GEOFF BENNETT: Good evening. I'm Geoff Bennett.
AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.
On the "NewsHour" tonight: The bill to raise the debt limit heads to the Senate after passing
the House with bipartisan support.
GEOFF BENNETT: Federal prosecutors obtain an audio recording of former President Trump
discussing one of the classified documents he kept after leaving office.
AMNA NAWAZ: And tensions run high in Pakistan, as former Prime Minister Imran Khan awaits
another possible arrest and his supporters rally to his side.
IMRAN KHAN, Former Pakistani Prime Minister: I'm isolated, quite insecure, all my senior
leadership in jail or they have told them that, look, anyone who wants
to come out, he has to renounce his membership of my party.
(BREAK)
AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "NewsHour."
The deal to raise the federal debt ceiling is moving tonight toward final passage in Congress.
Pressure on the Senate built today, after the House approved the bill last night.
GEOFF BENNETT: It has to happen before the government's borrowing authority maxes out
on Monday.
That would trigger a national default.
Congressional correspondent Lisa Desjardins starts our coverage.
LISA DESJARDINS: The fate of the debt ceiling bill and the economy now lies in the Senate's hands.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Time is a luxury the Senate does not have.
LISA DESJARDINS: This morning, Majority Leader Chuck Schumer urged quick action to avoid default.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER: June 5 is less than four days away.
At this point, any needless delay or any last-minute holdups would be an unnecessary and even dangerous risk.
MAN: Yeas are 314.
The nays are 117.
The bill is passed.
LISA DESJARDINS: The measure has big momentum after overwhelming bipartisan passage in the
House last night.
Majorities of both parties backed the bill.
The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office says the legislation will cut the deficit
$1.5 trillion over the next decade.
It also includes concrete spending limits for two years, new work requirements for older
people on food stamps, with exemptions for some others, a restart of student loan payments,
and a shorter timeline for environmental reviews of big projects.
House Speaker Kevin McCarthy took a victory lap with the GOP team of negotiators.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): This is fabulous.
This is one of the best nights I have been here.
I thought it would be hard.
I thought it would be almost impossible just to get to 218.
Now I found there's a whole new day here.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Now it's our turn in the Senate.
LISA DESJARDINS: Both Republican and Democratic senators also backed the bill, adding to a
sense that it will pass.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN: As painful as some of the decisions that will come from this agreement
reach, they are virtually at this point inevitable to avoid default on our debt.
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): I want to commend Speaker McCarthy for negotiating a legislation
that makes responsible reductions in government spending, while avoiding a government default.
LISA DESJARDINS: But some opposing senators are standing in the way of a fast process,
asking for amendment votes first.
Kentucky Republican Rand Paul's would cut more spending.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): The Biden-McCarthy deal is not conservative in any way, shape, or form.
It doesn't reduce spending.
It allows spending to continue to increase.
LISA DESJARDINS: Some progressive Democrats say the bill cut too much, hurting the vulnerable.
Another issue, the bill would fast-track the contentious 303-mile Mountain Valley Pipeline
supported by West Virginia lawmakers.
Virginia Senator Tim Kaine wants a vote on that.
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): For a private company to build a pipeline, they have to get approval
that its necessary and the route is good.
But then, once that, they're entitled to take people's land.
In Appalachia, Virginia, it's the hardest-hit part of my state.
People don't have a lot.
Sometimes, land is all that they have.
LISA DESJARDINS: The bill needs at least 60 votes, and appears to have it.
With a ticking debt clock, the question is when that vote happens.
GEOFF BENNETT: And, Lisa, you have been covering all of this from one side of the Capitol to
the other for months now.
Where do things stand right now?
LISA DESJARDINS: Feels like years, but it's only been a few months.
We have news at this moment.
Senators have been trying to negotiate that critical time agreement to make sure they
can make the deadline for this vote.
And we're told by our producer Kyle Midura, who is there at the Capitol right now, that,
in fact, we expect votes now in the next one half-hour.
This is the Senate floor.
Currently, you see Virginia Senator Tim Kaine there in the chair.
Looks like nothing's going to happen.
But this is exactly that moment that I tell voters about when rainbows appear in the Senate.
(LAUGHTER)
LISA DESJARDINS: And I think what we will have is a late night.
The Senate probably will complete this tonight or in the early hours to morning.
Two things you and I know about the Senate, one, each senator represents a state.
Two, they don't meet on Fridays.
GEOFF BENNETT: That's right.
LISA DESJARDINS: Many of them already have their flights home.
This could be wrapped up tonight or in the early morning hours.
GEOFF BENNETT: Let's talk about the bill because Speaker McCarthy has said that this would
save $2 trillion.
You have been looking into this.
Does that math add up?
LISA DESJARDINS: I'm sure our viewers have heard that $2.1 trillion figure.
It is sort of a -- kind of idea that, if you squint your eyes and look at it, you can get
to $2.1 trillion by including the suggested spending caps that are not required, but that
are essentially suggested in future years.
But if you look at just what the bill requires, it is only a $1.5 trillion cut.
I will say also that important in the Senate negotiations is the next step for appropriations.
Some Senate Republicans have been trying to make back deals today to make sure that appropriations
bills pass and also that there's money for the military, maybe in a separate funding
bill from this deal.
GEOFF BENNETT: Big picture, what has this protracted debate about the debt ceiling shown
us about the parties?
LISA DESJARDINS: Right.
We have been spending so much time on the nitty-gritty, the votes, the details, the
dollars, but I think there are some really important moments here.
Number one, this is one of the first times that we have seen the House taking the lead
on anything.
Senators are uncomfortably feeling the House forcing them to act today.
But, with that, when you look at the House Republican leadership and the Republicans
in general, this is the first time that I can remember seeing Republicans in the last
four years move toward the center.
