Three, two, one. 三 二 一
Very unpleasant all round. 整個狀況太恐怖了
You have to be like a cow for, like a year. 你需要做到像牛一樣 度日如年
Sorry, I'm really awkward. 對不起 我真的覺得很尷尬
It's literally feeding off of you like a vampire. 它就像個吸血鬼一樣吸乾你
Stop saying that. 不要這麼說
不要這麼說
Hi. 嗨 大家好
我是戴舒萱
我來自英國
歡迎回到我的頻道
Recently in lots of countries, 最近在許多國家
最近在許多國家
there has been a trend towards not having kids 不生孩子成為一個新的趨勢
不生孩子成為一個新的趨勢
On social media we can see hashtags like 在社群媒體上 你會看到
#childfreebychoice 不要小孩選擇
#nothavingkids 不要孩子
#childfreemillenial 不要小孩的千禧一代
Over time this can become a 這些標語 長時間累積下來
這些標語 長時間累積下來
這將成為一個重要的人口問題
significant demographic change 這將成為一個重要的人口問題
As I’m approaching 30, I’ve been curious about 這讓快30歲的我很好奇
why more and more women are choosing not to have children 為什麼會有那麼多的女性選擇不再生孩子呢
Even though in the UK, the government provides 雖然在英國 政府會提供一點補助
some help towards childcare 來幫助父母養育孩子
State schools are free, so there’s nothing to pay 公立學校也是免費 沒有學費的負擔
and at university level the government provides loans 而且上大學 政府會提供貸款
meaning students don’t have to rely on their parents 讓學生不需要依賴父母的幫忙
However, the birth rate continues to decline. 不過出生率還是急遽的下降
As I have some female friends aged between 26 and 36 我有很多女性朋友 年齡介於26到36歲
who haven’t decided to have children yet, 目前都還沒有準備當媽媽
I thought I’d ask them about this topic. 所以我認為我可以趁著這一次的話題來了解她們的想法
I want to thank them for agreeing to this interview 再一次感謝我的朋友和老師們 接受這一次的採訪
because for some people this can be a private or sensitive issue. 因為這個主題對某些人來說 可能還是比較私人和敏感的
I want to thank them for agreeing to this interview 那我們就開始吧 聽聽她們的意見
This is my friend, Lucy. 這是我的朋友 露西
Hello. 哈囉
And I know that we've talked a lot about this topic before, 我知道 我們講過這個話題很多次了
and you had some really interesting thoughts 而且你也有很多有趣的想法
that made me think more deeply 這讓我也思考了很多
about whether or not I want children 關於我是否想要孩子
in a way that I hadn't really though about before. 這些都是我之前不曾想過的
Can you remember what those things were? 你還記得是些什麼事情嗎？
Yeah, I think, because we're getting to the age 我想是因為我們已經到了
where you do start thinking about these things, 會開始去思考這些事情的年紀
'cause I've just turned 30 this week, for example- 就像 因為我這星期才剛剛過了30歲生日
How does that feel? 你感覺如何？
Quite scary. 蠻可怕的
I think less scary than it did, maybe, a couple of years ago, 我覺得可能沒有幾年前 我想的那麼可怕了
'cause I think a couple of years ago 因為我覺得幾年前
was when I knew that 30 was coming, 當我知道 我快要30歲的時候
and that's when I started thinking about the real idea of having babies. 那個時候我就開始想我對生小孩的真正想法
The deadline is coming. 期限快要到了的感覺
"The deadline." 期限
Yeah, there is still a sense that something is supposed to happen at 30. 對啊 總感覺有些事情就是要在30歲時發生
Whether it's getting married or having babies 不管是結婚或生孩子
or having a house, those ideas still float around. 或買一間房子 這些想法總是會持續出現
Yeah, there's a lot of tick boxes, 對 會有一堆選項需要去完成
and I think, yeah, maybe 'cause I was already married 我覺得可能因為我已經結婚了
and did already have a house, 然後也已經有房子了
so then, that felt like that was the major thing 所以我覺得接下來 最重要的事情就是
of okay, if I'm gonna do this, 如果我想做的話
it's gonna be happening soon. 那我也需要快一點執行了
So then, that got me think seriously 所以讓我深深思考
about what this actually means. 關於這件事 它到底意味著什麼
I find that life is so hectic already. 因為我覺得生活已經非常忙碌了
And then the thought of having this little thing 然後如果我還帶著一個小傢伙
that depends on you when you can hardly look after yourself 當你都自顧不暇了 還要再照顧他
is just quite terrifying. 這真的是很可怕的事情
I know that were reading some things online 我有在網路上讀到人們
about people saying their real feelings about having children. 關於生小孩的真實想法
That was another thing I was thinking about 那是另一件我正在思考的事情
was, I guess, why people today 就是為什麼現在的人們
are maybe considering these things a bit more 對這件事情考慮的
than maybe they would've in the past, 比以前的人還多
and part of that, I guess, is that we have access 我想一部分是因為
to so many different perspectives and opinions. 我們可以得到很多不同的觀點跟看法
And yeah, people are quite open on the internet. 對 現代人很常使用網路
And so, seeing the reality of it 因此當他們看到真實生活中
and also hearing perspectives 或聽到
from people who are older and haven't had children 那些年長卻沒有小孩的人
but are still thriving and happy 依然生活的非常愉快生氣勃勃
and they feel like they have purpose, 然後也有著生活目標
it give you another option, I guess. 我想這也給了你其他的選擇
Yeah, yeah, I guess that's the thing. 對 對 我想這是原因
It's just that that other option has become more apparent. 就是另外一個選項就變得更加清楚了
Before, maybe, it was just not an option. 以前 這也許不是一個選擇
It wasn't something people thought of doing, 這不是人們想做的事情
but now, it's like, okay, 但現在 好吧
maybe I could choose not to. 也許我可以選擇不這樣做
Yeah, think there's a lot of factors in that, 是的 我認為這其中有很多因素
why we consider that other option now, as well, 為什麼我們現在會考慮其他選項
because religion, I feel like, 我覺得因為宗教
used to be a much bigger thing. 曾經是一件更為重要的事情
Now, I guess, because of scientific advancements and stuff, 現在我覺得因為科學的進步還有一些因素
less people are 越來越少的人認為
feeling like they have to conform to religion. 他們必須遵守宗教
And then, part of religion is stuff like marriage and not getting divorced 像是婚姻 不能離婚這類的 都是宗教的一部分
and going down a very traditional route. 都必須遵守非常傳統的這條路
Children fits into that, so in that sense, 孩子也包含在裡面 所以若從這角度來看
you feel like you've got more choice. 你會覺得有更多的選擇
Yeah, I don't know if you had thought 對 我不知道你有沒有曾經想過
that you would always have children before, 你一定會有小孩
'cause, for me for some reason, in my early 20s, 因為對我來說 在我20歲出頭的時候
the whole getting-married-having-kids thing 我完全沒有想過
didn't even factor in. 結婚生子這整件事情
It just seemed so far away from my life. 感覺是離我非常遙遠的
It was like, that's just something other people do, 那些就像是別人的事情
but as you get older, there's more of the assumption, maybe, 但當你的年紀越來越大 就會設想越來越多的事情
that you might want those things. 你可能就會想要這些東西了
I dunno, maybe it's just 'cause of my situation 我不知道 有可能是因為我的情況
'cause I did get together with my partner quite young, 因為我跟我的伴侶很年輕的時候就在一起
so we did get married young, so I guess 所以我們也很早結婚 所以我想
I had those thoughts in my mind earlier on, maybe. 早期一點 可能我也有這種想法
Oh, you were more identified with that? 所以那個時候你比較認同一點
Yeah, maybe that was it, 是的 有可能是這樣
or maybe I am just, 或者我只是
I think ahead or worry 我會預先設想
about things in the future quite a lot. 或擔心很多未來可能會發生的事情
Yeah, I thought that I did that, 是的 我以為我做了
but at that point, I think I wasn't. 但在那個階段 我想我沒有
I would fit under the category of, 我是屬於那一種
like maybe I could have kids, 也許我能夠有小孩
maybe I do want a family, 也許我會想要有個家庭
but also there's kind of like contingency plans 但這也像是一種應急方案
in my head of like, 像在我的頭腦裡
oh well if I can't have kids 喔好吧 如果我不能有小孩
or if it doesn't come around, I could have a 或者如果沒有小孩 我可以有一個
I could have quite a nice life without them. 沒有他們 我也能有一個好的生活
I'm sure I'd have a lot more money 我相信 我會有很多的錢
go on holiday a lot more. 可以常常去度假
And so I think that that, 然後我覺得
the recognition that your life can be entirely fulfilling 人們意識到沒有孩子的生活 也可以很完整充實
without children means that people are more ready to say, 這意味著人們更願意說
no I don't want to have them. 我不想要有小孩
I know that my mom told me that I have 我媽媽告訴我
to make a decision before I'm 33. 要在33歲之前做好決定
She doesn't lie. 她沒有騙我
She was like, I don't care, whatever you do. 她說我不管你想做什麼
But my recommendation, she had me when she was 37, 但我的建議是 她是在37歲生我的
so a bit a bit later but not like hugely late. 所以有一點點晚了 但也沒有晚很多
She was like, 她就是
my recommendation for seeing all of my friends 她看到我朋友時 就會給她們建議
is just make a decision either way when you're 33. 你要在33歲時做好決定
Because then you're giving yourself more time 因為如果你在準備懷孕的過程中有任何問題
if you have issues getting pregnant. 你還留有多一點的時間給自己去處理
Basically was her piece of advice. 基本上這是她的建議
She was like, whatever you decide is cool. 她就說你要做什麼決定都好
But that's the one. 但這是我的建議
So now we're approaching it. 所以我們慢慢接近33歲了
I'm like ugh. 我就快暈倒了
Yeah, that is a big decision. 對啊 這是一個很大的決定
Maybe if we need more characters like your mum around. 我們可能很需要 有像你媽媽這樣的角色在身邊
who are just chill about it, yeah. 對 會聊這樣話題的人
