I passionately believe that
strategic communication is critical
to success in business and in life.
But we must also
think about strategy and
how we communicate that.
Many of us focus on our day to day
work on just the tasks we need to
complete and executing them well.
Taking time to reflect on strategy
in our organizations and our own
life can help us be successful.
I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach
strategic communication at Stanford
Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart,
The Podcast.
I am very excited to
speak with Jesper Sorensen.
Jesper is a professor of
organizational behavior at the GSB
along with being the senior
associate dean of academic affairs.
Jesper specializes
in dynamics of organizational and
strategic change.
He teaches strategic leadership,
crafting and leading strategy.
And along with fellow Professor
Glenn Carroll, Jesper wrote
Making Great Strategy: Arguing for
Organization Advantage.
Welcome Jesper.
Thanks for being here.
I'm super excited for
our conversation.
>> Thanks for having me Matt,
it's really an honor to be on your
podcast.
>> [LAUGH] Well, thank you.
Let's go ahead and get started.
You've been studying and
teaching strategy for
over 25 years.
Can you share with us how you
define strategy and explain how
it's different from planning?
>> Sure, so, I think the tagline
here the GSB change lives, change
organizations, change the world.
What I always like to tell students
is if you want to change the world,
you have to build great
organizations because large scale
change always happens through
organizations.
And if you're going to build
a great organization,
you have to have the resources to
sustain that organization.
And strategy is really about
explaining how you secure that
organization's economic prosperity.
And if you're a public company,
that means how do you maximize
profits perhaps.
But even if you're a nonprofit,
you have to have a strategy that is
somehow the logic by which you get
enough resources to be able to
survive and
do what it is you want to do.
Now that's different from planning.
Like I think planning is really
about the order of operations.
Like it's the sequence of things
that you're going to do,
once you know why it is that you
have a reason to do something and
what the outcome is going to be.
And so I think strategy
is that sense much more complicated
because in order to get
the resources that you need, you
have to engage with other actors.
So you have to engage with your
customers and your suppliers and so
on and so forth and
you don't have control over them.
Planning is about
the things that you can control.
Strategy is really much more
complicated in that sense.
>> So it sounds like planning is
much more tactical.
Once you have the strategy,
you then invoke the plans to
enact that strategy.
>> Exactly.
>> You should that one of the prime
directives for leaders
is to focus on building a strategy.
What are some of the mistakes or
misconceptions you found over
the years that
leaders have about strategy or
its role in their organization?
>> So I think the biggest
misconception that a lot of
managers in organizations have and
leaders is that strategy is not
their job.
So I think
in a lot of organizations,
we've had this image of strategy
being dictated at the top that
a CEO is going to articulate here's
what the strategy is.
And it's like a football coach
sending the play in from
the sideline and then we're all
just going to go and execute.
>> Right. >> And so
you will meet tons of managers who
will say I don't do strategy,
I'm just about execution.
But of course strategy is really
about how you're going to best
allocate your time and
your resources.
That's ultimately what it's about.
And so if you have any
responsibility in an organization,
you're doing strategy.
>> Mm-hm. >> And so you need to be
able to engage with the strategy.
And I think
one of the things that happens
is that we disempower ourselves if
we think about strategy as that.
The related misconception is then
that people think of strategy as
kind of like a set once a year.
>> Right. >> Or once every
five years kind of thing and
then we're just going to go execute
on that plan.
But if you think that strategy is
set no battle plan survives contact
with the- >> [LAUGH]
>> Enemy >> Right?
>> And so as soon as you start to
do things, things start to change.
And so it's not just about drafting
this beautiful architectural
blueprint and then handing off for
somebody to go build it because you
got to adapt to the changing
landscape.
>> So I'm hearing you say
that strategy is something that
everybody owns within
an organization.
It's not just comes down from on
high and that it has to adapt and
change.
I have been part of several
organizations where when people say
we're going to strategically plan,
everybody's eyes roll.
And they think we're just going to
put another document on the shelf
or it's just going to sit on some
websites somewhere.
And what I'm hearing you say is
that it's living and
you have to evolve it and
everybody's involved in it.
Which leads me to the next question
which is in your book and teaching,
you and Glen Carroll make a very
convincing claim that organizations
should craft strategy arguments.
Can you share what you mean by
a strategy argument?
What are they and
how can they help?
>> What Glenn and I are trying to
do in that book is basically help
people think about strategy not as
just a set of analytical frameworks
which is what we teach
many times in business school.
>> Right. >> So if you think about
the classic way of teaching
strategy in a business school is
porter five forces or
differentiation versus low cost and
those are all really important.
But when you're doing strategy on
a day-to-day basis, you have to
understand how is this working?
So it's an explanation and
that's how I do think it's related
to communication.
>> Right. >> It's an explanation
for how you think you're
going to succeed.