And they did it en masse.
Until now, we have experienced that dynamic where someone is very far on the right, and
the rest of the conference feels like they have to go as far right as possible.
Instead, what we have seen here is Republicans go toward the middle, also an example of regular
process.
GEOFF BENNETT: Could that happen again, though?
LISA DESJARDINS: Oh, completely.
GEOFF BENNETT: I mean, what does that suggest about legislation moving forward?
Has the far right lost their pull?
LISA DESJARDINS: I think that there was an issue here with a catastrophic potential consequence.
There was also an novel factor that President Trump, the former president, was not really
involved here.
And I think you see his pull, whenever he rings in, is still strong with House Republicans.
So if he gets involved, then that does matter.
I asked Senator -- Speaker McCarthy last night, hey, you guys rolled up your sleeves.
You did what the country wanted.
That's the other lesson here.
People want compromise.
They figured it out.
I said, hey, could you use this template for other things like immigration?
He actually didn't really answer that question.
And I took it as kind of a no, but there is some hope there.
The problem, of course, what really mattered here was that deadline, the catastrophic potential
default, and that got them to act.
GEOFF BENNETT: So what about the Democrats, then?
What did you learn about the Democrats from this experience?
LISA DESJARDINS: You know, I think, in the end, the Democrats, they will tell you, especially
if this passes, they feel like they got the better deal.
Shalanda Young, the OMB director, is universally cited as one of the smartest people involved
in this whole thing.
And I think Democrats feel like they did better in the end than Republicans did, especially
with future triggers.
They feel a lot of the different changes in here have many out clauses and waivers that
they think the government can get around.
GEOFF BENNETT: So we will be back here in two years talking about the next effort to
lift the debt ceiling.
LISA DESJARDINS: Bad news.
We will be back here this summer when they start talking about how to divvy up this funding.
GEOFF BENNETT: Wow.
OK.
All right.
(LAUGHTER)
GEOFF BENNETT: Lisa Desjardins, always great to see you.
Thanks so much.
LISA DESJARDINS: Thank you.
AMNA NAWAZ: In the day's other headlines: The Senate voted to rescind President Biden's
plan canceling federal student loan debts for 43 million people.
The vote was 52-46, as Democrats Joe Manchin and Jon Tester, plus independent Kyrsten Sinema,
joined Republicans in the majority.
The White House has promised a veto, but the plan's ultimate fate lies with a Supreme Court
decision expected this month.
The president himself was on the road today, urging the nation's newest military officers
to maintain American leadership in a world that's getting more unstable.
He addressed the U.S. Air Force Academy's commencement in Colorado Springs and told
the graduates they face what he called a mighty responsibility.
JOE BIDEN, President of the United States: The world you're graduating into is not only
changing rapidly.
The pace of change is accelerating as well.
We're seeing proliferating global challenges, from Russia's aggression and brutality in
Europe, to our competition with China, and a whole hell of a lot in between.
AMNA NAWAZ: After speaking, the president donned a cap under the bright sun and shook
hands with more than 900 graduates for 95 minutes.
Then, as he turned to sit down, he stumbled and fell, but was helped up and appeared unhurt.
The White House said he tripped on a sandbag, but that he's fine.
Two more members of the Oath Keepers extremist group were sentenced today for seditious conspiracy
and other crimes in the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.
A federal judge in Washington gave one of them 4.5 years in prison.
The other got three years.
Last week, Stewart Rhodes, the far right group's founder, was sentenced to 18 years in prison.
In Ukraine, Russia kept up its month-long bombardment of Kyiv overnight, inflicting
the most casualties yet.
Authorities in the Ukrainian capital said they shot down all of the missiles, but falling
debris killed three people, including a young girl and her mother.
Meantime, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy met with European leaders at a summit in Moldova.
He pressed again for more weapons and for action on admitting Ukraine to the NATO alliance.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, Ukrainian President: And this year is for decisions.
And this is the sort of point I would like to emphasize.
In summer in Vilnius, at the NATO summit, a clear invitation to membership for Ukraine
is needed and the security guarantees on the way to NATO membership are needed.
AMNA NAWAZ: So far, NATO members are split on the possible timing of Ukraine's accession
to the alliance.
The main Russian intelligence agency is accusing the U.S. of hacking thousands of Apple iPhones
inside Russia.
The Federal Security Service charged today that -- quote -- "hidden data collection was
carried out through software vulnerabilities in" the phones.
The Russians said the U.S. National Security Agency is using new malware and working closely
with Apple.
The company and the NSA had no immediate response.
Back in this country, a federal policy protecting hundreds of thousands of people from deportation
went back before a federal judge in Houston today.
The DACA program currently covers nearly 600,000 immigrants brought here as children.
The judge struck it down in 2021, but an appeals court ordered him to review changes made by
the Biden administration.
And, on Wall Street, congressional action on the debt limit helped the stock markets mood.
The Dow Jones industrial average gained 153 points to close at 33061.
The Nasdaq rose 165 points, or 1.3 percent.
The S&P 500 was also up 1 percent.
Still to come on the "NewsHour": the 2024 Republican race kicks into a higher gear as
presidential candidates travel to key early primary states; increasingly long freight
trains cause problems for communities near railroad crossings; manufacturers struggle
to keep up with renewed demand for cassette tapes; plus much more.
Federal prosecutors have a recording of former President Donald Trump discussing a classified
Pentagon document he kept after leaving office, multiple outlets report.
Laura Barron-Lopez takes a deeper look at the former president's legal battle.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: In the 2021 recording, which the "NewsHour" has not independently
verified, Trump says the document details a potential attack on Iran.
