of them was  led by none other than lieutenant William Mccleave  

if you might remember in  our episode of Picacho pass  
if you might remember in  our episode of Picacho pass  

he was a captain who was captured by  Captain Hunter and his confederates  
he was a captain who was captured by  Captain Hunter and his confederates  

and taken with Emile White who owned the mill  there to messiah and now he was a Lieutenant  
and taken with Emile White who owned the mill  there to messiah and now he was a Lieutenant  

I don't think that meant that maybe he was  demoted because he was captured I think  
I don't think that meant that maybe he was  demoted because he was captured I think  

probably he was a brevit Captain at the time  of of the civil war and now that was the war  
probably he was a brevit Captain at the time  of of the civil war and now that was the war  

was over he was back to his original rank as  lieutenant anyway he made the initial contact and  
was over he was back to his original rank as  lieutenant anyway he made the initial contact and  

the rancheria buildings and weapons and  what they found was completely destroyed  
the rancheria buildings and weapons and  what they found was completely destroyed  

and there were about 75 Apache casualties in  this battle absolutely no mention in either one  
and there were about 75 Apache casualties in  this battle absolutely no mention in either one  

of these reports said anything about the Apaches  jumping over the edge or committing suicide or  
of these reports said anything about the Apaches  jumping over the edge or committing suicide or  

being thrown over the edge what what information  I've been able to gather there there's a couple  
being thrown over the edge what what information  I've been able to gather there there's a couple  

of other things that happened in Arizona that  people thought that the Indians committed suicide  
of other things that happened in Arizona that  people thought that the Indians committed suicide  

one of them was when General Crook took  over he was on an inspection tour and  
one of them was when General Crook took  over he was on an inspection tour and  

he was returning from Fort Apache to Camp Verde  and his party was attacked by 30 or 40 Apaches and  
he was returning from Fort Apache to Camp Verde  and his party was attacked by 30 or 40 Apaches and  

a couple of them got separated during the fight  and were over on the edge of the Mogolion rim  
a couple of them got separated during the fight  and were over on the edge of the Mogolion rim  

and the firing was so heavy they just jumped  over the edge and everybody thought that they  
and the firing was so heavy they just jumped  over the edge and everybody thought that they  

committed suicide well eventually they walked  over there to look down and see the remains  
committed suicide well eventually they walked  over there to look down and see the remains  

and there they both were almost the sheer cliff  bounding from boulder to boulder making their  
and there they both were almost the sheer cliff  bounding from boulder to boulder making their  

escape uh another has incident happened at turturt  peak which is not far from where the first one  
escape uh another has incident happened at turturt  peak which is not far from where the first one  

took place and there again stories were circulated  that some of the Apaches jumped over the edge  
took place and there again stories were circulated  that some of the Apaches jumped over the edge  

absolutely there was no eyewitnesses to any of  this that this either this is just something that  
absolutely there was no eyewitnesses to any of  this that this either this is just something that  

local legend has put put out there the ammunition  that was found the cartridges were mostly  
local legend has put put out there the ammunition  that was found the cartridges were mostly  

heavily 50-70 caliber which goes right along  with the standard weapon that that they were  
heavily 50-70 caliber which goes right along  with the standard weapon that that they were  

using at the skeleton cave which was the modified  Sharps carbine modified from paper cartridge just  
using at the skeleton cave which was the modified  Sharps carbine modified from paper cartridge just  

brass cartridges and fired 50 70 caliber there  was a very small number of 56 50 caliber shells  
brass cartridges and fired 50 70 caliber there  was a very small number of 56 50 caliber shells  

found which would have been used in a Spencer  carbine and that the information was suggesting  
found which would have been used in a Spencer  carbine and that the information was suggesting  

that some of the Indians were armed with  Spencers now where would they have got these  
that some of the Indians were armed with  Spencers now where would they have got these  

um the governor had ordered in 500 Spencer  carbines to be issued to civilians for their  
um the governor had ordered in 500 Spencer  carbines to be issued to civilians for their  

self-defense and probably the Indians got  those from civilians when they went on raids  
self-defense and probably the Indians got  those from civilians when they went on raids  

the the cartridges were out of date they  were no longer manufactured by 1869 and  
the the cartridges were out of date they  were no longer manufactured by 1869 and  

when i was doing the story on the search for  Dr Thorne's mine with Cooley, Cooley met up  
when i was doing the story on the search for  Dr Thorne's mine with Cooley, Cooley met up  

with some Indians at that time that had figured  out a way to save their brass and reload them
with some Indians at that time that had figured  out a way to save their brass and reload them

in fact one Indian showed him some metal that he  had how he shaped these bullets and it turned out  
in fact one Indian showed him some metal that he  had how he shaped these bullets and it turned out  

that that metal was a almost pure silver nugget  and they actually made the bullets to fit the gun  
that that metal was a almost pure silver nugget  and they actually made the bullets to fit the gun  

and if you ever saw uh an Indian make an  arrowhead and how perfectly they can do this  
and if you ever saw uh an Indian make an  arrowhead and how perfectly they can do this  

you can understand that it would not  necessarily be a difficult thing for an indent  
you can understand that it would not  necessarily be a difficult thing for an indent  

to fashion a silver bullet to fit the weapon  that he had the big problem was the primer  
to fashion a silver bullet to fit the weapon  that he had the big problem was the primer  

an Indian couldn't go buy a primer to fit  that military or civilian gun so what they did  
an Indian couldn't go buy a primer to fit  that military or civilian gun so what they did  

evidently powder was not hard to get and caps for  cap and ball pistols were not that hard to get  
evidently powder was not hard to get and caps for  cap and ball pistols were not that hard to get  

so they took the smallest caps that would be used  on a pistol and crushed them down into the primer  
so they took the smallest caps that would be used  on a pistol and crushed them down into the primer  

hole and then I'd done a little reloading in my  time in a primer there's a little piece in there  
hole and then I'd done a little reloading in my  time in a primer there's a little piece in there  

called an anvil and that's what actually detonates  the powder that's that's in the primer so they  
called an anvil and that's what actually detonates  the powder that's that's in the primer so they  

took a small rock and put it on top of these  crushed caps as the anvil and then crush some more  
took a small rock and put it on top of these  crushed caps as the anvil and then crush some more  

caps in there until it was smooth on the back of  the cartridge so Indians were pretty clever and in  
caps in there until it was smooth on the back of  the cartridge so Indians were pretty clever and in  

figuring this out so evidently there  were some of them armed at Apache leap
figuring this out so evidently there  were some of them armed at Apache leap

so really as it comes down to it the  only conclusion that I'm going to make  
so really as it comes down to it the  only conclusion that I'm going to make  

that has nothing to do with the reports is that  articles that claim that the bones of Indians  
that has nothing to do with the reports is that  articles that claim that the bones of Indians  

could still be found there after several years  could have only possibly been the 25 Indians that  
could still be found there after several years  could have only possibly been the 25 Indians that  

were killed in the first raid and just left where  they fell or else there was just in a complete  
were killed in the first raid and just left where  they fell or else there was just in a complete  

set exaggeration but anyway the two battles  that took place and the one battle in 1869 by  
set exaggeration but anyway the two battles  that took place and the one battle in 1869 by  

Captain Mccleave Lieutenant Mccleave is in  my opinion completely solved the mystery  
Captain Mccleave Lieutenant Mccleave is in  my opinion completely solved the mystery  

of the Apache leap. Thank you for watching this  episode of Mysteries of the Superstition Mountains
of the Apache leap. Thank you for watching this  episode of Mysteries of the Superstition Mountains