And that's an argument.
And an argument is simply a set of
assumptions that lead to
a conclusion, right?
That force a conclusion.
And so what a strategy argument is
it's a statement about what are the
investments and the activities that
we are going to undertake that's
going to lead us to be able to
create and capture economic value.
And if we could do those
things, right?
If we can understand the connection
between those investments and
those activities and
how we create economic value, and
how we capture economic value.
Then we can start to
have sophisticated conversations
about what is it that's working?
What is it that's not working?
And will give us a model through
which we can see the world.
>> The thing I feel is so
powerful about this notion
of strategy as an argument is one,
it involves how you think about it
because when we craft arguments, we
think about things like who are we
speaking to, what's the context?
And it implies that this is
a conversation that has to be had.
Again, it's not some dictation that
comes down from somebody.
So I find that really powerful and
it also implies in an argument that
there is debate and discussion and
change and evolution and
I think that's really important.
And as you know I teach strategic
communication and while I
talk a lot about the importance of
communicating strategically, I'm
really curious to have you share
your thoughts on how communication
is important in strategy.
>> So I think there's two different
parts of that.
And one just the key author of what
you just said, like I do think and
in the book Glen and I,
we devote an entire chapter to
basically thinking about
how can you argue constructively
as a group in an organization.
Often times what we say when we
teach, if we teach MBA students or
executives, we say You should go
and you should argue more in your
organization's and a lot of people
are then like, well, whoa, wait,
I don't want to do that, because
what they're hearing is fight.
We're not saying you should go
fight more, because a fight is kind
of you're throwing assertions at
each other and you're just waiting
for somebody to give in, so
it's like a street fight.
But there are ways to
structure debates and arguments so
that they are constructed.
And part of that is about having
the ability to listen to somebody
else and hear what it is that
they're trying to say and
hear what their logic is.
I think most people believe things
for a reason,
they have a reason for believing.
You might disagree, both with their
conclusion and with some of their
reasons, but you can't engage
constructively in a debate unless
you hear them on that dimension.
And so really, it's about how do
you structure engagements with each
other to create that space.
I think the other part of
communicating strategically
that's really important is when we
think about delegation.
So, what we know is that if you
want to build a great organization,
you're not going to be able to do
that yourself,
you can't make all the decisions
much as you might want to.
And so we all know that we have to
be able to delegate, we have to
be able to empower people.
And we have lots of books that tell
us delegation is wonderful and
even the word empowerment sounds so
wonderful.
But of course, the truth is most
leaders wake up at three in
the morning, petrified because they
delegated a task to somebody else.
And what are they petrified?
What are they scared about?
They're scared that their
subordinate is going to make
the wrong decision and
at three in the morning,
what is the wrong decision?
It's not the decision I would have
made, so there's this tension like
on the one hand you don't want to
make all the decisions and yet
you want to make all the decisions.
And so or at least you want
somebody who might be closer to
the information to make a better
decision because they have more
information, but
you want them to think about it
the way you think about it.
And then the question is how do you
get people to think about things
the way you think about things?
That's through communication.
So that's about really explaining
why you think we win.
Why you think we are successful
organization?
Why you think these sets of actions
are the things that we need to do
in order to accomplish our goals?
And so that's where I do think
really clear communication is
going to be essential to effective
strategic leadership.
>> The fact that you are invoking
the power of listening and being
willing to engage in conflict, but
productive conflict, so we can get
to a collaborative place with our
strategy is a very different way of
thinking about strategy in general.
And I think that's really powerful
for all of us to think about.
And clearly, being able to
articulate your strategy, packaging
it, and communicating it in a way
that not only motivates people but
also helps make better decisions is
absolutely critical.
>> Right, I mean, there's this
element of strategy that I think
most of our stereotype of what
strategy is, is very top down.
>> Yes. >> And so
then you would think
communication's just broadcasting.
But of course,
we also know that lots of great
strategies are discovered, and
they're discovered because
the leaders were able to listen
to their frontline workers or
their frontline managers tell them
here's something that's even better
than what we're doing now.
And so of course,
strategy is really both,
it's both top down and bottom up.
And so you have to be able to both
being able to articulate what it
is that you want to say and
where you think we should be going,
but then also be able to listen and
hear where you might be wrong.
because I think the other part that
we really emphasize is in
an argument, well,
how do you make an argument?
You make assumptions.
>> Yeah.
>> And assumptions are testable,
they're going to be proven wrong or
they're going to be proven right.
And you have to be open to
the possibility that the assumption
you made yesterday has turned out
to be wrong today.
And that you therefore need
to revise your theory, that doesn't
mean you have to go back and
give up, but
it means that you have to update
your understanding of the world.
We've talked a lot about testing
assumptions and
how to really challenge yourself to
be open to what the reality
is instead of staying fixed
on what you thought it was.