Trump also acknowledged he retained the sensitive document after leaving the White House, representing
a potentially significant piece of the Justice Department's investigation into the former
president.
Joining me now to discuss is Oona Hathaway, a professor at Yale Law School and former
special counsel at the Pentagon.
Oona, thanks so much for joining us.
The recording reportedly shows Mr. Trump knowing that the document he kept was classified.
How significant is that?
OONA HATHAWAY, Yale Law School: It's very significant, for at least two reasons.
So, first, it makes clear that he did not, contrary to his claims, actually declassify
or even think that he declassified everything before he left office.
So one thing he said is he didn't unlawfully retain classified documents because he just
declassified everything before he took it away to Mar-a-Lago.
This recording makes clear that he knows that at least some of the documents he retained
are classified.
And, second, it makes clear that he did it knowingly.
He knows that these are classified documents.
He knows he's holding on to classified documents.
And that's really essential to the criminal case against him.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: According to this recording, Trump said that he wanted to share the information
in this document, but understood the potential legal limitations.
Could this apply to the DOJ's investigation into a potential Espionage Act violation?
OONA HATHAWAY: Yes, so the Espionage Act covers a range of activities with regard to classified
information.
So, the particular provision that he might be charged with provides that, if somebody
doesn't have lawful access to a classified document, which somebody who is out of office,
like even a former president, doesn't have lawful access to the document, if they retain,
prevent the government from having access to and continue to hold classified documents,
even if they don't intend to transmit them, so just last knowingly holding on to these
documents is a violation of the Espionage Act.
And so it's clear, even if he didn't intend to transmit them, that he's effectively admitting
to a violation of the Espionage Act.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: And this document had to do with, as we said, a potential attack
on Iran.
And we should note that we don't know at all whether or not there is any type of potential
U.S. attack on Iran.
But recent reports also found that Mar-a-Lago -- at Mar-a-Lago, there was a maintenance
worker who testified to the Justice Department that they saw a Trump aide moving boxes to
a storage room the day before a meeting that was supposed to be held last year between
Trump's lawyers, as well as Justice Department officials.
What is the relevance of that legally?
OONA HATHAWAY: Yes, well, this suggests that -- what Trump has been saying is, these were
documents were his, and none of them were classified.
And so this recording suggests that these documents that he knows he was holding on
to, he knows he took them with him from the White House to Mar-a-Lago.
He's holding on to them, and he says, well, I'm just moving them around.
I'm just storing them.
Well, this evidence suggests that he knew that those documents were classified, or at
least some of those documents were classified.
And then, when he's ordering them to be moved and stored, it does suggest that he's attempting
to conceal them from the federal government.
And remember that the government had been asking for these documents back.
The National Archives had recognized the documents were missing, and have requested the president
turn them over.
The president was insisting that they belong to him.
Now this recording suggests he knows our classified.
Classified documents can't belong to somebody who doesn't have lawful access to those documents
and who's out of office.
Those are, by definition, presidential records.
So it really is evidence that all these things that have been leaking out, kind of together
with this recording, suggests that, in fact, the president knew he was unlawfully retaining
these documents, he knew that they were classified, and he knew that, if he continued to hold
them and conceal them from the government, that he would be violating the law.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: The fact that a Trump aide appeared to move some of these classified
documents to a storage room, could that apply to the potential obstruction charge?
OONA HATHAWAY: Yes, so obstruction of justice requires that he knowingly retain and conceal
documents that are relevant to an ongoing investigation.
And the fact that he knew that these documents or at least some of these documents are classified
-- now, we don't know if this particular documents that he's referring to in this recording are
in those boxes that were moved.
But it does suggest he knows that many of the documents that he's retaining were classified,
and that he was intentionally moving them in order, it seems, to avoid the FBI obtaining
them and keep them from the National Archives.
And so that is suggestive of a violation of the obstruction of justice, because that requires
knowingly -- and this recording suggests that he knew precisely what he was doing.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: When you take all of these facts together, do you think that the Justice
Department is going to ultimately charge the former president?
OONA HATHAWAY: I think it makes it very hard for them not to, frankly.
I mean, there have been lots of people who have gone to jail for much less.
Reality Winner, who recently was released from prison, went to jail for retaining a
single document and transmitting it to a -- to The Intercept.
That was one document.
And this seems to be much more than that.
And this is clear evidence that the president knew what he was doing, he knew that he was
retaining them, that they retained -- they remained classified, and they had real likelihood
of being able to do damage to U.S. national security, which is the definition of national
defense information in the Espionage Act.
So I think it actually makes it hard for a prosecutor not to bring a case, given how
clear the evidence is.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Oona Hathaway, a professor at Yale Law School and former special counsel
at the Pentagon, thank you so much.
OONA HATHAWAY: Thank you so much.
AMNA NAWAZ: With the summer campaign season in full swing, the Republican presidential
hopefuls are crisscrossing early voting states, hoping to stand out in a growing field of
candidates.
Former President Donald Trump, back in Iowa today.
DONALD TRUMP, Former President of the United States: Make America great again, that's a
very simple -- a very simple statement.
AMNA NAWAZ: With a commanding lead in the polls for the Republican presidential nomination
and spouting his familiar and false claims of a stolen election.
DONALD TRUMP: And then you had a rigged election, let's face it.
OK, you had a rigged election.
AMNA NAWAZ: But for some GOP voters who like Trump's message, there are still questions
about his style.
RITA MATTSON, New Hampshire Voter: The person I want is so divisive that it's just like,
you know, can't you please just get along with people?
AMNA NAWAZ: Others are ready to move on entirely.
RYAN KELLY, Iowa Voter: Trump's really powerful.
You can't dismiss him or undersell him in any way.
But we have already seen that.