Or just to to you know, put it in concrete terms. 或是你知道 會很具體去說
You probably need to decide before you're 33. 你就是要在33歲之前做好這個決定
And that also that the decision either way is fine. 然後不管是哪一個決定都好
Because I feel like a lot of people will be like, 因為我覺得很多人都會覺得說
oh clock's a'ticking sort of thing. 喔 時間已經快到了
And with the implication that you need to be pregnant. 像是在暗示你需要懷孕了
Whereas actually it's more just like, 其實這更像是
think about it in practical terms 從現實角度去考量
of your fertility and your lifespan. 你的生育能力還有你的壽命
Like 33 is a milestone for you to get to. 33歲就像是一個里程碑的年紀
But yeah, it's not to say that somebody 但這也不是說
who's beyond the age of 33 can't have children. 過了33歲之後就不能有小孩了
It's just like kind of make your mind up I suppose by that point. 我想只是要你做好決定就好了
Just to make your life a bit easier. 就是讓你的生活更輕鬆一些而已
Yeah, exactly. either way 對 沒錯 無論你是做什麼決定
But yeah, I think that's also 但我想 相較於30歲
more maybe realistic than age 30. 這更加現實一點
I think for lots of people 我覺得很多人
it used to be 30 but now it seems like that's, 之前覺得期限是30歲 但現在看起來
we don't necessarily have to decide by that point. 我們也不是必須要在那個時候做決定
I hope not. 我希望是不用
I could imagine my life without them as well. 我可以想像沒有小孩的生活
'Cause to be honest that's what we've known. 老實說 這是我們已經知道的
That would be a continuation 那會是
of the existing life that we have. 我們現有生活的延續
And the other path is like potentially really 另一條路也可能會是
fulfilling and exciting. 非常充實和讓人興奮的
But also really stressful and you know 但也會很有壓力
it's just such a big unknown. 因為這也是一個很大的未知數
I'm probably like at a 50/50 at the moment. 我現在大概是一半一半的機率吧
At some point I was, I'm definitely having them. 有時候覺得我一定會有小孩
I'm on this path and that was quite anxiety inducing 我現在走的這條路 也讓我非常焦慮
'cause it was like this is happening, I have no choice. 因爲已經這樣了 我也別無選擇
And now it's kind of like if it happens, 然後現在像是 如果發生了
not if it happens, it happens. 不是如果發生了 就讓它發生了
But it's more of a like if I decide that I want them 但這更像是 如果我決定要小孩
and if and my husband decides, then it will happen. 如果我老公也想要的話 那我們就會要小孩
But it's not like a surefire, 但這不是萬無一失的
this has to happen to be happy. 這一定要是開心的
God, it's crazy when you put it like that, 天啊 你這樣說聽起來蠻瘋狂的
that you just thought, 你只是覺得
oh I have to do that. 我需要這麼做
There's no other option. 沒有別的選擇了
That's the only way of existing. 這是存在的唯一方式
Of having a good life. 有一個好的生活
And I think that message is really fed to us 然後我覺得這訊息真的提供給我們
and it's like, it is hard to see examples 我們也很難看到
of older people who haven't gone down that path. 沒有走過這條路的長輩的範例
I mean the reason that I'm doing this video is 我做這個影片的原因是
'cause I know so many people who have chosen not to. 我知道有很多人選擇不這麼做
I mean, I don't know people 我的意思是 我不知道
in the older generations that many who- 在老一輩的人會有多少
Yeah, when I think of the people who are older 對 當我在想那些
who don't have them, 沒有小孩的長輩
who don't have them,
it's more they didn't have a choice. 更多的是他們沒有得選擇
It was just like by circumstance. 只能視情況而定
Like maybe they just didn't get married early enough 也許他們只是沒有更早一點結婚
or they couldn't have children. 或是他們沒辦法有小孩
It's rarely a choice. 這很難說是他們的選擇
Yeah, I think that's true. 對 我覺得是這樣
I really, I love children and like, 我真的很喜歡小孩
it makes me wonder having my nieces 這讓我去想 是不是我有姪女們
if that's kind of enough. 就已經足夠了
I'm very happy being an auntie 我很開心當一個阿姨
but also cost 但在我來看
of having children is huge in my opinion. 養一個孩子的花費是很大的
It's not the same for everyone I know. 我知道這對每一個人來說都是不同的
But I personally probably want 但我個人可能更想要
to be in like a stable relationship with someone, 和某人處於一段穩定的關係中
which I'm not. 我現在是沒有
Which makes it sound like 這聽起來很像
I'm in an unstable relationship. 我現在處在一段不穩定的關係中
I'm not either. 我也沒有啦
'Cause I think being a single parent is difficult. 因為我認為身為一個單親父母是很辛苦的
It's like no judgment at all. 我沒有要去評斷對錯
I just think it's difficult. 我只是覺得很辛苦
So, cheers. 所以 乾杯
Cheers. 乾杯
I think for me personally, 我覺得對我個人來說
I'm not so bothered if I do 有沒有小孩
or I don't have children, 都不會對我造成困擾
so it's not a solid yes. 所以這不是一個很明確肯定的答案
所以這不是一個很明確肯定的答案
I think some people really do know like yes 我覺得有些人很肯定的知道
I'd be perfect as a parent. 我一定會成為一個完美的父母
I think I'd really like that. 我很喜歡這樣的想法
So for them it's like yes. 所以對他們來說 就是很肯定的答案
Absolutely. 無庸置疑
So what is it for you that makes you not sure? 所以是什麼讓你覺得不那麼肯定？
The expectations of being a parent and what that means 身為父母的期望 這也意味著
and what you should provide for your child. 你應當給予你的孩子什麼
I think in some ways I feel like 有時我覺得
I can't provide that. 我無法給予那些
My mum has always been a housewife 我媽媽一直是一位家庭主婦
and it's only very recently 直到最近
that she is not a housewife and has a job. 她不再是一位家庭主婦 她有了一份工作
So she was always present in the house, 她以前總是在家裡
cooking us whatever we wanted. 給我們做我們想吃的
Picking us up from school, 接我們上下課
tending to our every need. 照顧我們的每一個需求
And I just think that's quite impossible. 我只是認為那是不可能做到的
It's a lot isn't it? 那真的很多 不是嗎？
It's a lot to take on and I think 真的有很多事情要做 我想
I've seen expectations placed from like her, 我看到了要像她這樣的人的期望
not her parents but my dad's parents. 不是她的父母 而是我爸爸的父母
We all lived in an extended family, 我們都生活在一個大家庭裡
so there was a lot of influence from my grandmother. 所以我奶奶的影響很大
So my dad's mom and part of that extended family 所以我奶奶和那個大家庭的部分成員
was also my dad's sister. 也就是我的姑姑
Another female in the house. 家族中的另一位女性
So a lot of influence and them judging 所以如此大的影響力和他們的評斷
the way my mom would do things. 影響了我媽媽做事的方式
Oh right. 喔 是的
Or there's expectations 或是她們會期待
about what you should do as a mother. 關於妳應該要如何當一位母親
Very cultural Indian background. 非常的印度式的文化
A mother should be there 你知道的 像一位母親
to provide for her children, you know. 應該要在那裡撫養她的小孩
So when my mum first married my dad 所以在我媽媽嫁給我爸爸的初期
and like moved to this country, 像搬到這個國家
my dad's dad, 我爺爺
he's like classed as the head of the family, 他就像這個家的一家之主
wanted to see if my mom could cook the perfect chapati. 想看看我媽媽是否做出完美的薄煎餅
Which is like apparently a huge deal. 這很顯然是一件大事情
Really? 真的嗎?
For new daughter-in-laws to be able to do. 新進門的媳婦是要能夠做到的
Oh. 喔
Can you do it? 你會做嗎？
No! It has to be perfectly round. 不會！然後它必須是膨鬆的也必須是完美的圓形
And if it's perfectly round then 然後如果它是完美的圓形
when you put it on the gas stove it rises, 當你把它放在煤氣灶上時 它會升起來
like it goes really puffy. 就會變得非常膨鬆
Oh I know, I know. 喔 我懂 我懂
And then it gives it a certain taste 然後它會帶出某種味道
as opposed to it being burnt and crisp. 而不是焦脆的
So that was like something she had to do and it's just. 所以這像是她必須做的事情
So what would happen if she couldn't do it? 所以如果她做不到怎麼辦？
I don't know. 我不知道
她會被允許進入這個家嗎
Would she be allowed into the family? 她會被允許進入這個家嗎
Like if you can't even cook a good chapati, 她會被允許進入這個家嗎
Like if you can't even cook a good chapati,
Like if you can't even cook a good chapati, 像是 如果你連一份薄煎餅都做不好
像是 如果你連一份薄煎餅都做不好
like what are you gonna provide for your family? 像是 如果你連一份薄煎餅都做不好
like what are you gonna provide for your family? 你還能為這個家提供些什麼？
Is it something that you've thought much about? 這是你考慮過的事情嗎？
這是你考慮過的事情嗎？
For me like as I approach 30 像我快接近 30 歲時
it pops into my head like, 它突然出現在我的腦中
it pops into my head like,
喔 事實上如果我想那樣做 我應該要盡快去做
oh I'm actually, if I wanna do that I should probably do it soon. 喔 事實上如果我想那樣做 我應該要盡快去做
It's one of those things where I've definitely noticed 這肯定是我會注意到的事情之一
something like a trend or social phenomenon where 像是一種趨勢或社會現象
像是一種趨勢或社會現象
even like my cousin's generation who are like 10 years older than me, 像是一種趨勢或社會現象
even like my cousin's generation who are like 10 years older than me, 像比我大10歲的表哥那一代
they all did kinda get married and have children 他們都在他們二十幾歲後期
around their like late twenties. 結婚生子
And sort of started their family in their early thirties. 然後在三十歲出頭時 開始他們的家庭
Whereas now like among my friends, 然而在我的朋友之中
so my friends are generally either 我的朋友們普遍
my age or a little bit older, 和我差不多年紀或大我一些
so like early thirties, none of them have children. 在三十歲出頭時 沒有一個是有小孩的
so like early thirties, none of them have children.
