The Religion and Fiqh! How are these different from each other?
[Hassan Ilyas] We get to read a line from your book, Meezan,
in which you have laid great stress
and insistence on the explanation of this point,
that your point of view which you have stated in your book, Meezan,
keeping it separate from philosophy, history, philosophical theology and Fiqh,
you have presented it purely on the basis of the Qur'an and Sunnah.
After reading this line, it creates an impression that
the knowledge of Fiqh is the knowledge of that rank
which has intermingled with religious knowledge,
it has distorted the identity of religion,
and when you have separated Fiqh, then you are explaining your comprehension
purely on the basis of Qur'an and Sunnah.
I want to know that this knowledge of Fiqh among us, how did it come into existence?
What were the aims or the foundations of this knowledge?
And how do you regard the achievement
it gained in the tradition of the scholarship?
i.e. This knowledge of Fiqh, is this knowledge in its entirety,
a useless knowledge according to your point of view?
Or has it some position?
Or does it have any contribution in our scholarly tradition?
How do you regard that?
[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] Many people get a negative impression from this line.
This is not its intention at all!
The religion of Allah has been presented by the Prophets.
To understand that religion, make it understandable,
for its applications, many sciences come into existence.
There are good as well as things worthy of criticism in them.
The real question is that when the religion is presented,
then how should it be presented before people?
I have already mentioned many times before
that we invite a person to the religion
or present the invitation to the religion in a particular period,
people holding different points of view express their objections against it.
Many arguments are given as a response to these.
That argument is meant to refute as well
It is also derived from the fundamental states of nature.
It is based on the postulates of knowledge and reason also.
All of that is not claimed as being unjustified.
But that is my argument. It is your argument.
It is argument of Zaid. it is argument of Bakr.
What argument has Qur'an Majeed presented in its way,
positively, only that argument can be attributed to Allah.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] In the same way, Sufi beliefs which have been mixed with the religion,
and presented before us in the form of Tassawuf (Sufism),
these also have great virtues within them.
These have many qualities also.
These can offer some service to humanity in their own way.
But which is that argument in the religion of Allah,
that has been given, keeping that aim at the centre.
Whenever the religion will be explained,
only that argument will come under discussion.
[Hassan] OK!
[Ghamidi] So, the meaning of this line is that
when you will explain the religion of Allah,
then, it will be purely on the basis of the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Only that argument which has been presented in the Qur'an and Sunnah,
only that facts which have been stated in these,
only that beliefs, only that ethics,
and only that law!
[Hassan] Right!
[Ghamidi] The law, what you call, Shariah!
Whether it is related to worship, or related to politics,
or related to economics, or related to some other field of life,
only that will be presented!
So, the issue is that this attempt has been made in this book,
that human comprehension, anyway it will be present everywhere,
but the intermingling of the related matters has been avoided.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] So, that philosophy, Tasawwuf, theology, obviously, among us, generally,
the method in which these have been intermingled with religion has prevailed.
So, keeping that separate,
religion should be presented purely on the basis of Qur'an and Sunnah.
Now the point that remains is, what is the importance of all these sciences?
What are the wrong things in it? What are the right ones?
What is acceptable? What is unacceptable?
That is the subject of detailed analysis.
The question asked right now, since it is about Fiqh,
look, there are two parts of Fiqh also.
i.e. the one part is in which the jurists explain comprehension of the religion.
That's to say, how they understood the religion.
It is exactly the same thing which the author of this book has done,
that how he understood the religion.
So, due to this reason,
whatever is the comprehension of the religion, it will be explained.
When every person will explain, he will explain his understanding only.
How he understood the Qur'an? How he understood the Sunnah?
If he has accepted any tradition in relation to Rasool Allah (pbuh),
then how has he understood it?
So, this is quite the same thing.
But a very big part of Fiqh is,
in which practical interpretations have been given.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] That's to say the religion we have been given,
some rules are of the type of principles,
some are of the type of public law,
some rules are in the form of particular commandments.
So, the religion that has been given, it has to be related to the human beings.
When it is related to the human beings,
then countless matters come under discussion,
which are of an individual's life also, of the society also,
and at times, of the state and of the relations among the states as well.
Fiqh encompasses all these matters.
It is actually the law which has been enacted in the light of Islamic teachings.
One law is that which is the part of Allah's religion,
which we call Shariah,
and the other law is that which is made,
when commandments of that Shariah are related to the society, to people.
It will be made in every era.
So, this very big part, obviously, it is purely human effort.
Issues of Ijtihad populate this field.
It is necessary to keep these separate.
It is not intended to negate these.
There will be such rules in it which are very valuable,
and there will be such rules also, which will be criticised.
But all these affairs should be kept aside while explaining the religion.
[Hassan] OK!