AMNA NAWAZ: In Iowa this week, a few hundred people looking for an alternative to Trump
packed into this evangelical church auditorium to see his major rival.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
AMNA NAWAZ: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis made his first early state appearance as an
official candidate, touting his record handling the COVID pandemic and challenging what can
be taught in schools.
GOV.
RON DESANTIS (R-FL), Presidential Candidate: In Florida, we proved that all of this can
be done.
We chose facts over fear.
We chose education over indoctrination.
We chose law and order over rioting and disorder.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
AMNA NAWAZ: Trump has grown increasingly critical of the governor in recent weeks, calling him
Ron Disaster and Ron DeSanctimonious.
DONALD TRUMP: If it takes eight years to turn this around, then you don't want him.
AMNA NAWAZ: DeSantis delivered his most forceful pushback yet.
GOV.
RON DESANTIS: He used to say how great Florida was.
Hell, his whole family moved to Florida under my governorship.
Are you kidding me?
(LAUGHTER)
AMNA NAWAZ: Some voters believe DeSantis offers greater potential to reach beyond the GOP
base.
STEVE CAPPAERT, Iowa Voter: I think we need a candidate who won't be divisive and can
actually get independents to also vote for him.
AMNA NAWAZ: With half-a-dozen candidates already in the race, other contenders are hoping to
catch fire with voters in the critical early nominating states, whether it's former Governor
Nikki Haley answering questions about abortion in the Granite State.
NIKKI HALEY (R), Presidential Candidate: I'm being very honest with you.
I can't suddenly change my pro-life position because I'm campaigning in New Hampshire.
AMNA NAWAZ: Or Senator Tim Scott sharing his life story.
SEN.
TIM SCOTT (R-SC), Presidential Candidate: When I look back and I look forward in our
nation, I understand the misery uniquely that comes with broken pieces and a broken family
and a broken heart.
Putting those together for our nation is my responsibility.
AMNA NAWAZ: A strong performance in Iowa, New Hampshire, or South Carolina could propel
underdog campaigns into competitive spots.
STATE REP.
JEANINE NOTTER (R-NH): We absolutely have to win because I think our country is done
if we have to do another four years on the current path.
And I'm going to be paying very close attention to see who can win.
AMNA NAWAZ: The candidates will soon have more competition.
Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, and former
Vice President Mike Pence are all expected to launch campaigns for the Republican nomination
next week.
For an on-the-ground look at the candidates and voters in early states, I'm joined by
Kay Henderson, the news director for Radio Iowa and moderator of "Iowa Press" on Iowa
PBS, and Gavin Jackson, a reporter for PBS station South Carolina ETV and host of "This
Week in South Carolina."
Welcome to you both.
Kay, let's begin in Iowa, the caucuses, of course, still first-in-the-nation for the
Republicans, obviously, the candidates showing up there early and often.
How is that resonating with voters on the ground?
What do they tell you they're looking for?
KAY HENDERSON, News Director, Radio Iowa: Well, it depends on the person you ask.
One of the people at a Trump event today said to me, it appears to him that the nomination
is Trump's to lose.
When you go to DeSantis' events, they're looking for something different.
They're looking for something new.
In fact, one of the people that I interviewed on Monday told me that he's looking for someone
who's not geriatric.
There's a fear among some DeSantis people that putting a rematch of Trump versus Biden
would not turn out well for the party.
But Iowans are not by any means making up their minds as a group right now.
They're sampling other candidates, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, the South Carolinians.
There was a small group that met with Vice President Mike Pence earlier in May.
And, of course, he will be coming to Iowa next week to announce he's jumping in the
race.
One of the dynamics here is that the more people that enter this race, the likelier
that Donald Trump will be able to prevail in the Iowa caucuses, because -- just because
of the sheer number of people in the race.
AMNA NAWAZ: Gavin, what about in South Carolina?
What are you hearing from voters there?
GAVIN JACKSON, South Carolina ETV: Yes, similar to what Kay was talking about there, I mean,
I just got off of a swing from Tim Scott's campaign launch.
He launched on May 22 in North Charleston.
It was a very similar launch to what we saw with Nikki Haley making her bid in February.
And I followed both of those candidates to the battleground states in Iowa, New Hampshire
after their launches in South Carolina.
And a lot of folks are saying the same things in those early voting states, as we're saying
here in South Carolina.
They're waiting to see this field gel.
They're trying to see who has the strongest message, since so many people have similar
messages, too.
And that's not too dissimilar from what we're hearing from Tim Scott and Nikki Haley, talking
about their backgrounds, introducing themselves to voters out there in Iowa, New Hampshire,
as we await to hear from more candidates on the ground here in South Carolina.
Obviously, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is stopping in South Carolina on Friday as part
of his 12-city swing, a huge kind of campaign launch that we have seen from Ron DeSantis
that we didn't see from Tim Scott the other day.
He had a big kickoff in North Charleston, but then he went to Iowa, had one town hall,
handled it pretty well, had about 200, 300 people there, had a roundtable with some educators
as well, and then went to New Hampshire, and had a small meet-and-greet with some New Hampshire
Republican women.
So, a bit different from what we're seeing from Ron DeSantis and from what we saw with
Nikki Haley.
She had multiple town hall events too.
So it seems like Tim Scott's really trying to get into campaign mode right now from that
listening tour mode.
AMNA NAWAZ: But, Gavin, when you talk to these folks in the early voting states, though,
are there particular issues that they're really paying attention to?
We heard Nikki Haley talking about abortion access.
Ron DeSantis has been leaning into this anti-woke message, right?
We heard all the candidates bashing the debt ceiling deal here in D.C.
Does any of that matter to those voters?
GAVIN JACKSON: Yes, you hear a lot about on the stump about anti-woke, fighting against
this victimhood stuff that we're talking about, and it gets a lot of applause lines out there.