他們會覺得 特別是女性朋友
And it's something that I think, especially as women, 他們會覺得 特別是女性朋友
And it's something that I think, especially as women,
it's a bit scary to think about. 這是一件想起來有點可怕的事情
You know like when you just said you know, 你知道 當你說
if we do want to do it, 如果我們想要這樣做
there is like time pressure element to it. 它會有一個時間的壓力
And I think for me personally, 我想 對我個人來說
I just try not to think about that 我只是試著不去想它
'cause I think you know we do, 因為我覺得 你知道我們要去想這件事
we do need to bear it in mind. 我們需要把它藏在心裡
But if we do start thinking like that 但如果我們開始這樣想了
then it's just a huge pressure and- 這會是一個很大的壓力
Yeah, it's just a quite an interesting time. 對 這是相當有趣的一個時間點
'Cause I think I'm the same as you, 因為我覺得我跟你一樣
I don't have any friends who have had children yet. 我也沒有已經有小孩的朋友
I'm sort of thinking in a couple years, you know, 我想幾年後
maybe in five years then most of them might have already. 可能5年後 他們大部分的人都有小孩了
I know a lot of them have also voiced concerns. 我知道他們有很多人也表達過擔憂
You know, they feel like it's too soon. 他們覺得這樣太快了
They feel like not ready to be a parent. 他們還沒有準備好成為父母
There's the financial stuff. 還有經濟的壓力
So it could kind of go either way. 所以什麼情況都有可能
I'm like intrigued to see what will happen. 我很好奇接下來會發生什麼
I really love children, 我真的很喜歡小孩
I'd love to have children one day, 我希望有一天能有自己的小孩
but also I don't want to do it for selfish reasons 但我也不想出於自私的原因而這樣做
and not give them the best life. 卻無法給他們最好的生活
Like my parents own their own house. 像我的父母 他們有自己的房子
It meant that I had a lot of stability growing up 這意味著 我可以在很穩定的環境下成長
and I was able to live 我也可以
in the same house like my entire life. 一輩子都住在同一個房子裡
Okay. 好
So when you say you wouldn't wanna do it for selfish reasons, 所以當你說 你不想出於自私的原因有小孩
So when you say you wouldn't wanna do it for selfish reasons,
what would those kind of reasons be? 指的是哪一些原因？
I suppose just because children are cute 我想不能只是因為小孩們很可愛
and that I want children and that it will all work out. 就想要小孩 然後覺得這樣就行了
You know, just saying it will just work out fine. 你知道 就覺得這一切不會有問題
You know, just saying it will just work out fine.
My mom also said to me, oh I never got that, 我媽媽也跟我說過 我從來沒理解
like womb-aching urge to have a child. 像是子宮渴望到想要一個孩子
like womb-aching urge to have a child.
Womb-aching? 子宮渴望？
Do you know what I mean? 你懂我在說什麼嗎？
I definitely haven't had that. 我絕對沒有體會過
And she was like, I obviously I had, 她跟我說 我當然有過
so she had my brother when she was 34 所以她是在34歲時生我哥哥
and she was up until that point and even in 她在那個時候
between the children I was like 甚至是在兩個孩子之間 她都覺得
oh I really want to have a baby and be pregnant. 她從來都沒有 喔我很想要懷孕
oh I really want to have a baby and be pregnant.
oh I really want to have a baby and be pregnant. 我想有一個小孩的想法
Like she never had that. 我想有一個小孩的想法
Like she never had that.
Like she never had that. 實際上是我爸爸很想要小孩
It was my dad that wanted to have children. 實際上是我爸爸很想要小孩
Oh right. 喔 原來如此
And I felt like that's a bit of 然後我覺得
a mean way around isn't it? 這其實是一個不太好的做法 不是嗎？
Like you have to be pregnant. 像是你必須懷孕
She was like, yeah I never had it. 我媽媽說 她從來都沒有這種感覺
And I think she was like, I think it's a myth. 然後我覺得她應該是 我覺得這是虛構的
Whereas my friend who has kids was like, 然而 我有一個有小孩的朋友
it will probably kick in at some point. 這想法 可能會在某個時候突然就有了
And that's, do you not think 然後 你不認為
that's like a mythical thing of like 這就像是神話般
your body will randomly decide it. 你的身體會隨機的決定這件事
Yeah,I don't know about that. 我不知道這個
I find it hard 'cause sometimes now 我覺得這件事很難 因為現在有時候
when I see babies I do think oh, so sweet- 我看到小孩 我會覺得 好可愛
Cute, yeah. 很可愛 對
In a way that I didn't really used to, 我以前沒特別有這方面感覺
but I'm partly thinking is it 但是我覺得這有一部分是
because it's just on my mind a bit more 因為在我腦中 有在思考要不要生小孩這個問題
and so I'm looking out for it more 所以我有多觀察我的情緒
and sort of being more aware of how I feel 也看看我自己的感覺
and sort of being more aware of how I feel
and sort of being more aware of how I feel 是的 像一種社會建構
是的 像一種社會建構
Oh right, the social construct 是的 像一種社會建構
of the baby being cute to me. 我需要覺得小孩很可愛
我需要覺得小孩很可愛
Damn you baby 我需要覺得小孩很可愛
Damn you baby 很煩喔
Maybe it's like I'm wanting myself to want that, I dunno. 很煩喔
Maybe it's like I'm wanting myself to want that, I dunno.
Maybe it's like I'm wanting myself to want that, I dunno. 也許這像是 我想要我自己想要小孩 我不知道
Yes, that's true. 對 沒錯
Oh that's a hard thing to differentiate between. 這很難區分
Almost prefer the framing of make it 更希望是由自己決定的框架
as a decision make like have your own agency, 像是有自己的代理機構可以做決定
make it as a decision. 去做出自己的決定
Do I want to have a family with this person 我想跟這個人
or a future person 或未來的某個人共組家庭嗎
而不是屈服於某種
rather than give in to some sort of like 而不是屈服於某種
external pressure 外界的壓力
or wait for your body to want it. 或等到身體想要做的時候
There is also never a right time as well. 這也從來沒有一個正確的時間
That's at least something that I've got. 這至少是我的想法
You'll never have the right setup 你永遠不會有正確的安排
so that it is more just like do you want to try for children, 所以這更像是你會為了小孩去嘗試嗎
so that it is more just like do you want to try for children, 我覺得是這樣吧？
I think is the thing isn't it? 我覺得是這樣吧？
Do you want to try for children is the key question. 你會為了小孩去嘗試嗎 這是一個很重要的問題
With the possibility of that happening. 你願意允許這件事發生嗎？
It's such a strange thing isn't it? 這是一件很奇怪的事情 不是嗎？
Because you could try and it could happen in a week. 因為你可以去嘗試 也可能在一星期內就成功了
Or it could not happen for a year. 或一年之內都不會發生
You just don't know. 你就是不會知道
It's that thing of like 33. 就像是33歲那件事
So she's like, oh give you giving yourself some buffer time. 我媽媽說 給自己一些緩衝的時間
And I'm like, okay that's great 'cause then maybe you could 我覺得那很好啊 因為你有可能
have a kid like the age of 35 and I'm like, but yeah it. 會在35歲的時候有一個孩子
Could just be right there. 很可能剛好在那時候
Literally just like one ovulation cycle 很有可能就是在那一個排卵期
and next thing you know you're pregnant. 接著你就懷孕了
And then just the act of being pregnant is probably quite disruptive 是不是懷孕這件事本身就蠻混亂的
You probably feel ill a lot of the time. 你很有可能會經常覺得身體不舒服
Like you don't wanna go travelling 你可能不想去旅遊
You could be like sliced open 你有可能會需要被切開來
Oh god.