And thank you for
re emphasizing that.
I have to tell you,
when I was doing research for
our conversation, I had a big smile
on my face when I saw that in your
class and in your thinking about
strategic communication and
communicating about strategy,
you talk a lot about how important
storytelling is.
And I'm curious if you can help us
understand what makes a good story
about strategy.
>> So if you think about strategy
as an argument, then I think a
natural criterion suggests itself,
and that criterion is logic.
So a good strategy story,
on the one hand,
it has a clear narrative to it and
you can follow the steps and
so on and so forth.
But it should also be internally
coherent, and
that is the realm of logic.
And philosophers and logicians have
spent centuries thinking about how
do we assess arguments in terms of
whether or not, like
whatever assumptions you're making,
do the assumptions that
you do make lead to the conclusion
that you think it does?
And that is I think incredibly
important in assessing strategy
stories.
And where it's at is particularly
important is when you're doing
strategy for the future, like when
you're trying to say here's where
we want to be in five years.
Here's my narrative.
Well, think about it,
you're telling a story about
something that hasn't happened yet.
And so how do you know whether
that's a good story?
You can say, well, it resonates
with me, it inspires me and those
are important than useful criteria.
But of course,
they could also be foolishness.
So you want to also be able to say
okay I don't know whether all these
assumptions are going to be true
and I can't know until I act.
But at least I want to know
whether, if they are true,
will they lead to the outcome
that I think they will lead to.
And that's why in the book,
glad when I get into
this a somewhat technical set of
choppers on thinking about what is
logical validity and soundness and
so on and so forth, which I think
a lot of people were doing strategy
or where did that come from?
And I stopped thinking about that
in eighth grade, or
something like that.
But I do think that holding
on to those ideas is like, well,
the way we should assess each
other's arguments in the first
instance is by the extent to which
they're internally coherent.
>> Right, and
one of the things I strongly
advocated that whenever you're
creating content stories, etc,
that there is a logical coherence,
things follow, and that their
premises that you could support.
I'm curious to get another
dimension of story that I
wonder your thoughts on which is,
once you have a strategy, you have
to propagate it in an organization.
And sometimes I think the most
effective way to do that is not
putting it on posters or
little note cards people have,
it's the stories that leaders tell.
Do you have experience on that or
thoughts on how once we have
the strategy, how do we actually
communicate it and
use story to actually motivate
people to align to that strategy?
>> I think, first of all,
I totally agree with the premise of
your question, but I do think that
communication of these stories
is really important and I would add
relentless communication.
I think one aspect of that is it's
very easy to approach management of
leadership as a exercise in giving
orders.
And I think that's fine,
I think there is an element to it
that's about getting delegation and
giving orders.
But maybe give people a little bit
of grace in the sense of saying.
Here's why.
Here's what I'm thinking, and
just let people into your mind and
your logic because then they're
going to do a better job.
I just think that's the most
important thing, and so I think
the more you can just be aware of
the need to always be communicating
what your reasoning is and
what your logic is,
the better off you'll be.
>> I absolutely agree, and if
people can internalize your logic,
they can then be able to not only
know what they need to do and
feel confident that
it's the right thing, they can then
communicate it to others.
So it becomes a way of propagating
that information.
>> And they can more productively
disagree with you.
>> That's true.
>> Right, because then they can
say, but wait a second, you thought
that this was going to be true and
it's not, so now boss,
we gotta do something differently.
>> Absolutely, yeah. >> And it's
disrespectful or anything like
that, it's just the world wasn't
the way you thought it was and
I can help you do a better job.
>> Right, and it allows for
that immediate feedback so you can
make those adjustments for sure.
Before we end,
I'd like to ask you the same three
questions I ask everyone.
You okay with that?
>> Yep. >> All right, here we go.
If you were to capture the best
communication advice you've ever
received as a five to seven word
presentation slide title,
what would that be?
>> The five to seven words would be
a classroom is a theater.
So I had the pleasure of working
a number of times actually with
a teaching coach named
Barbara Elaine Brown.
And she was a former actor and
theatre director.
And she really helped me think
about how when you're teaching
a class, which is obviously a very
strong form of communication,
you're putting on a play and
you have to think about it
the same way.
So when you're first starting out,
for example, you kind of tend to
just kind of [SOUND] okay,
let me just start talking.
>> [LAUGH] Yeah.
>> As opposed to taking command
of the room.
A play doesn't start by somebody
just wandering out on stage and
deciding to start.
>> [LAUGH] Well,
a good play doesn't.
>> A good play doesn't.
And a good theater performance has
different characters.
And so thinking about yourself as
an individual and like
the different characters that you'd
like to deploy in the same class
and thinking about engagement with
the audience and how you move and
all those other kinds of things.