But, actually, day-to-day voters, that's not the first thing that they bring up when I
ask them, what are your top issues?
It's the economy, it's education, it's making sure that the country can move forward.
And so maybe that does have to do with that anti-wokeness, worried about political correctness,
and trying to move the country forward, as they see it, has been kind of stagnant under
President Joe Biden.
So folks are waiting to hear from more of these candidates.
And, I mean, we're seeing them turnout too.
Nikki Haley has a crowd of about 1,000 people in South Carolina, which was in Myrtle Beach
earlier this year.
She got about 500 people in Greer.
I have seen Ron DeSantis when he was making his tour through the state earlier before
he declared, and he had about 1,000 people at a church up in Spartanburg on a Wednesday
night.
So the momentum is there.
People are interested to hear what these folks have to say.
No one's really making up their mind yet, which is tough for Tim Scott and Nikki Haley,
since they're the homegrown candidates here.
They want to win their home state.
And, right now, it's up for grabs.
AMNA NAWAZ: Kay, what about you?
Are you hearing that same thing in terms of priority of issues among the voters?
KAY HENDERSON: Well, I think what it boils down to is, voters are making an evaluation
versus style.
And some of them are making an evaluation versus on substance.
And some of them are trying to decide which way they will go, whether they want the candidate
that campaigns in the style that they prefer, or the candidate that's -- has the substance
that they want.
For instance, there appears to be an emerging debate between DeSantis and Trump about the
way the pandemic was handled in Florida versus the way President Trump handled the pandemic
in March of 2020 nationwide.
That's turning into a key issue for some voters in Iowa.
And also, when you talk to voters who aren't on the Trump bandwagon at this point, they
all say they liked the accomplishments of the Trump presidency.
They just didn't like the style of the Trump presidency and what's been happening over
the past couple of years.
And so if they can get over that by -- as a Trump campaign, having these smaller events
like they had today, many of the people I talked to after that event today said it was
low-key.
He felt more relatable to them.
And he was saying the same things that he says at the big rallies, but it was about
style and their connection to him in a smaller setting.
AMNA NAWAZ: So, Kay, you mentioned the 2016 primaries, and, obviously, in that crowded
field that benefited Donald Trump.
He came in second in Iowa to Ted Cruz.
KAY HENDERSON: Right.
AMNA NAWAZ: But he won New Hampshire.
We are still many months to go.
But does it look like the same thing could happen?
Could a crowded field again benefit Donald Trump?
KAY HENDERSON: Absolutely, because, at this point, it appears, if you look at the polling
in Iowa and nationwide, that it's a two-person race, it's a Trump-DeSantis race, with other
people hoping to fill a third lane.
And when you have so many people competing, and when you have Trump really going after
his main competitor right now, that's a dynamic that really would benefit Trump, if you look
at the numbers.
AMNA NAWAZ: Gavin, what's your take on this, especially with two South Carolinians in the
race now and South Carolina the first-in-the-South Republican primary?
Could that be a turning point for Haley and Scott?
GAVIN JACKSON: It's going to be critical come February with this -- the primary, of course.
We're going to see what's going on Iowa, New Hampshire.
We're seeing a lot of effort being put into Iowa from both Tim Scott and Nikki Haley.
We have seen some comfort there, some similarities there with Iowa and South Carolina, that they're
hoping to work on.
But, of course, it comes down to getting their names out there in places like Iowa, New Hampshire.
Nikki Haley has a little bit more name I.D. in those places than Tim Scott does.
But Tim Scott has plenty of money to get his name out there on the airwaves right now with,
I think, a $6 million ad buy from his campaign, and then his super PAC also throwing about
$7 million into some advertising as well.
So it's going to come down to South Carolina in terms of deciding where this race goes
forward next year in 2024.
Still a long way away.
We have to wait to see what these polls do.
We have to wait and see what happens on the debate stage.
So a lot will happen.
But if you don't win your home state, that's going to be a little -- probably a turning
point there for those guys, for sure.
AMNA NAWAZ: Still a very long way to go.
We can't say that enough.
Kay Henderson and Gavin Jackson from our PBS families in Iowa and South Carolina, thank
you for joining us.
GAVIN JACKSON: Thanks.
GEOFF BENNETT: Pakistan's ousted Prime Minister Imran Khan has been caught in a political
storm for the past several weeks.
Earlier this month, he was arrested by paramilitary forces on corruption charges, released only
after the Supreme Court stepped in.
His arrest triggered widespread protests across that country, followed by thousands of arrests
and a massive crackdown on his political party known as PTI.
When Khan was elected in 2018, he had the support of Pakistan's military, but Khan was
removed in a no-confidence vote last year when he started criticizing the army leadership.
He spoke to us early today from his residents in Lahore.
I asked him what the last few weeks have been like, as he's been the target of the country's
government.
IMRAN KHAN, Former Pakistani Prime Minister: Right now, the situation is such that all
my senior leadership is in jail.
Today, one person who was hiding, was the president of my party.
They grabbed him, and they put him in jail, too.
So, 10,000 of my voters are in jail.
I'm pretty isolated here right now.
My security -- remember, the Interior Ministry has said that my life is in danger, extreme
danger.
And yet they picked up my head of security, and he's disappeared for the last three days.
And my bulletproof cars which accompany me, they have impounded two of them.
So, the situation is such I'm isolated, quite insecure, all my senior leadership in jail
or they have told them that, look, anyone who wants to come out, he has to renounce
his membership of my party.
GEOFF BENNETT: You are facing criticism from all sides that your supporters were responsible
for violence after they laid siege to military buildings.
Did they go too far?
Should you have done more?
Could you have done more to stop them?