Oh god. 喔 天啊
And the baby hoicked out of you. 然後小孩就從你身體裡硬拉出來
然後小孩就從你身體裡硬拉出來
This is Annalisa everyone. 這位是Annalisa
Hello. 你好
People aged 30, women specifically, 現在30歲的人 特別是女性
over half have not got children now. 有一半以上的人沒有小孩
over half have not got children now. 為什麼會這樣 你有什麼想法嗎？
Have you got any idea like why that might be? 為什麼會這樣 你有什麼想法嗎？
Yeah, I'm one of them. 有 我就是其中一個
I suppose we, 我想 對我們來說
for example when my parents were young 譬如 我的父母在他們年輕的時候
for example when my parents were young
大概在大學畢業後就結婚生子了
they sort of got on with marriage and babies pretty much after uni. 大概在大學畢業後就結婚生子了
So like early twenties 所以是在20出頭時
and didn't really like question it. 他們也沒有想太多這個問題
I don't think my mum really wanted a career. 我不覺得我媽媽想要有自己的事業
So I think for us now, 所以對於我們現在來說
a lot of the time maybe you are building a career 很多時候 也許你想創立自己的事業
and there's other priorities 然後還有其他的優先順序
and there's other priorities
你想在成家之前先完成
that maybe you put first before having a family. 你想在成家之前先完成
Unlike my mom's generation, 和我媽媽那一代人不一樣
nowadays you get such a mixture. 現在你會面臨很多情況
You know, I know people who've had kids at, 我認識25歲
you know, 25, one of my best friends. 我認識25歲
you know, 25, one of my best friends. 就有孩子的人 是我其中一個最好的朋友
Married and had kids then and she's like perfectly happy. 結婚生子 她看起來非常幸福
And then the rest of us kind of, 然後我們其他人就是
lots of my friends have waited 我很多朋友就等到
and they've had them at like 31, 大約他們31歲的時候
and then me and my other best friend are still not. 然後我跟其他最好的朋友仍舊沒有
Do you think maybe the expectations 你覺得 對於我們應該給予小孩的
of what we're supposed to provide children has gone up? 期望是不是提高了？
Maybe it's not just being able to pay for food, 也許不只是可以購買食物
it's like, I dunno, education, 還有他們的教育
hobbies, holidays, all of those things. 興趣 假期 所有這樣的事情
Yeah, definitely. 對 完全同意
I think the thing is that 我覺得現在
I think the thing is that
I think the thing is that 對於生活品質的要求是非常高的
the quality of living now is very high. 對於生活品質的要求是非常高的
the quality of living now is very high.
So we have a great quality of life. 所以我們有很好的生活品質
But also I think the fact is 但我也覺得 事實是
because house prices are so high now, 因為現在的房價非常的高
you wouldn't have had to think about it so much in the past. 在過去 你不需要去考慮這麼多事情
This has happened through things like 這是透過
the buy to let schemes where you know, 買來租的計畫發生的
people just buy houses just to 人們買房子是為了
rent them out at very high prices. 人們買房子是為了
rent them out at very high prices. 以很高的價錢把它們租出去
So I think this means then that it's so hard 所以我認為這意味著
So I think this means then that it's so hard 年輕人是很難進入房屋市場的
for young people to get on the housing market. 年輕人是很難進入房屋市場的
for young people to get on the housing market.
Because also getting a mortgage is extremely difficult. 因為要得到抵押貸款也是非常困難的
As a someone on your own. 如果你是一個人
It's almost impossible. 這幾乎是不可能的
Yeah, it's almost impossible. 對 這幾乎是不可能的
對 這幾乎是不可能的
So this is my friend Emily, 這是我的朋友Emily
and she's an art therapist and we both live Brighton. 她是一位藝術治療師 我們都住在Brighton
So we were talking a bit about this topic before 我們之前有聊過這個話題
about whether there's pressure. 關於是否有壓力
Do you feel like there's pressure 你會覺得 在我們這個年紀
to have children at our age? 生小孩會有壓力嗎？
Well, so I'm 36 and I feel like 我現在36歲 我覺得
Well, so I'm 36 and I feel like
在過去的幾年 也許兩年前
in the last certainly year, but maybe two years, 在過去的幾年 也許兩年前
I've been feeling this pressure of my own biological clock 我自己的生理時鐘一直都有感受到壓力
and like having to, I guess do that internal exploration
and like having to, I guess do that internal exploration 像是需要問自己一些重要的問題
as to whether I want to choose to have a family in my lifetime 像是需要問自己一些重要的問題
as to whether I want to choose to have a family in my lifetime 至於是否我想要在人生中 選擇擁有一個家庭
as to whether I want to choose to have a family in my lifetime
以及因此我該要有什麼樣的考量
and therefore what kind of considerations 以及因此我該要有什麼樣的考量
以及因此我該要有什麼樣的考量
do I have to make or preparations 以及因此我該要有什麼樣的考量
do I have to make or preparations
do I have to make or preparations 我是不是需要有所準備
do I have to make or preparations
or what kind of conversations do I have to have
or what kind of conversations do I have to have 或是我在約會或正處在一段關係中時
when I've either been dating or I'm now in a relationship. 我需要談論什麼樣的話題
And how have you found approaching that? 那你如何面對這個問題?
So if you were dating someone, 當你在與某人約會時
at what point would you say, 你什麼時候會提到說
look I wanna have a family? 像是我想要一個家庭？
Well it's interesting 這很有意思
'cause I think it depends on how you're dating as well. 因為我覺得這跟你的約會模式也有關
So I was doing internet dating 像我在做網路約會
我覺得這是我人生的第一次
and I feel like for the first time in my life 我覺得這是我人生的第一次
然後覺得這本身是一整個世界
and I feel like it's a whole world in itself 然後覺得這本身是一整個世界
because to a certain degree you are listing things 因為在某種程度上 你正在陳列自己
like attributes about yourself and what you want. 譬如你自己的優點 還有你想要什麼
You know, you can state whether you want 你可以聲明你想要有個家庭
a family or whether you're 或是說你有抽煙
a smoker or not or these things, right? 或是類似的事情 對嗎？
So you start identifying yourself in a certain way 所以在某種程度上 你開始在做自我標識
and therefore you are then choosing 然後你也會基於這些條件
somebody else based on those things. 去選擇其他人
And sometimes people would write those things 有的時候 人們會寫這些東西
and some at times they wouldn't. 有時不會
有時不會
So it would end up usually being a conversation like, 有時不會
So it would end up usually being a conversation like, 所以通常會變成這樣的對話
I don't know, just quite casual for me. 所以通常會變成這樣的對話
I don't know, just quite casual for me.
I don't know, just quite casual for me. 我不知道 對我來說很隨意
I don't know, just quite casual for me.
but
but 但是
但是
Was it something that you'd feel comfortable 這事情是在你第一次約會時
bringing up on the first date? 可以很自在提起的嗎？
Yeah. 是
And like some dating experts are like, no, don't do that. 像一些約會達人會說 不 不要這麼做
But I feel like it's important, you know, 但我覺得這件事情很重要 你知道
it's important to me and I know that 但我覺得這件事情很重要 你知道
it's important to me and I know that 這對我來說是重要的 然後我知道
it's important to me and I know that
我想要找到
I wanted to meet someone 我想要找到
that had a certain like seriousness. 把這件事看得一樣重要的人
that had a certain like seriousness.
Why does a stable relationship take longer? 為什麼一段穩定的關係需要花更長時間？
Do you have any theories?
Do you have any theories? 你有任何理論嗎？
你有任何理論嗎？
I think that maybe people are maybe more picky both ways.
I think that maybe people are maybe more picky both ways. 我覺得可能是 雙方可能都很挑剔
我覺得可能是 雙方可能都很挑剔
So like some, 所以有的時候
both people are looking for something more than what's in front of them 兩個人都在尋找比眼前更多的東西
所以這也許導致他們比過去更頻繁的
and so that causes them to drift 所以這也許導致他們比過去更頻繁的
through multiple partners more than they used to, maybe, 游移在更多的伴侶之中
I don't know, what do you think? 我不知道 你覺得呢？
I agree, but I also think even 我同意 但是我也覺得
if you're not on Tinder or like dating apps, 就算你沒有在Tinder或其他約會軟體
I think there's, as you say, 我覺得就像你說的
there's a mentality of swipe, swipe, swipe. 有一種滑手機的心理
It's just like nah, 就像是
this isn't making me feel like 這不會讓我覺得
100% fulfilled and like complete. 100%的充實和完整
Like I found my other half. 如果我這樣找到了另一半
So it must be wrong. 所以這一定是錯的
If you roll the dice, 如果你擲骰子
maybe the next person will be a better fit. 也許下一個是更好的人選
People are a lot more wary about their partners now. 現在人們對他們的伴侶更加謹慎了
I don't know why. 我不知道為什麼
More like, oh this isn't quite right for some reason. 更像是 喔 這好像哪裡不太對
Yeah, people are more like 對 人們更傾向於
I'm not just gonna kind of settle. 我不想就這樣安定下來
I'm gonna like actually find something. 我要真的找到些什麼
Maybe that's education again. 可能又是教育
Too many options makes people more picky. 太多選擇會讓人更加挑剔
And then it's like the choice paradox. 這像是一個選擇悖論
Or even the acceptability of having many breakups, 或是對多次分手的接受程度
'cause that's totally fine, isn't it? 因為那完全沒關係 不是嗎？
Like, you mean as in as acceptable? 你是說可以接受？
It's acceptable to just breakup. 分手是可以接受的
It's acceptable to just breakup.
I guess it's a societal, 我猜這是一個社會的
like it's a shift in the way that people view it. 像是人們看待這件事有了些轉變
Which I don't think it's a bad thing 我不認為這是一件壞事
'cause otherwise people feel like pressured 因為 不然人們會覺得有壓力的
to stay in something that maybe isn't healthy. 去處在一段也許不健康的關係中
Yeah, that's true. 是的 沒錯
But yeah, then maybe it can go too far the other way 但 也許是完全相反的情況
But yeah, then maybe it can go too far the other way
But yeah, then maybe it can go too far the other way 就像是
where it's like yeah, 就像是
where it's like yeah,
nothing is ever gonna be as good as the picture in your head. 沒有什麼比你想象的更好
沒有什麼比你想象的更好
And that's probably also a lot of like media stuff as well. 這也很有可能是因為媒體的關係
Like a lot of films we see romanticize relationships. 像我們在很多電影裡看到很浪漫的感情關係
So you're kind of like, 所以你就會覺得
I'm gonna keep going till I find 我要繼續尋找
the one that looks like what's in the film. 直到找到像電影裡的人
Yeah, totally. 是的 沒錯
It's supposed to be perfect in so many ways. 這應該是要各方面都很完美
Yeah, and that one person's supposed 是的 這個人也應該是
to tick the boxes of like your best friend, 一個像是你最好的朋友的人
and like really caring and like can talk to you about anything 像是非常體貼 能跟你聊所有事情
and like really caring and like can talk to you about anything
and like, like so many things. 像是許多事情
and like, like so many things.
