I've read all your books and I've even
read some of your peer-reviewed work
because when I was going to speak to to
you then I said you know what I'm going
to do my my homework yeah so I read
everything
one of the things that you said one time
in the maps of meaning
you started off the book by saying when
you were a young lad I don't know how
how young you were you said that
you found the doctrines of Christianity
incomprehensible and absurd yeah and you
also said that you found you had some
kind of issue with Christianity because
of the Genesis narrative and how
incongruent it was with scientific
narratives you went to a pastor you said
or a church clerical sign and then you
left the church now I've got a question
do you still have the same position or
have you changed your position
well I've changed my position a lot I
was only 13 then you know and I was I
was caught up in in the battle you know
to in so far it was manifested in me
when I was 13 I was caught in the battle
between Enlightenment rationality and
traditional narrative belief I had no
idea how to reconcile those two things
do you feel like you can do that no
I'm doing my best to reconcile yes and I
think yeah well I certainly can do it a
lot more than I did when I was 13. let
me give you an example right this this
point when you were 13 I think you were
thinking straight I'll be I'm sorry to
be very straight it's hard to believe
that someone is disagreeable with you as
you imagine because someone with an IQ
of 180 whatever you have you had someone
of your intelligence when you were when
you were 13 you probably had an IQ of I
don't know 120 or something yeah so he
was you were operating like my friend
over here alidao I said it's on his
level we're at the age of 13. but what I
was going to say was that you know
the reason why I think he was there
because look at the Trinity for example
look at the schisms man this goes your
specialism that the idea of three
all-powerful entities that Jesus is all
powerful that the father is all power
the son is all powerful the holy spirit
is all powerful but there's not all what
there's not three or powerfuls there's
one more powerful you have one
ultimately willing being with your
person which is Jesus then another
person which is ultimately willing which
is the sun the Quran says about this
in chapter 23 verse number one 91 it
says that Allah has not taken any son
and he doesn't he did not have any
creator with him
had that been the case they would have
stripped one another for what they would
have competed and tried to outstrip one
another for power meaning this idea of
three all-powerful persons is
unintelligible to say the least the idea
that Jesus Christ exhibits two Natures
for I know that there are schisms and
there's a difference of opinion among
Christians but the fact that you have
this Human Nature
where Jesus is walking and he sees the
tree and he can't eat from the tree he
doesn't know that the tree is uh in
season or not although he doesn't know
when the hour is or whatever it may be
the Quran says it very clearly
him and his mom you see food this
proposition that they are limited and
unlimited at the same time is a
contradiction it's an affront to logic
that's it this will cause you cognitive
dissonance because if you want to be a
rational actor and you want to be that's
the thing yeah yeah I don't want to be a
rational actor but you do when you do
your scientific experiments that's true
so why'd you why'd you separate the two
things
because rationality should be
subordinated to something above it and
I'm trying to subordinate myself to that
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and so my my reaction to what you're
saying
um is that it's an in this isn't an
insult yeah I'm telling you what my
reaction is please it's not it's not
even a criticism of course I find the
discussion that discussion as soon as it
started I found that less interesting
than what we were doing before it was
harder for me to focus on and I I think
the reason for that is that
it it it transforms to some and I'm not
saying this isn't necessary sometimes
but it transforms the Transcendent into
something like an intellectual and
propositional discussion and so in some
sense we're debating perhaps not the
fine points of theology because they're
more like the blunt points of theology
but there's something about that that
there's something about that that isn't
what I want to do with you yes you know
and it isn't that it's not necessary so
let me flip it around right I agree so
one of the things I'm very curious about
is obviously the figure of Christ is
contentious yes and so the Jews don't
know what to make of Christ in some
fundamental sense because he seems like
the last
he seems like and what would you a
continuation of the prophetic tradition
in some real sense plus he was Jewish so
that makes things complicated and then
of course the Christians put the figure
of Christ as as Central in some real
sense but that begs the question of the
relationship between Christ and God and
then in the Muslim Community Christ is
also a central figure and so I'm curious
about that and we could say we have
doctrinal differences about what
constitutes that centrality it's like
fair enough and I would also not say
that I understand
what that centrality means like so one
of the ways I would understand that
let's say is that
in in the western tradition and I don't
know to what degree this is true in the
Muslim tradition one of the
attributes of what Christ is
psychologically is the logos and so if
we're engaged in dialogue which is
dual logos then we're embodying the
spirit of something like Mutual
Enlightenment and that's then the
presence of that spirit in the in the
genuine confines of temporal reality
right it's something like the infinite
descending to the finite to illuminate
us and to the degree that we can have a
dialogue in good faith which is also a
religious notion then we can engage in
that process of dialogues and that
transforms and redeems us and then when
I say well do I believe that I say well
it isn't just that I believe it as a
proposition it's that I can tell when
it's happening and so can you I think is
like you're going to see that this
conversation will ebb and flow you know
and some of the time it's going to grip
you you think we're at the heart of the
matter and sometimes your attention is
going to wander your attention is going
to wander when we're off the path and so
I would say that yes to the degree that
you and I are communicating this is a
religious way of thinking about it is
that we're doing our best to embody the
spirit of the logos and if that's
working then we're making progress and I
know that in the western tradition
that's part of what has been
conceptualized as the fundamental
attribute of of the figure of Christ and
I know that Christ is Central in the
Muslim tradition and so one of the
things I would want to know is not how
we differ doctrinally yeah because I
don't even think I'm qualified to to
debate you on that okay I've got the guy
here well JoJo might have some things to
say but yeah but what I would like to to
know instead is why do you believe that
the figure of Christ is Central in some
sense or maybe I've got that wrong
although I don't think so why do you
think the figure of Christ is Central
both to the Muslim faith and the
Christian faith and what do you think
that says about what we share in common
because I really don't understand that
it's a mystery to me okay so Jesus
Christ if secular historians will look
at him and differ in his existence or
not the majority to be fair do believe
he existed right the even second hand
stores atheists on agnostics and
whatever it may be right it's the
simplest explanation yeah it's a simple
of course yeah so I believe that first
of all Jesus Christ existed which in the
modern age is worth noting right Muslims
actually Muslims only only other major
world religion who believe in Jesus
Christ as the Messiah as the prophet
right yeah this is a strange thing so we
should definitely be trying to sort that
out