IMRAN KHAN: What, firstly, I didn't even know what was going on because I was thrown into
jail.
So, four days, I had no idea what was -- I was cut off, no news, no mobile phone, nothing
to know what was happening.
The first I found out was when I was presented to the Supreme Court.
And that's when the judge asked me, and I said, for 27 years I have been in politics,
we have never broken the law.
We have always stayed within the Constitution.
All our protests have been peaceful, which a political party's right -- it's a right
to protest peacefully.
So, what happened on this day, I have asked for an independent inquiry.
The Supreme Court must hold an independent inquiry.
We feel the arson was deliberately done.
It was -- we feel that it was like Hitler in 1933 used the arsenal on the German Parliament
as a means to crack down on the communists.
And he eliminated them.
GEOFF BENNETT: You're saying it wasn't your supporters who were responsible for the arson?
IMRAN KHAN: Well, there -- you know, there are CCTV cameras.
They should have been a proper investigation.
How can you be judge, jury and executioner and then go after the whole party?
So 10,000 of your workers who had nothing to do with arson -- there were only a few
hundred people who possibly were involved.
So, this is an excuse really to go after the body.
GEOFF BENNETT: The army has said that those responsible for the violence will be tried
under military law.
The proceedings are held in military courts on military installations.
The courts are run by military officers.
Do you believe that your supporters can get a fair hearing in that sort of environment?
IMRAN KHAN: This is the end of our democracy.
In fact, it's the end of our justice system.
It means there is no confidence in Pakistan's judiciary.
How will the Supreme Court allow this to happen?
We are now standing on the brink, where the entire democratic structure is being dismantled.
And the final nail in the coffin of the democratic structure will be military courts.
GEOFF BENNETT: Pakistan has been directly ruled by the military for almost half its
modern history.
And most prime ministers, including you, came to power with the support of the military.
How did you end up losing their backing?
IMRAN KHAN: I think you need to ask the ex-army chief, because he gave a statement afterwards
that, yes, he was involved in toppling my government, and because he thought I was a
danger to the country.
And yet I worked with them.
So what made him suddenly in the last six months decided to pull the rug under the feet
of my government?
What made him change horses and bring me as the setup, only he can answer.
GEOFF BENNETT: At this point, do you want to curtail the army's power, or do you wish
the generals would support you, as they did before?
IMRAN KHAN: No, the problem is the hybrid system, where the prime minister is supposed
to have the responsibility as an elected prime minister, but the power is basically lying
with the establishment, military establishment.
This hybrid system has failed.
In my opinion, there needs to be a new equilibrium.
The elected prime minister who has the responsibility must have the authority in any management
system.
So, in order for Pakistan to get out of this economic mess, Pakistanis needs rule of law.
Rule of law will ensure proper governance.
GEOFF BENNETT: Are you confident that the next election will happen by October, as scheduled?
IMRAN KHAN: Absolutely not.
I'm not confident, because what is happening now is that the establishment, along with
the -- this current government, they are trying to crush the party.
They are trying to ensure that PTI, my party, will not win.
And so there are 150 cases slapped on me.
And what they are hoping is that either I will be in jail by then -- and most of my
leadership, they will try and turn, like they're saying -- like some of our senior leaders
who were in jail came out and said that, look, we are no longer part of the party, because
that was the condition they could come out of jail, and all charges be dropped.
So either the party will be so weak that they will not be able to win the elections.
The only way elections will be if PTI cannot come into power.
And that's why, if, by October, this -- it's not the case, they feel that PTI will still
win, I don't think there will be elections.
GEOFF BENNETT: What role should the U.S. take in this situation, if at all?
In the past, you have criticized the U.S. for interfering in your country's affairs.
IMRAN KHAN: Countries have to solve the problem from within.
But all we -- I want the U.S. to say is what the professed values are all over the world,
where they -- where they say, we stand with democracy, rule of law, constitutionalism,
fundamental rights, against custodial torture.
That's all we want them to say.
When they speak about China or Russia or Hong Kong, they talk about all these things.
Well, here's a classic example that the democracy is being rolled back, and all these things
are happening.
So, I think that's what -- where -- where they should be consistent.
GEOFF BENNETT: Do you see a peaceful or negotiated way out of this situation?
IMRAN KHAN: Possible.
I think we have reached an impasse, because, despite doing everything, the party's popularity
has just grown.
I mean, the latest report is a 70 percent rate in Pakistan.
It is unheard of in our history.
So, will they keep on, on this course of trying to crush a popular political party, or will
they sit down and work out on some sort of settlement?
I think, at some point, sense will prevail.
I'm an optimistic, and I think then we would come to some sort of an understanding.
GEOFF BENNETT: Imran Khan is the former prime minister of Pakistan.
Thank you so much for your time.
IMRAN KHAN: My pleasure.
AMNA NAWAZ: Freight trains are getting longer and longer in the U.S., some stretching for
two or three miles.
These longer trains allow for more goods to move more efficiently, which lowers fuel use
and costs for the railroads.
But, as William Brangham explains, these trains, especially when they stall, are also cutting
some communities in half.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The impact of these longer trains on the daily lives of Americans is
the focus of a new investigative report from Investigate TV and ProPublica.
It highlights the journey of children on their way to school in the rural town of Hammond,
Indiana, where parked trains create a literal roadblock for kids, and they're forced to
crawl over and under them to get to school.
Another concern, long trains can halt traffic, stranding ambulances, fire trucks and other
emergency vehicles.
And, for the record, BNSF Railways, which is mentioned in some of this reporting, is
a funder of the "NewsHour."
For a closer look at all of this, we are joined by one of the reporters on this series, Joce
Sterman of Investigate TV.
Welcome to the "NewsHour."