It was really powerful for me,
it changed the way I taught and
definitely for the better.
>> I have to say that I'm
pleasantly surprised and
a bit shocked.
I see you as somebody who is,
I mean, you're a fantastic teacher,
and you're very logical and
methodical.
And I love that I now see behind
the curtain literally and
figuratively that you think about
it as a play.
And I think all of us should think
about the theater of our
communication.
Now I don't mean we have to be
actors, but think about the way
the environment set up.
How are you starting,
as you mentioned, how do you end,
how do you build excitement, and
all of those are things that we can
learn from acting.
And thank you, that's fantastic.
Who is a communicator that you
admire, and why?
>> So having listened to your
podcast, I of course knew you're
going to ask this question.
>> [LAUGH] Yes.
>> I'm in general terrible at
answering questions like who's
your favorite ex?
>> I'm sorry.
>> And so I was stopped.
No, no, no, that's fine.
So I texted my kids,
my kids are all grown, and I said,
how should I answer this question?
And one of my sons said,
build Belichick.
>> [LAUGH] >> because I'm a big
New England Patriots fan.
And then my other son said,
the Swedish Chef,
because he's a moppet.
>> [LAUGH] >> And
then my daughter said, Emmett,
who is one of our dogs.
>> [LAUGH] >> And I thought about
because what Emmett the dog does,
he has this amazing ability to get
me up with nonverbal communication
at 5.30 in the morning.
>> [LAUGH] >> It's just his
ability. So I actually thought,
well, what unifies all of those?
because think about Bill Belichick,
most people would not think of him
as a great communicator because he
very intentionally, actually I
think is not communicating.
He doesn't want to say anything.
And so I actually thought, well,
while I was trying to make sense
of that and why would they all say
that as a response to what they
thought I would love to be.
And I think it actually has
something to do with nonverbal
communication.
And so then I thought
about some more.
I actually think I,
one of the musicians that I really
have always enjoyed and loved is
a jazz pianist named Keith Jarrett.
Who has this amazing style of
performance and again,
entirely nonverbal, but
if you think about the way great
musicians use pacing and rhythm and
kind of the ability to create
drama without ever saying anything.
because I think what I find hard
about this question,
it's a great question.
What I find hard about it is, it's
so hard to separate the message
from the communication style.
So that's where I think the music
helps me think about, okay, I don't
really know what the message is but
I know how it moves me in different
kinds of ways.
>> Well, first I am glad that I had
an opportunity to bring your family
together.
>> [LAUGH].
>> I was very curious how you were
going to have a football coach,
a moppet- >> [LAUGH] >> And
a pet lead to something.
But you're right, nonverbal
communication is critical and
you were one of the very few people
to answer this question focused on
nonverbals.
Most people speak about people who
communicate and
speak in a certain way.
Question number three,
what are the first three
ingredients that go into
a successful communication recipe?
>> My first ingredient is not
going to surprise, given what we
have just been talking about.
But I think the first ingredient is
clarify your logic, so be really
clear about what your argument is.
And that saying that clear thinking
is what leads to clear writing or
clear speaking is really key.
And when I'm oftentimes giving
feedback on papers to students or
whatever, it's usually about the
writing is a mess until they get
to the point where they're actually
clear about what they're trying to
say, which is oftentimes hard.
So that's not a criticism, but
it's just like that.
>> Right. >> So that's the process.
And related
to that is writing is rewriting.
You have to keep doing, and what
you're doing is you're revising
your argument as you go along.
Second ingredient I think is
imagine what the audience might
hear, not just what you say.
I think we focus very much on
getting the words right but
not enough on what the audience's
perspective is going to be and
how they're going to interpret
the words.
And I think one of the ways that I
got better as a case class teacher
was to be able
to anticipate better how students
were going to interpret a question.
All the different ways they could
interpret it, and
that I think is really key.
And then I think the last
ingredient I would say is be all
parts of yourself.
Which goes back to the this idea of
the classroom as a theater and
that you actually have within you
many different characters that you
deploy at different times.
The stern person and
the joking person, and that you
shouldn't be afraid of using all of
them at the appropriate moments in
any given communication task.
>> I really like that notion of
bringing your whole self and
giving yourself permission to be
who you are when you communicate.
That's very powerful.
I feel a lot
of us put on this comunication
person instead of who we are.
And that notion of really thinking
about the impact of your words on
your audience and planning for
some of that in advance,
I think speaks very nicely to your
strategic thinking.
And clearly, logic is critical.
We've all heard people who
just ramble and we wonder why and
what makes sense.
Well, Yasper, thank you so much for
joining us.
You made quite a convincing
strategic argument for
the value of strategy.
And further,
you helped us understand what
makes for good strategy and good
communication as well, thank you.
>> Thank you for having me.
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