But then also all the opposing traits to that.
But then also all the opposing traits to that. 但也要有相反的特徵
But then also all the opposing traits to that.
Not only really funny but also really sensitive. 不只要很有趣 也要很善解人意
Like both introverted and extroverted. 像是既內向又外向的
A magical human. 一個神奇的人
And you have to find them when you are like 27, 28. 然後你必須在27 28歲時找到他們
Yeah, so that you've like grown yourself first, 是的 所以首先你自己成長了
然後現在你們可以一起成長
and now you can grow together. 然後現在你們可以一起成長
然後現在你們可以一起成長
There's like yeah there's 這就是
this perfect view of what it should look. 看起來最完美的樣子
But maybe this is like the teething period of 但可能就像那些舊思想
But maybe this is like the teething period of
those old ideas kind of going away
those old ideas kind of going away 的萌芽期正在消失
because they're becoming conscious in the fact 的萌芽期正在消失
because they're becoming conscious in the fact
because they're becoming conscious in the fact 因為他們開始意識到
that we're talking about it.
that we're talking about it. 我們正在談論它
that we're talking about it.
We've got these ideas from somewhere, 我們從某些地方得到了這些想法
and we haven't been explicitly told them. 我們還沒有很明確的告訴他們
It's definitely a question, 這一定是一個問題
yeah, definitely better than what it was but yeah, 是的 一定是比之前好
it doesn't feel like we're there yet 還沒有感覺我們到那裡了
'cause there's still a lot of like societal pressure 因為某種程度上
'cause there's still a lot of like societal pressure
'cause there's still a lot of like societal pressure 還是有很多社會壓力
to be a certain way. 還是有很多社會壓力
Yeah, there is. 還是有很多社會壓力
Yeah, there is.
Yeah, there is. 是的 確實有的
But where does that pressure come from? 但這樣的壓力是來自哪裡呢？
Because I know that everyone I know is just feeling pressure, 因為我知道每個我認識的人 只是感覺有壓力
因為我知道每個我認識的人 只是感覺有壓力
you know, no one's saying to me,
you know, no one's saying to me, 但沒有人跟我說
you gotta do this. 你必須要這麼做
I think we've also been taught now to never settle. 我覺得我們現在也教導不要安定下來
I think we've also been taught now to never settle.
It's like you can have anything you want. 像是你可以擁有一切你想要的
You can have anything. 你可以擁有任何東西
Like, you can have the perfect life. 你可以有個完美生活
A lot of people move around now as well, 很多人也到處居住
which is a good thing. 這是一個很好的事情
Like you should explore all aspects of life, 你應該去體驗生活的各方面
but that also means that you might 但這也可能意味著
not have a very stable relationship. 沒有辦法擁有一段很穩定的感情
I guess it depends on the person. 我覺得這也取決於人
Like long distance can work for some people. 就像某些人適合遠距離戀愛
I kind of just took it as an expected thing in my life. 我把它當成一件人生中可以預料的事情
I just assumed that I would have children 我就是認為我會有小孩
and because it felt so far away, 也因為感覺它非常遙遠
it was almost like I didn't really seriously consider 就像我沒有很認真的思考
it was almost like I didn't really seriously consider
因為它就像是已經安排好的 這會發生的
it because I was just,it was like a given. It'll happen. 因為它就像是已經安排好的 這會發生的
It doesn't need planning 這不需要計畫
'cause it's just something that's gonna happen. 因為它就是會發生
Like in a film. 就像電影演的一樣
Yeah, 是的
Yeah,
只是最近兩年
and it's only been the last like two years where I'm like, 只是最近兩年
and it's only been the last like two years where I'm like,
actually I think I really need to consider this 我確實該好好考慮這個問題
actually I think I really need to consider this
because I have a biological clock.
because I have a biological clock. 因為我的生理時鐘
because I have a biological clock.
I guess we can conceivably think of 我想我們可以理解
many people being the age where they might be expected to have children 很多人到了他們可能要生孩子的年齡
and finding actually that 卻發現
and finding actually that
and finding actually that 他們的關係存在了很多問題
there's a lot of issues with their relationship. 他們的關係存在了很多問題
there's a lot of issues with their relationship.
there's a lot of issues with their relationship. 他們常常吵架
They're arguing a lot 他們常常吵架
他們常常吵架
and they might think, 他們常常吵架
and they might think,
and they might think, 然後他們可能會想
and they might think,
I don't want to tie myself in and be committed 我不想束縛住自己
I don't want to tie myself in and be committed
並且不僅要致力於照顧一個孩子
to not just a child 並且不僅要致力於照顧一個孩子
but this relationship for 18 years. 還要維持這段關係18年
So they might just give up 所以他們可能就放棄了
and then give away the opportunity to have children potentially. 然後放棄可能生孩子的機會
and then give away the opportunity to have children potentially.
So fascinating, because I feel like that's 這真的很有意思 因為我覺得
a conversation I've been in myself, where you know, 那是我曾與自己的對話 你知道
there's uncertainties that arise within 在我二十多歲的時候
my relationship in my twenties 我的感情出現了不確定性
I would've been like,okay I'm gonna go over here now. 我的感情出現了不確定性
I would've been like,okay I'm gonna go over here now. 我會想 好吧 我現在要讓事情過去了
Like I'm not gonna stay with this relationship. 我不會再繼續這段關係
I haven't got time for that. 我沒有時間處理這件事情
Yeah, whereas now, 是的 然而現在
there's a different kind of weight on being single again 再次單身 還需要重新認識其他人
and having to rediscover another, 是一種不同的負擔
first of all like put myself out there again and go through 首先要讓自己再次進入關係
that dating phase, which is really confronting. 並經歷約會的階段 這真的是種對抗
that dating phase, which is really confronting.
You know, 你知道
something that's come into it for me as well 對我來說還有一件事
is this whole thing of assets, 就是資產
particularly in England, 特別是在英國
it's like people of my age have 就像我這個年齡的人
usually bought a house by now. 現在通常都買房子了
You know, within my social circles a lot of my friends have. 你知道 在我的社交圈裡 我很多朋友都有
And so I feel a certain degree of pressure around that. 因此 我對此感到一定程度的壓力
And that also played into my sense of self-esteem or value. 這也影響了我的自尊或價值觀
I was like, 我會去想
am I gonna be seen as someone that's of value enough? 我會被視為有足夠價值的人嗎？
Mm. 嗯
If I don't have certain assets that I can bring 如果我在這段關係中
to this relationship as a match to someone. 沒有帶來與對方相等的資產
Really? 真的?
Really. 真的
Oh, that never occurred to me. 喔 這從來沒有發生在我身上
I think maybe because I'm still thinking a bit traditionally 我想也許是因為我的想法仍然有些傳統
in the sense that as a woman 作為一個女人
maybe you wouldn't be expected to bring a house. 也許你不需要提供房子
Maybe a bit of money, 也許一點錢
a bit of cash to keep things going. 一點現金來維持生活
a bit of cash to keep things going.
Do you mean like having a career 你是指有一份工作
and contributing in terms of your salary. 然後你的薪水拿出來分攤
Yeah, I think so. 對 我是這樣想的
Maybe like the ability to maybe try 也許像是 有能力去嘗試
and buy a house with the partner. 與另一半一起買房子
Mm right. 與另一半一起買房子
Mm right. 嗯 對
Mm right.
And I dunno if I would have that as like as a criteria. 我不知道 我是否會把這當作一個擇偶標準
Like if the man had his own property, 我不知道 我是否會把這當作一個擇偶標準
Like if the man had his own property, 就像如果這男人擁有自己的財產
whether that would be something 我不知道那是否會
that would significantly affect my opinion of him. 很明顯的影響到我對他的看法
I don't know. 我不知道
Maybe it would, 有可能會
I guess again it depends on your age maybe. 我想那也許跟年齡有關
Well I was gonna say it didn't five years ago 好吧 五年前我會說它不會
and I feel like now it does, 但我覺得現在是如此
because if I'm gonna have a family 因為如果我要有一個家庭
there's a certain degree of stability around 那麼這個家庭生活
home and nesting that feels very, 必須要有一定程度的穩定性
like tangible to me, you know? 對我來說這是實際的 你懂嗎？
like tangible to me, you know?
One of my really good friends back in the UK is like 33. 我在英國的一個非常好的朋友 大約33歲
I know she really, really wants children. 我知道她非常非常想要一個孩子
我知道她非常非常想要一個孩子
But I think her partner, 但我覺得她的另一半
who's like roughly around the same age, 跟她差不多年紀
I think he's just like not ready. 我覺得他還沒準備好
Really wants to focus on his career. 真的只想專注在他的事業上
Really wants to earn more money 只想賺更多的錢
Really wants to earn more money 尤其是對於很多人來說
and especially for a lot of people that want to have 尤其是對於很多人來說
that like financial stability before they have a child. 想要在有小孩之前穩定經濟基礎
So many of us living in the UK 我們很多住在英國的人
are just not in that place at all. 都還沒有到這個地步
are just not in that place at all.