JOCE STERMAN, National Investigative Reporter, Investigate TV: Thanks for having me.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Those images of those children crawling under and over those stalled trains
is just so jarring.
I want to read a bit from your report here.
It says: "An eighth grade girl waited 10 minutes before she made her move, nervously scrutinizing
the gap between two cars.
She'd seen plenty of trains start without warning.
'I don't want to get crushed,' she said."
These stalled trains can literally start at any time.
JOCE STERMAN: Any moment, no notice.
And these children are just waiting.
They wait at the bus stop in the morning to see if they can get through.
They will collect in large populations.
Their parents are sometimes with them.
They will look under the train.
They will listen for noises, any indications that it might be moving.
When they feel like it's no left choice, they're out.
They go.
They give it a try.
And they risk their lives doing it.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It's just striking to me that a train is not required to sound a signal
or make a clear demonstrable sound before it takes off.
JOCE STERMAN: They definitely have some sort of signal.
But, as you mentioned, these trains could be miles-long.
So even if they honk a horn or give some sort of a warning light at the front of the train,
the odds that the kids at the back or at the middle are going to hear that may not happen.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.
JOCE STERMAN: So there is no notice.
And they're in the most dangerous sections of these trains crawling through, crawling
under.
So not having any notice is a really big problem.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Why are these trains stalled and stopped the way they are?
Is this a mechanical breakdown?
What is happening?
JOCE STERMAN: Breakdowns can definitely be a factor when this is an issue.
But that's just one reason.
Another is rail traffic.
It's basically switching practices.
They might need to get one train into one place, another into another, and they needed
different lanes or space to do it.
It could also be a crew time-out issue.
Just like with airplanes and pilots, when they hit a certain number of hours, they have
to shift out.
They have to get rest.
It's very important.
So there are a number of factors that mean they stop.
Now, best practices would say they would stop what they say off-crossing, in an area where
they're not going to impact a community, say, like Hammond or anywhere else in the country
where this happens.
But that's not exactly what happens most of the time, because they want the trains to
be in the fastest, most efficient place to move forward and keep the process going.
So, if that means they stop in the middle of a community and they limit the first responders,
they cut off communities, that's the cost of doing business, I guess.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This issue of blocking first responders, tease that out a little bit more.
What happens in those cases?
JOCE STERMAN: Well, we're talking about critical minutes here.
If you call for an ambulance or you call for police, every second matters here.
If you're having a heart attack, something's wrong with your child, you don't want to wait.
And in many communities, these are life-and-death scenarios.
They cannot get around these trains.
Just in Hammond alone, they have station their fire stations and their ambulance response
compensating for this, knowing that it's a problem.
Not everybody can do it.
The rail lines have been there for decades.
So they can't always do that.
They try to plan routes around that.
Doesn't always work.
We know that there have been deaths as a result of this.
We have seen fires.
We have seen injuries.
It's very real, because, if it takes them miles out of their way to respond, that's
the time they're not getting to you, and that has real-life implications.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I want to play a clip from an interview that you did with a firefighter
in Hammond, Indiana, who was talking about the pushback that they have tried to do when
they have gone to the industry about this.
Let's listen to what he had to say.
MIKE HULL, Hammond Firefighters Local 556: The cities and towns and states have tried
to check challenge the railroads.
Obviously, the railroads have come out well ahead.
And so I don't know if they're giving us the middle finger and saying, we're going to do
it because we have won in court, or if they're just ignoring it.
But we need help.
We need help.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The Association of American railroads, we reached out to them.
They said: Safety is our top priority.
What has the railroad industry told you in regards to your reporting?
JOCE STERMAN: Same thing, safety is their priority.
But, at the moment, they pretty much have all the power here.
This is a regulatory gray issue.
So no one forces them to move.
Nobody can tell them they can move.
No one can really fine them.
This is an issue where it's been fought at court.
It's now potentially going to go to the Supreme Court.
Attorneys general across the country are fighting to get some sort of decision on who's in charge
here, because, right now, no one is.
So they can do what they want.
And safety may be their top priority.
They don't want to see these accidents either.
But the demonstration here is, they're willing to sit in wait in many communities, and they're
not doing anything about it.
So, obviously, safety isn't always the top priority.
The rail union themselves, the people who are the engineers and the conductors have
said today, it was about greed.
It's about money.
It's about them making money.
And that's what they see as the priority.
They're not showing that safety is the first priority, if they're willing to let these
trains sit for days or -- at a time.
It's just a crisis.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I know you have talked to lawmakers here in D.C., including Secretary
Buttigieg at the Department of Transportation.
What is the ideal remedy here that lawmakers would like to see done?
JOCE STERMAN: The remedy is potentially finding repeat operators.
But that seems like a long shot at this point.
The remedy could also be deciding who actually regulates this problem, who can tell them
they can move, because, as I said, it's a gray area.
Nobody really can at this point.
At the moment, the only thing they have is funding.
And there's going to be grants given out by the Department of Transportation, to the tune
of hundreds of millions of dollars, to just try to get rid of these at-grade crossings
altogether.
That's the only thing they have at the moment.
There is safety legislation moving through as a result of the situation in Ohio with
the hazmat situation.
They're going to try to do a few things with that to address blocked crossings, but it's
not anything specific in terms of regulation.
So this isn't going to get solved through regulation at the moment or through legislation
at the moment.
And all they have is money to throw at the problem.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Joce Sterman of Investigate TV, such tremendous reporting.
Thank you very much.
JOCE STERMAN: Thank you.
GEOFF BENNETT: In an era of music streaming and digital downloads, an old format is making
a comeback.
Stephanie Sy has more on how modern music audiences are rewinding and hitting play on
a cassette tape revival.
It's part of our arts and culture series, Canvas.