[Ghamidi] So, the word 'separately' has been mentioned there.
i.e. this is the religion, it has been separated from these matters.
Why was it written so?
Because there is another way prevalent among us.
We generally mix them at one place to give an explanation.
In my view, due to this, such an intermingling
happens between the real religion and the human sciences
that leads to major flaws.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] So, 'separately',
some people, with an intention of making a propaganda,
have written 'keeping it pure' in place of the word 'separately',
implying that it is some garbage.
No! it does not mean this. It is an infusion!
So, you infuse a good thing or a bad thing,
the current situation is that the religion is totally separate, totally defined,
It has to be presented in the way as shown in the Qur'an and Sunnah.
There is also a chance of error of the human comprehension in it.
But only this attempt should be made.
So, this is the meaning of it!
It neither intends to refute something
nor intends to declare something as wrong.
Whether it is philosophy or theology or Fiqh,
these will be considered on the basis of their merit,
Such things which are good for the humanity
and acccording to the Qur'an and Sunnah,
these will be accepted, and which are not, will not be accepted.
So, the principles are different there.
If you write any book on it, then there obviously,
the purification of those sciences will be under view.
Here, purification of the religion is under view,
it should be presented separately from every such infusion.
[Hassan] Okay Ghamidi Sahib! You explained your opinion in detail.
One doubt that arises in the minds of the people
that they generally express on this speech of yours,
is that when you are saying, you have explained in that book,
the religion based on the Qur'an and Sunnah.
But you have also explained it according to your comprehension,
translation of any verse of the Qur'an, construction of sentence,
as you have understood it.
You have clarified that the jurists will be also doing the same work.
I want to know about these two directions of Fiqh, as you said,
one task of explaining the argument
of Qur'an and Sunnah as per their understanding.
You are also doing the same work.
You have no objection against it.
Some of the definite examples of this work
and their Ijtihadi interpretations, of that task,
keep these separately, e.g. I remember this thing that,
you have accepted this opinion in your book that
if you have to take a decision regarding carrying out an abortion,
then there is duration of 120 days.
The Qur'an gave the stages, Rasool Allah (pbuh) showed the practice,
jurists have also said so. You have also accepted it.
So, this is that scope based on the understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah,
against which you have no objection, do you accept this?
[Ghamidi] No! This is in my book, Maqamat.
I have not explained it in Meezan.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] You see, my own Fiqhi opinions,
I have not mentioned even these in my book also.
These have been explained in my book, Maqamat,
or if there are any such statements of detailed nature,
then these have been mentioned in Burhan.
In Maqamat, I have given my opinion on, more or less, all the topics,
on insurance, on interest, similarly, on the transplant of organs,
this matter which you talked about, I have given my opinion on it, on abortion,
and there are tens of other matters!
I have given my opinions but I have not stated these in my book, Meezan
because Meezan is purely the explanation of that religion
which was found through Muhammmad Rasool Allah (pbuh).
These are practical issues, and practical issues are explained in this way only.
So, the aim is that if jurists have also explained the comprehension of religion
and if I could suggest them something,
then I would have told them to explain it in two separate parts.
They should keep Shariah separate from their Fiqh, and these practical issues,
now these are practical issues, I gave many examples of these,
whether abortion could be done or not, the Qur'an is not addressing this topic,
or Shariah is not addressing this topic directly.
It is not like that any statement has been given about the abortion.
Same is the case with insurance, it is a new topic.
Same is the case related to interest,
new forms of interest which are available in the current times.
So, there are many issues.
Transplant of the organs was unimaginable in the past.
This issue has come under discussion in the current times.
If you take out my book, Maqamat, there are mostly Fiqhi opinions only.
So, you will see this as a clear difference between that and Meezan.
So, I insist there also, that explain opinions related to Fiqh separately
and explain the actual religion separately.
[Hassan] OK Ghamidi Sahib, give me any example,
the work which is being done by jurists,
you said that there are two aspects of their work,
one is that they explain their comprehension
in the case of the Qur'an and Sunnah.
No issue, we will analyse that understanding as per the Qur'an.
[Ghamidi] No! I insist that they should also explain it separately.
[Hassan] But you're also explaining your own comprehension in your book!
[Ghamidi] Yes! But that should be also explained separately
from those opinions that I have explained in Maqamat.
The point I am mentioning is that
they have two aspects there (in Fiqh) which they are explaining.
So, here these have been separated!
In Meezan, I have explained the religion
which was given by Muhammad Rasool Allah (pbuh),
and in Maqamat, I have given my opinions about
practical issues, interpreted issues, Fiqhi issues.
So what happened was that the issues got handled in two separate ways.
There was no chance of these getting intermingled.
You should keep the religion totally separate.