Yeah, totally. 是的 我同意
Especially when it comes to like owning a house. 特別是想擁有一間房子
I know for him he really wants to own a property first. 我知道他非常想先擁有一間房子
我知道他非常想先擁有一間房子
And that's something that takes years and years to save for. 而這需要花很多年去存錢
Yeah, and I wonder if maybe it's something 是的 我想知道
that's a bit overblown almost. 這是不是有點誇張了
It's almost like there's the idea that you have 這像是
to have bought a house first 你必須先買房子
and if you're renting then it's somehow 如果你是租房子
like too unstable or something. 就好像太不穩定了
Like there's a lot of 有很多
social pressure towards things like that. 來自社會的壓力
But actually when you kind of remove yourself 但是其實當你把自己
But actually when you kind of remove yourself
from it a little bit, 從中抽離出來一些
then you realize that it's not the case at all. 你就會發現這不是問題所在
你就會發現這不是問題所在
Like for example, for me now in Thailand,
Like for example, for me now in Thailand, 舉個例子 像我現在在泰國
it doesn't worry me at all that I don't own a property 我一點都不擔心我沒有房子
or that I don't have a substantial amount of savings 或我沒有非常可觀的存款
because I live in somewhere that's much cheaper. 因為我住在一個便宜很多的地方
because I live in somewhere that's much cheaper.
And I know people here that have children 我知道這裡很多有孩子的人
that just sort of make it work. 就是讓這一切順利進行
就是讓這一切順利進行
It's funny, like I think a lot of it 這很有趣 像我覺得很多
is actually just like a lot of fear 實際上 像是過多恐懼
Yeah.
Yeah. 對
Yeah.
about being ready when actually I don't think 是來自於心理準備 但事實上
our parents were really thinking about that as much. 我不認為我們的父母 真的有想那麼多
Yeah, totally. 是的 沒錯
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, totally. 對
對
Yeah. 對
Somehow mentality seems to have shifted, doesn't it? 不知怎麼的 心態似乎發生了變化 不是嗎？
It's almost like we're more perfectionist now, 好像我們現在更要求完美
want things to be just right 希望事情都好好的
want things to be just right
and then maybe do that.
and then maybe do that. 然後可能我們才會去做
and then maybe do that.
But yeah, my parents had me shortly
But yeah, my parents had me shortly 不過 我的父母在婚後
after they got married, 很快就有我了
you know,not even a year and they were 27
you know,not even a year and they were 27 你知道 甚至不到一年 那時他們才27歲
你知道 甚至不到一年 那時他們才27歲
and then they were still renting. 也還在租房子
也還在租房子
They went to live in Australia for a few years. 他們在澳洲住了幾年
Came back, rented for a while, had my brother. 搬回來 租房子一段時間 然後有了我弟弟
So I just feel like, 所以 我只是覺得
So I just feel like,
So I just feel like, 我無法想像 現在很多跟我同年齡的人會這樣子做
I can't think of many people my age now who would do that. 我無法想像 現在很多跟我同年齡的人會這樣子做
I can't think of many people my age now who would do that. 就是我有小孩還要去旅行
Just like, yeah I've got a kid and go traveling. 就是我有小孩還要去旅行
就是我有小孩還要去旅行
It's so bizarre. 這太不尋常了
'Cause they do exist, same as what you said, 因為他們確實存在 像你說的
they're not really in our generation. 他們不是我們這世代的人
Like I've met people in here in Thailand 我在泰國遇到一些人
that are like 10 years older than me 大概比我大10歲
他們都有年紀很小的孩子
and they've got young children 他們都有年紀很小的孩子
and they sort of still have their freedom 但他們繼續保有他們的自由
and they still travel 在有孩子的同時
but they have children at the same time. 在有孩子的同時
but they have children at the same time. 仍然到處去旅行
That's cool. 仍然到處去旅行
That's cool.
That's cool. 那很酷
That's cool.
And you know, they say you know, 而且你知道 他們覺得
it's totally possible, 這完全可行
不過我覺得我們這代人
but I think people in our generation maybe 不過我覺得我們這代人
but I think people in our generation maybe
but I think people in our generation maybe 也許說服自己無法做到
convinced themselves that it's not, 也許說服自己無法做到
convinced themselves that it's not,
and I dunno where that comes from. 我不知道為什麼這樣
I dunno where that's come from. 我不知道為什麼
It's weird isn't it? 這很奇怪 不是嗎?
'Cause I know lots of people also think 因為我知道很多人也認為
that your life just ends once you have children. 一旦你有了孩子 你的人生就結束了
一旦你有了孩子 你的人生就結束了
It's like you need to do all the fun stuff now 像是你現在要趕快做所有有趣的事情
because once you have children 因為一旦你有了孩子
there's gonna be no more fun in your life. 你的生活就再也沒有樂趣了
I mean even I think like that. 即使是我也這麼想
Yeah, me too. 我也是
Yeah, me too.
'Cause I'm still not, like I would love children 因為我還不是 我還是會喜歡孩子
因為我還不是 我還是會喜歡孩子
if the opportunity kind of, if it is meant for me. 因為我還不是 我還是會喜歡孩子
if the opportunity kind of, if it is meant for me. 如果對我來說時機對了
if the opportunity kind of, if it is meant for me.
if the opportunity kind of, if it is meant for me. 你知道如果發生了 但如果沒有發生 我也無所謂
You know, if it happens, if it doesn't, that's also okay. 你知道如果發生了 但如果沒有發生 我也無所謂
When I was younger I was a little bit more worried 當我更年輕時 我比較擔心
about the time pressure and aging 時間壓力 衰老
and being healthy 和保持健康
and being healthy
and I used to think, okay so I need to climb Everest, 我曾經想 好吧 我需要去攀登珠穆朗瑪峰
I need to go live in Asia, 我需要去亞洲生活
I to smash out all these things. 我要完成這所有事情
I need to go to this festival, that festival, blah, blah. 我需要去參加這個慶典 那個慶典等等
And I had like this mental list of like 我喜歡計畫這種
And I had like this mental list of like
我認為很難達成的心理清單
things that I thought I couldn't do. 我認為很難達成的心理清單
things that I thought I couldn't do.
So I had to get them done before, you know,
So I had to get them done before, you know, 所以我必須在30歲
So I had to get them done before, you know, 或其他年齡之前完成它們
the age of 30 or whatever. 或其他年齡之前完成它們
the age of 30 or whatever.
我聽說另一個有趣的理由是
So another interesting reason 我聽說另一個有趣的理由是
So another interesting reason
that I heard why people might not be having children anymore 另一個有趣的原因是
that I heard why people might not be having children anymore
is to do with climate change.
is to do with climate change. 是與氣候變遷有關的
I dunno if you've heard people say that as a reason. 我不知道你有沒有聽人說過這個理由
Yes. 有的
This is definitely like in the last few years I've heard it 我絕對有在近幾年聽說過
This is definitely like in the last few years I've heard it
and was in fact speaking with a mate the other day about it,
and was in fact speaking with a mate the other day about it, 事實上前幾天和一個夥伴談過這件事
事實上前幾天和一個夥伴談過這件事
male friend.
male friend. 男性朋友
male friend.
And effectively the reasoning was 具體推測是覺得
that we are kind of like the world's doomed. 我們要世界末日了
如果你把孩子帶到一個
And if you are bringing children into a world 如果你把孩子帶到一個
And if you are bringing children into a world
And if you are bringing children into a world 也許沒什麼未來可以給他們的世界
where they might not be much of a future for them, 也許沒什麼未來可以給他們的世界
where they might not be much of a future for them,
so maybe there's like no greenery left.
so maybe there's like no greenery left. 也許不再有有什麼綠色植物
so maybe there's like no greenery left.
so maybe there's like no greenery left. 環境在50年 100年後
環境在50年 100年後
Like the environment's a bit like screwed 環境在50年 100年後
Like the environment's a bit like screwed
就會變得很糟
in 50 years time,100 years time. 就會變得很糟
就會變得很糟
基本上是害怕將他們帶入一個
Basically a fear of bringing them into a world 基本上是害怕將他們帶入一個
that's kind of like we're destroying. 我們正在摧毀的世界
Yeah. 是的
Yeah.
And then the other thing would be the carbon footprint. 然後另一件事就是碳足跡
So the fact that, you know, 所以事實是 你知道
overpopulation has basically, yeah 人口過剩是基本的 對
人口過剩是基本的 對
caused a lot of problems to the planet 給地球帶來了很多問題
and if you are just adding to that problem, 如果你是在增加這個問題
it's not gonna get better. 它是不可能變好的
Mm, it's quite pessimistic isn't it? 嗯 這蠻悲觀的 不是嗎？
Really pessimistic. 真的很悲觀
I do feel, 我也覺得
I think we mentioned the climate change argument, 我想我們提到了氣候變遷的論點
that does cross my mind 我確實想到了
in the sense that I'm not so hugely eager to have children.
in the sense that I'm not so hugely eager to have children. 從某種意義上來說 我並不那麼渴望生孩子
So then I think, oh is that not an argument against 所以我想 哦 這不是持反對論點
that maybe bringing a child into the world 也許將孩子帶入一個
that you don't want 150% 150%你不想要的世界
is maybe not the best like, morally. 這也許在道德上不是最好的
Hmm 嗯
嗯
So it's almost like a moral consideration 所以 這應該屬於一個道德方面的考量
of bringing a life into the world 就是當我們已經在這個星球掙扎了
就是當我們已經在這個星球掙扎了
when we are already struggling a bit on this planet.
when we are already struggling a bit on this planet. 還將生命帶入這個世界
when we are already struggling a bit on this planet.
