This is Sam Goldwyn-in Hollywood. This is Vivien Leigh in London.
This is Ken Tynan in New York. This is "Small World" and this is Ed Murrow
in New York. Good evening! Tonight on "Small World", the world of motion pictures. From
London, one of the greatest actresses of our time, Vivien Leigh Olivier. Miss Leigh won
an Oscar in 1938 for her Scarlett O'Hara, another one in 1951 for "A Streetcar Named
Desire." And all kinds of awards for her stage portrayal of Cleopatra. Miss Leigh is talking
to us from her apartment in London. Good evening, grandma!
Good evening-and thank you! And from Hollywood, a man who had to get up
at 5 o'clock in the morning in order to be with Miss Leigh, Mr. Samuel Goldwyn. A pioneer
and a giant, who gave us "Dodsworth", "Wuthering Heights," "Best Years of Our Lives" but whose
greatest picture is always the next one. Which in this case is "Porgy and Bess."
And from New York, a young Englishman who, if not angry, is at least opinionated. Kenneth
Tynan. Drama critic of the London Observer, now on loan to the New Yorker magazine for
a one-year hit. Mr. Tynan, I think I should warn you that
Mr. Goldwyn is not always enthusiastic about the critiques that appear in The New Yorker.
I-I have great respect for The New Yorker. I think it's one of the fine magazines that's
come out in my time. But I do not quite agree with the criticism that the New Yorkers are
writing. As a matter of fact, I heard about your review yesterday in The New Yorker of
Rodgers and Hammerstein's show. A Japanese girl playing a Chinese girl. You took exception
to that. Well, the only-since we're talking about Miss Leigh-I always like to talk about
her anyway. She played a southern belle in two pictures she was in! And that was-uh-what
was the name of the first play that she gave that great performance? And she won a-a it
was a picture Selznick did with her. "Gone With the Wind."
Something like "Gone with the-Gone With the... something!"
"Gone With the Wind!" and she won an Oscar. She distinguished herself again when she played-which
she did a wonderful job in "Streetcar Called Desire." Also a southern belle! I always refer
to her as a belle anyway. And tell me, how do you account for your criticism of Japanese
girls playing Chinese girls-or Chinese girls playing Japanese girls? What has that got
to do with it? Well, I think if you're going to present the
Chinese people authentically-as they ought to be presented on a stage-you've got to pay
some kind of resect to their, their origins and their culture, their appearance and get
a kind of authenticity that I felt didn't exist in that show because there are differences
of background and temperament between Chinese and
But Ken! and Japanese which are tremendously marked.
Ken, you might as well say, that no English actor should play in a Chekov play or an Ibsen
play. If the entire cast is English or German, ok.
But what does it matter? If they're artists? Hmm?
But does it matter very much if they- if they know what they're doing?
Atmosphere is completely destroyed by this sort of lack of homogen-homogenity.
By the way, you know I was the only English member of the cast of "Streetcar" and, so,
and that didn't seem to make very much difference.. Well, it did to me, honestly dear, because
of that. I mean, an entirely English cast, splendid. But you did-at least to an untrained
ear-such as mine, stick out a little bit as being not quite in the same style as the other
people in the film. Well, I'll have to try again-get better, that's
all! Mr. Tynan.
Mm-hmm? Whom I have great respect for. How is it that
about three hundred million people all over the world saw "Gone With the Wind" -
Wonderful film! and she received Oscars all around the place
Wonderful film, Mr. Goldwyn! How is it that they liked her in the role?
Oh, I don't think I was intending that, Mr. Goldwyn, I was saying-
How's that? In a film of that kind, I think she was marvelous-and
I thought Vivien was absolutely perfect in that because, as I said, it's sort of set
in the past and in a costume picture-um-I think that kind of thing is absolutely ok.
I think truth is the keynote of all acting or of all artists. And I don't really understand
what Ken's saying because I don't think you would call it a stylized film in any way.
It's not like an 18th Century comedy, for instance. It was a perfectly human story and
as modern as they come, really. The fact that you wear a costume doesn't make any difference
to your mind. And if your mind is truthfully playing the character you're supposed to be
playing, the costumes and whether you have a fan in your hand or anything-it doesn't
make any difference at all. Isn't there something, though, in those two
parts, Vivien, the "Streetcar" part and the Scarlett O'Hara one--Didn't they both have
this strange quality of vulnerableness? You know, girls who were easily breakable, who
were, who were, uhm, suffering terribly? I think
And-hmm? Sorry Ken, they were entirely different people.
But, I- It seemed to me.
But didn't they have that in common? These were girls that were going to be, you know,
knocked around by, by all kinds of agonies and um...
Oh, knocked around is one thing! I think they were both knocked around quite a bit- but
one overcame the knocking around and the other one succumbed.
Yes. And therefore they were innately different.
It seemed to me. But then the only interesting thing, I think, is to play as many different
things as possible. I think type-casting and type-acting is one of the menaces, really.
Because you get used to what somebody's going to do and then it holds no surprise for you.
If you're not going to be surprised in life, um, it's a pity-I think.
Why do you think you get cast so often as, um, southern belles, Vivien?
I can't imagine! I must have lived there in some incarnation or other-or something, you
know. I really don't know. Only twice, you know. Only twice in-oh how many years? Twenty?
So that's not many. Miss Leigh mentioned type-casting, which of
course is a product of the star system. And I suppose one reason that she has not been
typed, is the fact that she is a genuine actress-as well as a star.
Isn't the definition of a star, though, Vivien, a girl who can stare into a camera and convince
every man out there that she needs him? And cannot exist without him.
Well, now, I don't think that applies entirely. She may think she wants to say that to everybody-
men, women and children. I don't think men are all that important!
But I mean isn't there a special kind of hungering, yearning, needing expression which Garbo had,
which Marlene Dietrich has and I also think you have it. This sort of look of unutterable
need and everybody in the audience feels "My goodness, she needs me!"
My goodness, Ken! I think that a certain waif-like, if you like-not, I don't mean waif-like but
I'd-I think people shouldn't appear too sure of themselves because they probably aren't-as
a rule. Is that what you mean? Yes, but I mean is there anything else which
differentiates star quality from ordinary competence?
I haven't the faintest idea. I only know that a star to me is somebody who makes me feel
that I don't understand quite what they're doing, but I feel there's a sort of magic
about it. I don't know what it is. Garbo certainly had it. And to me, Brigitte Bardot has it.
Now Sam, Ken Tynan started a considerable controversy in Europe, when he said that the
drama as an art form had to be concerned with politics. How do you feel about that?
How do I feel about it? Yes.
I think the duty of a producer is to produce plays or pictures that the public will enjoy
when they go into the theatre. I think politics is a documentary problem. I do believe this:
that when you leave the theatre you have to carry away something with you. That is close
to people's hearts. That touches on their daily life. And they understand the characters.
But I do not agree with Mr. Taynan at all that politics-Every time anyone has tried
to do that in a picture or play, they usually came out so that they couldn't pay their payrolls
every week. Can I comment on that, Ed?
Please do. When I say that art ought to be in some way
a political activity, what I mean is that it can't help it. Every act that anybody performs
has some kind of a political repercussion.