So, the jurists must also do the same.
That's to say, I insist the same (approach) there also.
But this part of their work, is anyway,
the same in which they are clarifying the religion.
[Hassan] So, I wanted that you tell a common man
that the interpretations made by jurists
and which is generally understood as they are explaining the same religion,
any definite example of it, which is an example of common sense
that we think it is perhaps, a part of Shariah law,
but in reality it was an interpretation of jurists,
it was done keeping public law
or legal structure of the society under consideration.
[Ghamidi] Look at these, I have just now explained examples before you,
on which I have myself spoke.
All the jurists are also doing the same.
i.e. all the jurists of the current times are also doing it.
The jurists of the past times were also doing it.
How will be matters of lands be addressed,
issues of 'Sair', which are called international laws.
There are countless issues which have been explained in it.
People face practical issues.
matters if finance, those related to the market transactions,
these issues keep coming up all across the world.
So these are Fiqhi issues, practical issues.
A person turns up saying, "I was standing at some place",
Allah (swt) has shown us the way of offering Salah, His Prophet too,
"I committed this mistake when I went for Hajj",
So, Fiqhi opinions are given there.
Rasool Allah (pbuh) has also done this work.
Due to this reason, in the Prophethood,
the interpretations of these nature made by the Prophet (pbuh),
I have mentioned these also in my book, Meezan.
As I have copied it from the Prophet (pbuh)
but I have placed these in a different category.
First, I have explained the religion based on the Qur'an and Sunnah,
after that, the explanation given by Rasool Allah (pbuh),
gave clarification of some issue or showed something practically,
or about His Uswa-e Hussna (best exemplary character),
I have written the same because it is the personality of the Prophet.
But I have mentioned it separately.
Look at these. These are those traditions.
So, a jurist or a scholar also, is doing the same work,
and it is done on daily basis in every aspect of life.
Whatever Fatawa are given, these are given in the same way.
You saw that a question was raised currently,
on which a Fatwa came out that such type of game cannot be played.
The case there is, what happens there is,
because Shirk in some entertainment is absolutely prohibited.
No doubt Shirk must not be committed.
Shirk is the biggest sin!
In some issue, whether it is applicable or not?
A person asks a jurist if he could participate in a Christmas event.
So, he is asking a practical and a Fiqhi question.
So, these issues must always be kept separately.
[Hassan] Right, right!
[Ghamidi] It is my practice.
This is the practice of Zaid, or Bakr.
i.e. Keeping some religious principle at the centre, you apply it on an issue.
People ask tens of questions.
Well, now women ask me that they have applied nail paint,
tell us if ablution can be done or not?
Rasool Allah (pbuh) never addressed it as a topic.
So, a Fiqhi opinion will be given here.
This act of giving an opinion, a Fiqhi opinion,
it is not like that it is not any service towards the religion,
or it must not be done.
It has to be done! Every person has to do it!
But it must be kept separate!
[Hassan] Okay Ghamidi Sahib, we understand what you are saying,
i.e. if this work is not done, which you did and you said
that you have separated it.
So, generally it is said that this act, according to Islamic law, e.g.
to share both profit and loss in Mazaribat (Partnership of Capital and Labor)
it is said that it has been made obligatory in Islamic law.
So, this is that aspect which was obligatory
in law of Fiqh, but was made Islamic!
[Ghamidi] Look, the fact is that if anyone says its Islamic, let him do that.
But Islam has not said anything about it.
Neither has it discussed about Mazaribat nor about partnership.
It is explaining just some basic principles.
Applying these, you discuss about the means of the business.
You say that, since Allah (swt) has commanded
not to grab someone's property through invalid means,
since it has been commanded that every matter must be dealt with justice,
so, now keeping principles of the justice at the centre,
it is not valid to harm someone,
it is not valid to deceive someone.
So, we will analyse every business with respect to this principle.
When we will analyse, then we will give opinion about it also.
So, a jurist will tell you what things are valid in Mazaribat,
what things are valid in partnership.
He will tell you.
But here, he is saying many such things
which are not directly explained in Shariah.
In fact, he is applying the principles of Shariah.
So, that is why, these matters should be explained separate from the religion.
[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] The religion has given a commandment on the interest.
If Allah (swt) had not said this, you would have used reasoning.
Allah (swt) has commanded, so it has become a part of Shariah.
The Prophet of Allah has applied some rule,
it has become a part of the religion.
When we human beings are doing this task,
whether it is in application or with respect to specific matters,
i.e. explaining a corollary of an issue,
so, it is our comprehension, understanding and our inference, deduction.
It should be kept separate.
I am stressing on the word 'separate',
I am not talking about right or wrong!
[Hassan] Absolutely!
[Ghamidi] Keep it in a separate category!