Makes me feel guilty thinking that their generation 一想到他們這代人不得不面對
Makes me feel guilty thinking that their generation
Makes me feel guilty thinking that their generation 我們現在面臨的所有問題 這讓我感到內疚
will have to cope with all of the problems that we have now. 我們現在面臨的所有問題 這讓我感到內疚
Yeah yeah 我們現在面臨的所有問題 這讓我感到內疚
Yeah yeah
Yeah yeah 對 對
there does seem to be a bit of
there does seem to be a bit of 似乎確實有
there does seem to be a bit of 一種普遍的感覺
a pervasive feeling of like, 一種普遍的感覺
should we really replicate ourselves? 我們真的要自我複製嗎？
Which is kind of sad, you know, 這有點讓人難過 你知道
like to not even have enough faith 就像沒有足夠的信念
in our species to want it to continue. 去延續我們這個物種
I'm interested how many, roughly, 我感興趣的是
would you say couples do you know that are 你知道大約有多少
like long-term couples who like feel that way
like long-term couples who like feel that way 在一起很久的夫妻
like long-term couples who like feel that way 因為這個原因而不想要孩子
and that they won't have children for that reason? 因為這個原因而不想要孩子
and that they won't have children for that reason?
I know just one. 我只知道一個
I don't think it's because of the climate change reason. 我不認為是因為氣候變遷的原因
I kind of think when it comes down to it, 我覺得歸根究底
that's not the primary reason. 那不是主要原因
It might be like a backup reason, 那只是個替代的理由
but it's probably something more like don't want the hassle, 更可能是不想要麻煩
prefer to be a bit more financially free, 寧願財務自由一點
that kind of thing. 之類的
What about you? 那你呢?
Only a couple, but definitely someone, you know 只有一對 但肯定是有的 你知道
Because of the climate change thing primarily. 主要是因為氣候變遷
Yes, and they're also vegan, 是的 他們同時也是素食主義者
so I kind of assume that it is genuine. 所以我覺得這是真的
It's definitely become a reason 這絕對可以成為
that you can tell other people. 你告訴其他人的理由
Even regardless of how authentic it is.I don't know. 即使我不知道它有多真實
Yeah, even a couple is quite a lot. 是的 即使只有一對也是很多
I mean just from your social circle, 我意思是在你的社交圈
like that's quite a lot of people. 這樣算很多了
Climate change. 氣候變遷
Oh yeah 喔 對
Is climate change factored in? 有考慮氣候變遷嗎？
Is climate change factored in?
For children, yeah, you know, 是的 對於孩子們
obviously I do a lot of the environmental 顯而易見的 我做了很多
obviously I do a lot of the environmental 環境行動倡導和活動 我也知道
like activism and campaigning and I do know 環境行動倡導和活動 我也知道
a lot of people in my social circles, 在我的社交圈裡有很多人
that is a really big factor for them. 這對他們來說是一個非常重要的因素
And yes, I do think to myself, 是的 我同時也在反思
not only are you contributing 不只是要你做出貢獻
to it by putting another human on the planet, 把另一個人帶到這個星球上來
but do you actually want to bring somebody 而是你是不是真的想讓他
into this state of play when we are already, 進入這個我們已經
into this state of play when we are already,
I mean touch wood if we hopefully live long enough,
I mean touch wood if we hopefully live long enough, 我意思是 如果我們如願的活得足夠長久
I mean touch wood if we hopefully live long enough,
但像我們已經在經歷氣候災難
but like we'll be living through climate disasters 但像我們已經在經歷氣候災難
but like we'll be living through climate disasters
and all that sort of stuff already in our lifetime. 還有所有在我們生命中存在的這類事情
Do you want to add somebody who's gonna have 當這一切有可能變得更糟
a potentially an extra like 30 years 你還會想再增加一個
of that when it could be getting even worse. 可能比你多活30年的人嗎？
But I remain optimistic basically. 但我基本上還是保持樂觀
I think that there will be, there will there already, 我覺得會有的 也已經有了
like climate change has already happened. 就像氣候變遷已經發生了一樣
It already affects us. 它已經在影響我們
It's not something in the future 這不是未來
that's gonna happen. 會發生的事情
It is here and now. 而且正在發生
But it's the reason why I continue to campaign 但為什麼我還持續參與活動
and talk about it and all that sort of stuff 訴說這些或這類的事情
because I am optimistic 是因為我樂觀的認為
我們作為全世界人民
that we as a whole world population 我們作為全世界人民
have the capacity to do amazing things 有能力做出很了不起的事情
並將這一切逆轉
and reverse it. 並將這一切逆轉
And so it is kind of like, 這有點像
there are people who I know who are very doom and gloom about it, 我認識的一些人非常的消極與悲觀
which is totally fair.
which is totally fair. 這是完全可以理解的
And so for that reason they're like, 出於這個原因 他們會說
oh I don't want to have children. 哦 我不想要孩子
But for me it's like all round 但對我來說
I'm relatively optimistic about the scenario. 我對這種情況是相對樂觀的
So I feel like, so the children aspect of it, 所以我覺得 在孩子方面
the only thing that I have is, 我唯一能做的就是
oh I'm contributing to it further 我通過在這個星球
by adding an extra person on the planet. 增加一個人 來為它作出進一步的貢獻
To be fair, 你對氣候變化
the way that you think about these things 有什麼看法？
I think I have to stay optimistic 我想我必須保持樂觀
because the alternative just seems 因為另一種選擇
like no way to wanna spend the rest of my life, 看起來是我餘生不想度過的
and like let alone like the future of humanity. 更不用說人類的未來了
Like just to be like, oh that's it, it's done. 就像 哦就這樣 結束了
Like just seems far too negative. 好像太消極了
I agree. 我同意
So has climate change ever factored in to your thinking? 你有考慮過氣候變遷嗎？
The times that it factors in is 當我會考慮這問題時
when I'm leaning towards 是當我傾向於
when I'm leaning towards
actually I do want to have children. 我的確真的想要小孩時
That's when I start to think, 當我開始去想
oh but I'd really love these children 哦 我真的很喜歡這些孩子
and like what if something bad happens? 如果發生不好的事情怎麼辦？
And then I start to think, 然後我開始想
oh my god the climate crisis, yes. 喔我的天 氣候危機 對
What's gonna happen in 50 years? 50年後會發生什麼事情？
It's everything's gonna be underwater. 會不會所有東西都沉到水底
And I think that's the time 我覺得這是
And I think that's the time
And I think that's the time 我考慮這個因素的時候
when I do consider that as a factor. 我考慮這個因素的時候
But I feel like it's the last thing. 我考慮這個因素的時候
But I feel like it's the last thing.
But I feel like it's the last thing. 但我覺得 這是我最後才會考慮的事情
Okay, okay. 但我覺得 這是我最後才會考慮的事情
Okay, okay.
Okay, okay. 好的 好的
Is this a responsible choice 這是一個負責任的決定
or am I doing this out of selfish needs? 還是我是出於自私的需求？
Like am I wanting to fulfill my, 我是想要實現
like a desire of mine 我的願望嗎
like a desire of mine 或是我在這一生中想體驗的
and something that I wanna experience in this lifetime, 或是我在這一生中想體驗的
rather than is that actually 而不是想要真的
gonna be contributive to society? 想對這個社會有所貢獻？
And what is the quality of life 還有這小孩會得到
that that child is gonna have? 還有這小孩會得到
that that child is gonna have? 怎麼樣的生活品質呢？
Hmm 怎麼樣的生活品質呢？
Hmm 嗯
Hmm
Again, when it comes to belief systems, 再來 當我們談到信仰體系時
what are your belief system systems, and like culturally, 你的信仰體系是什麼 從人文方面來看
like where do you come from 像你來自哪裡
像你來自哪裡
and how does that shape your perspective on things? 以及這如何影響你對事情的看法？
You know, because for instance in my personal beliefs 你知道 因為譬如在我個人的信仰中
You know, because for instance in my personal beliefs
You know, because for instance in my personal beliefs 有一種感覺 就像人類
有一種感覺 就像人類
there's this sense of like the human race 有一種感覺 就像人類
being inter like all connected 是相互聯繫的
being inter like all connected
and being one sort of, I guess energetic entity. 而且我想是一種能量的存在
And I suppose there's 然後我覺得
like this impending inquiry as to like, 像這即將發生的疑問
are we even gonna exist with global warming? 我們是否能與全球暖化共存？
You know, if it's increasing at the rate that it is, 你知道 如果這發生的機率一直上升
and therefore is it my responsibility 因此 不生小孩
for the greater whole of that entity not to have a child? 是我對整體的責任嗎？
Hm. 嗯
Hm.