STEPHANIE SY: Electronic music artist Maral has always had a passion for cassettes.
Growing up in Northern Virginia, her parents' tape collection was a way to connect with
her Iranian heritage.
MARAL, Artist: I would go through their old tape collection of old Iranian music, from
classical to pop.
And that's kind of when I started discovering Iranian music on my own and deciding what
types of Iranian music I liked the most.
STEPHANIE SY: Today, as an independent artist in Los Angeles, she draws inspiration for
her current projects from that same music and even the tapes themselves.
MARAL: The older tapes would have a lot of warping to them and, like, the sounds would
get pitched down or they would warble.
And I was really intrigued by that at a very young age.
So, using that experience, I ended up kind of incorporating that same feeling of hearing
these, like, warped tapes when I was younger in my own music by warping the samples later
on.
STEPHANIE SY: Maral's first project in 2019 was released solely on cassette, and the 200
copies sold out instantly.
While her music may be experimental, cassettes couldn't be more old-school.
They became popular in the '70s and '80s, an alternative to vinyl.
Compact discs had overtaken both formats by the early 1990s.
But the emergence of digitized music and streaming services has eclipsed them all.
Yet cassette tapes are having a moment.
According to Luminate, an entertainment industry data collector, U.S. tape sales increased
by more than 440 percent between 2015 and 2022.
In the past few years, mainstream artists like Harry Styles, Billie Eilish, and Taylor
Swift have all capitalized on the fad.
It's a resurgence similar to that of vinyl records, albeit on a much smaller scale.
There's only a handful of cassette manufacturers left in the U.S. One of them is Nick Keshishian,
who still has the original equipment he used when cassette tapes were in their heyday.
NICK KESHISHIAN, Cassette Manufacturer: I retired in 2018, and, a month later, I keep
getting phone calls from everybody that they want cassettes.
And I know there's nobody around here that makes cassettes.
And I kept all my equipment.
I said, you know what?
Let me just do that.
STEPHANIE SY: He manufactures as many as 15,000 cassettes a month, a far cry from the nearly
60,000 his business produced weekly during peak popularity.
So, worth coming out of retirement for?
NICK KESHISHIAN: Oh, definitely.
Definitely.
I'm not a guy that can sit home and watch TV 24/7.
STEPHANIE SY: Plus, he prefers the sound of music on cassette.
NICK KESHISHIAN: I love more slow, soft music, romantic music, those kinds of things.
And my favorite artist is Lionel Richie.
I have all my recordings on cassettes.
I -- in my car, I have the cassette player.
In my house, I have 10 cassette players.
STEPHANIE SY: But the cassette has never been the best medium to preserve sound.
C.D.s and vinyl both offer a clearer and more consistent listening experience.
Tapes have shorter life spans, and things like heat and recorder malfunctions can cause
parts of the cassettes to degrade faster than other mediums.
But, for some, that's the magic.
MARC MASTERS, Writer: For a lot of people who have collected them for years, some of
the anomalies and imperfections are part of the charm of listening to tapes.
STEPHANIE SY: Writer Marc Masters is working on a book about the history of cassettes and
has a large collection himself.
MARC MASTERS: People want old stuff on cassettes as much as they want new stuff.
They really helped birth total genres.
I mean, hip-hop probably wouldn't exist the way we know it if it weren't for cassette
tapes.
It started as a deejay medium, and the deejays would deejay live parties and people wanted
to hear these parties, so people would bring cassette players and tape them.
It facilitated people being able to make and distribute their own music in ways that had
never really happened before.
STEPHANIE SY: At under $10, they were also more accessible than vinyl records.
MARC MASTERS: The whole point of making tapes was to have a cheaper format that more people
could use and more people could share.
STEPHANIE SY: Another thing that made cassette tapes so popular back in the day was the debut
of the Sony Walkman in 1979.
It made the music format portable, allowing people to create a soundtrack for their everyday
lives.
MARC MASTERS: I pretty much took my Walkman everywhere.
I remember even turning it up loud enough that I could mow the lawn and still hear tapes
through my headphones.
STEPHANIE SY: Going beyond our galaxy, or at least Marvel's galaxy, there is something
grounding about tunes played on an old Walkman.
The cassette released in conjunction with the "Guardians of the Galaxy"'s second film
was the highest selling cassette last year; 17,000 were sold.
Is it just a novelty, or are they making a statement?
MARC MASTERS: I imagine people who buy that might not even actually listen to the tapes.
It's a neat thing to have.
But, at the same time, if there's people who like tapes who are buying tapes from these
artists, that's a great thing.
STEPHANIE SY: For indie artists like Maral, tapes are more than a throwback.
They're blowback to a streaming industry that has left them high and dry.
MARAL: If you're making experimental or underground music, you cannot survive in this ecosystem.
So it's about all of us thinking about how we can support artists more.
STEPHANIE SY: Maral hopes her projects will live on, on tape.
MARAL: Hearing how it disintegrates through time.
STEPHANIE SY: And perhaps reaches through time, the way it did for her.
For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Stephanie Sy.
AMNA NAWAZ: How cool is that?
You remember the first tape you bought?
GEOFF BENNETT: Not anymore, no.
(LAUGHTER)
GEOFF BENNETT: How about you?
AMNA NAWAZ: Everyone is going to be thinking about it now.
GEOFF BENNETT: Right, exactly.
AMNA NAWAZ: Remember, there's much more online, including how a new satellite mission will
offer us a different perspective on hurricanes, and might eventually inform our forecasts.
GEOFF BENNETT: And join us again here tomorrow night for the analysis of Brooks and Capehart.
That's the "NewsHour" for tonight. I'm Geoff Bennett.
AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.
On behalf of the entire "NewsHour" team, thank you for joining us.