So I remember when I was in my early twenties, 我記得在我20歲出頭的時候
I was in like a long-term relationship. 我在一段很長的感情關係中
I was with a guy for I think, five years in total. 我跟一個男生總共在一起5年
And like my mom used to talk like, 然後我媽那時常常說
"Oh when you have children, when you." 等你們有小孩了 等你們
And I hated it 'cause I was like, don't assume, 我很討厭她這樣說 因為我覺得不要去做假設
but she just assumed 但她就是這樣認為
但她就是這樣認為
because like I met him when I was like 16 因為我在16歲認識他
and we stayed together a really long time. 然後我們在一起非常久的時間
I think she just assumed that we were gonna marry 我想我媽就是認為我們會結婚
and have children because that's what she did 然後會有小孩 因為她自己就是這樣
and that's what her generation did. 她們那一輩的人也是這樣
But I was always not comfortable with the way 但她談論這件事的方式
that she'd speak about it. 總是讓我覺得不舒服
And even to the point of like she'd be, 她甚至到了什麼程度呢
keep like my toys from when I was a child 她會把我的小時候的玩具
and like put them in the attic, 收起來放到閣樓
and I'd say, why are you keeping those? 然後我問她 你為什麼要把它們留下來？
And she'd say you can give them to your children. 她就會說 你可以留給你的小孩
Oh right. 她就會說 你可以留給你的小孩
Oh right. 喔 好吧
I'm like don't assume I'm gonna have children. 我希望她不要認為我一定會有小孩
Because the interesting thing for me 因為對我來說 有趣的是
is that she didn't say that to my brothers. 她沒有這樣對我的兄弟們講這種話
So I'm one of three children 我是三個小孩中的其中一個
and I have two brothers, 我有兩個兄弟
one older, one younger. 一個哥哥 一個弟弟
So the thing that I didn't like about it, 所以我不喜歡的地方是
I felt that the energy, 我感覺得到那種能量
the pressure of like being her wanting to be a grandparent, 那種她想要成為祖母的壓力
like went to me. 全都到我這裏來
Mm. 嗯
In some cultures it's the moral consideration 在某些文化中 你必須要有孩子
is you need to have children 在某些文化中 你必須要有孩子
is you need to have children 這是一種道德上的考量
so that they can look after you when you're old. 所以當你老的時候 他們可以照顧你
And also because your parents might 然後也因為你的父母
want you to have children. 會希望你有小孩
It's like continuing the family line. 所以就可以把家族血脈延續下去
That's just not something 這不是我們
that we tend to think about is it？ 會傾向於思考的問題 對吧？
Most parents, like my parents 大部分的父母 像我的父母
would just want me to be happy. 只想讓我開心就好
Whether that's with children or without. 不管有沒有小孩都無所謂
Yeah,, continuing the family line. 對 延續家族血脈
If my mom did that I'd be like, 如果我媽這樣跟我說 我會說
do we have some sort of royal ancestors that requires it? 我們是有什麼皇室血脈要傳承嗎？
But I know friends 但我知道
who have had particularly,must be so awkward, 有過特別經歷的朋友們 一定覺得很尷尬
their parents, 他們的父母
no, their partner's parents put pressure on them. 不 是他們伴侶的父母給他們壓力
I have never ever, ever once thought 我從來沒有 一次都沒有想過
about carrying on the bloodline. 延續家族血脈這件事
There's enough people doing bloodline. 已經有足夠的人在延續家族血脈了
Do you think that your partner might have thought that 你覺得你的伴侶
or that his parents might have? 或他的父母有過這個想法嗎？
No is the short answer. 簡短的回答是 沒有
But basically his firstborn son 但基本上他們的長子
carries on the lineage basically, the lineage. 已經延續了這個血統 血統
Just like it's literally they're like wild. 他們實在有點瘋狂
So they have thought about it, that's what's- 所以他們曾經考慮過這個問題
So they have, the name is carried on 他們有考慮過 他們的名字已經
through their the firstborn son. 由他們的長子傳承下去了
And Michael is the firstborn son of the second born son. 然後Michael是次子的長子
So the firstborn son of the firstborn son already exists 所以長子的長子已經存在了
and he's already had a firstborn son 他已經有長子了
so he already exists over here. 所以他已經在這裡了
Wow. 哇
So we don't, no pressure. 所以我們沒有壓力
Wow. 哇
I don't know if my dad's side of the family, 我不知道我爸那邊的家族
they've probably thought about these sorts of things, 他們可能有想過這些事
and I'm just not relevant. 只是不太關我的事
So you're less pressure, 所以你沒什麼壓力
what about your brother though? 那你的哥哥呢？
He's younger and also my dad is the fifth child of my family. 他還很年輕 而且我爸爸是家裡的第五個小孩
so you've escaped basically, right? 所以基本上你算是逃出來了 對嗎？
Yeah, yeah, 對 對
That family has already continued. 那個家族已經延續下去了
I mean the idea of having children 我覺得生小孩
so they can look after you when you get older 是為了你老的時候 有人可以照顧你
is just not a consideration at all. 這完全不是一個考量因素
That's so true. 非常同意
And actually I think since I've been like living in Asia 事實上我覺得 自從我住在亞洲
and exposed more to Asian culture, 也接觸到更多的亞洲文化
especially like having Chinese friends 特別是跟我同年齡的
that are the same age as me, 中國朋友們
they have totally different pressures on them. 他們有完全不一樣的壓力
I know people that have just completely withdrawn socially 我知道有些人在他們20多歲時
around their mid twenties 就從社交圈完全退出了
because they realize, 因為他們意識到
because they realize,
hey I need to get my career going 嘿 我需要繼續我的職業生涯
otherwise who's gonna look after my parents? 否則誰來照顧我的父母？
Us in the west we're so privileged, I guess, 我覺得 我們在西方國家是很幸運的
because we don't have to think about that, 因為我們不需要去想這個問題
or most people just don't think about that. 或是大部分的人不會這樣想
I guess it's just not part of our culture. 我想這不是我們文化中的一部分
But also we have like old people's homes. 但我們也有養老院
Like my grandma was in an old people's home. 像我祖母之前就住在養老院
But I think through seeing 但我看了之後
that I was like I do not want my mom to be in one. 我在想 我不想要我媽媽去養老院
Like I just think they're awful. 我覺得這非常可怕
But like in Asia generally you don't have them. 但在亞洲 大部分是沒有養老院的
Yeah, but there is much more of that feeling 是的 但會有一種
of reliance on the state here, isn't there? 更想依賴國家的感覺 不是嗎？
Absolutely, there is. 當然 是的
I think there's mixed views 我想 在一些亞洲文化中
on that in some Asian cultures. 這話題會有很多不同的看法
Like maybe some people think oh they're so lucky. 也許有些人會覺得他們很幸運
Like the freedom in the West seems great, 像是西方國家的自由看起來很棒
and then others might think it 但在其他人看來
seems a bit selfish almost. 這看起來有一點自私
'Cause it's so individualistic. 因為這非常個人主義
It's like the connection to other members of the family 這像是與家庭其他成員的聯繫
and like wider society, 也像更廣泛的社會
it's just not quite there in the same way. 只是不太一樣
I do think it's selfish in some ways, 我也覺得這在某一種程度上是自私的
but I also think it's kinda not so much our fault 但我也覺得 這好像也不是我們的錯
because it's just, that's all we know. 因為這是我們所知道的
And then when we actually question it, 當我們真的去思考這個問題時
I think most people would say, 我想大部分的人會說
oh that's actually not right and it is selfish 喔 這其實是不對的 這是自私的
but it's because it's so ingrained 但因為這已經根深蒂固了
that we should just focus on ourselves. 我們只需要關注自己就好
But I think we're also moving to a new age 我覺得 我們也正在走向一個新時代
where the having no sense of responsibility 人們沒有責任感
is seen as a good thing. 被認為是一件好事
As in you should do what you want to do first 在你承擔責任之前
before having responsibility. 你應該先做你想做的事
Do it whilst you can before you have the kids. 在你有小孩之前去做你能做的
So then you're not responsible. 你沒有責任
And you can explore all aspects of your life. 你也可以去體驗生命中的每個方面
It almost feels like 這感覺就像
it's gone too far to me this, the whole, 整個個人主義的崛起
the rise of the individual. 在我看來有一些過分了
Yeah
Yeah 對
對
Like so much of what people do is just for themselves. 太多人做一些事情 只為了他們自己
Yeah, so it's bit selfish. 對 這有一點自私
And it's like forgetting 這就像是忘記
the fact that we are interconnected 事實上 我們是互相聯繫的
and like we do need other people, 我們也需要其他的人
and it's good for you as well to have responsibility. 有責任感對你也是好的
It's like a fulfilling thing. 這是令人滿足的事情
But it is, responsibility come in many ways. 但是 責任感有很多種不同的形式
So I think we always think of responsibility 我認為 我們總是從
in terms of having a family, 建立一個家庭的角度來談責任感
but what about the responsibility 但是擁有一份工作
of having a job or friends? 或是對朋友們的責任感呢？
Yeah, I guess people create different circles. 對 我想 人們會創立不同的圈子
Yeah. 是的
Now there are so many other 現在有很多其他
like socially accepted ways to build a family. 這社會可接受的方法去建立家庭
Like being a single parent or having 像是成為單親父母
a like non-heterosexual relationship as well. 或是有一段非異性戀的關係
People have realized like, okay, 人們開始意識到 好的
so I don't have to have this standardized 我不需要很制式化的
like boy meets girl love story, 像是男生女生相遇的愛情故事
and then we have children like actually it 然後我們有了孩子 可能最後會變成
might end up that I have a child on my own. 我自己養育小孩
Or it might end up that even some people 或甚至有些人
raising children with friends, you know, 是和朋友們一起養育孩子
like I really like reading 像我很喜歡讀這些
about these kind of non-traditional family systems. 關於非傳統家庭形式的東西
這個話題是不是很有趣
Isn’t this topic interesting? 這個話題是不是很有趣
We could talk about it for ages. 這個話題是不是很有趣
We could talk about it for ages. 我們可以聊很久
Next time we’ll look at some other related topics.
Next time we’ll look at some other related topics. 下次就繼續討論更多相關的方面吧
I hope you liked today’s video 希望你喜歡今天的內容
I hope you liked today’s video 如果你們撇除了經濟 教育 環境
Aside from financial or education related concerns 如果你們撇除了經濟 教育 環境
Aside from financial or education related concerns 你們還會想要小孩嗎？
would you still want children? 你們還會想要小孩嗎？
Let me know down below. 歡迎留言告訴我
See you next time! 我們下次再見