hi everyone I'm in Australia in New
Zealand
off to New Zealand in the next couple of
days and I thought I'd bring you up to
date with a story that's been breaking
there that's of some substantial
interest and a certain degree of his
absurdity a group they're known as
Auckland Peace Action released a press
release on Monday 11th of February 2019
stating quote Jordan Peterson threatens
everything of value in our society
which I had to admit was rather
impressive because that's not an easy
thing to manage anyways I'll read you a
little bit of it what happened after the
release was that a journalist Shawn
Plunkett interviewed the author or the
spokesperson of this particular press
release and then we had a chance to talk
the next day and so what you're going to
see in this video is me reading the
press release then you're going to see
Shawn interviewing iris Crowe Zolciak
hope I've got that reasonably right of
Auckland Peace Action and then you're
going to see the full interview that I
had with Shawn the next day so here goes
Jordan Peterson threatens everything of
value in our society in the lead up to
Jordan Peterson's visit to New Zealand
we have a duty to condemn his sexist
queer phobic racist and deeply
reactionary views says iris Cruz o ciock
of Auckland Peace Action
Jordan Peterson professor of psychology
at the University of Toronto turned
right-wing media celebrity is in New
Zealand to promote his book twelve rules
for life this book while offering
superficially useful life advice to an
audience of disaffected white men
promotes a reactionary misogynistic view
of the world
utterly in opposition to New Zealand
values well we as a country have many
problems we can be justly proud of our
values of gender equality egalitarianism
and social inclusivity as ms Krizia sac
Jordan Peterson is actively trying to
undermine these values this is
distinctly unhelpful
I won't redo the rest of it you can find
it at scoop politics if you're
interested and now we'll turn to Sean's
interview with Iris and his analysis of
her claims
iris your group has come out with a
press release yesterday that got some
coverage saying Jordan Peterson
threatens everything of value in our
society why why does stealing kids to
clean their room up represent the end of
civilization as we know what I would say
is such as what telling kids to clean
their room is probably not a bad thing
the issue comes at that of you know are
pretty far from all that Jordan because
no one's doing not really that's what
his books about that's what he's
promoting honors to her no I would say
not if you can like I mean if you take a
look at some of what's actually said in
the book and many of the media comments
he has made elsewhere it seems quite
clear but he has some seriously
problematic of years name one okay so
let's see let's begin what's the kind of
service interview with Camille Talia
we're in he effectively has said that
the adverse well you know he believes
that discussions with me and he knows
how to you know if he knows where he
stands morally because kind of a guest
of honor or something is backed by the
street it's difficult for his argument
is that men can put men are better at
putting barriers around social
interaction between each other because
there's the implicit and underlying
reality that if things get out of
control we mean have a conversation
there is the possibility of physical
violence and he says that subconscious
check on how far or how if you like
[ __ ] a conversation can get these
tempered by that knowledge I don't see
does does that very suggestion or idea
which I know a lot of people agree with
does that threaten Western civilization
and the very foundations in everything
of value in our society well I'm not
going to speak about with I weren't
speaking of Western civilization and you
know we've it whether that concept even
make sense but if you can sort of
something like say I mean consider
basically how that's going how that kind
of statement is going to be read no I
think it's going to be read by I mean
saying yeah we need to think about deny
the differences the biological and I
guess behavioral differences between
sexes and we need to talk about these
things honestly and openly if we're
going to make progress on some of the
issues of gender in our society all
right but on the cultural mule area
where frankly homosexuals are still
getting beaten up we have ridiculous
rates of domestic partner violence yeah
frankly in philosophy I just just won a
chick Jordan Peterson
to your knowledge e of a baton is why
for beating up a homosexual nor has he
ever advocated people beat their wives
or beat homosexual I don't believe we
have no are there be annoying right can
I please correctly continue yeah sort
the factual matters of Jordan Pearson
has allowed platform there are many
people paying attention to them and if
you're making statements in such a
situation it is vitally important that
you kind of that the statements you make
cannot be mr. Reid in a such a way as to
promote which is he sadly responsible
for the miss reading of his statements
is he
I would say that look everyone's made
you feel everyone has made kind of see
if you do it once yes if you do it
repeatedly as what repeatedly no talk
about things you're interested in an
open and intellectual way that's all he
does or do you think he may be Aras do
you think he should be shut down do you
think his ideas are too dangerous and he
shouldn't be allowed to speak in New
Zealand I don't believe he should be
shut down here's why we're not doing
that the issue however is that his ideas
are is that his ideas are rather more
problematic which ideas which ones
specifically that you should clean your
room that you should hold your shoulders
bare that you should take responsibility
for your own life that people shouldn't
be compelled by governments to use with
particular words and particular
circumstances okay but what about
particular words in particular
circumstances yes I agree to be
ridiculous that makes the government to
force you know effectively took use
government used a phrase and governments
were forced to do that yeah but waiver
statements are being read in the media
including by some people yeah well he
can't be responsible for the stupidity
of people reading his statements Kenny
again as I'm saying sir do you think
that people are not responsible for do
you think that do feel that people are
never responsible for the effects of the
things they say well yeah I know not
particularly but I'd also say that it
would seem to me from my observation of
the impact that Jordan Pederson has had
on people's lives that has been
overwhelmingly positive for a huge
number of people which is why so
incredibly popular you know I would
point out that you can say the same
thing about a lot of specialist
movements they have a very positive
effect on the lives of many young are
you saying that he's a fascist no I'm
not thankful my good I am saying that he
is if I'm saying that he's exploiting a
lot of the same kind of basic exploiting
anything he doesn't compel anyone to go
to his talks to look at his stuff on
YouTube how's that exploiting anyone I'm
not saying I mean exploiting in terms of
he is using the same check like he is
using the same basic psychological
mechanisms to build
bass well what bass he's just saying
what he thinks and people happen to be
interested are you suggesting he's
running some campaign to destroy the
Western world hardly I just I just think
that he is a very responsible man who is
make let's talk about let's talk about
responsibility shall we in your group
Oakland Peace Action you would like
people not to go and see certain films
and you're happy to physically and to
save to stop them seeing certain films
and in fact your wellington branch
bought fake bombs to create terror at 20
18 at a film festival and stop people
watching a film about being Gurion right
is that right iris factually correct for
you're putting a very negative in a lot
of the world it's just faked I was just
saying some fakes mate I mean that's the
thing though so so what do you think is
a greater threat to our society
threatening to plant fake bombs in a
movie theater and telling people they
can't go and see a movie because your
group doesn't like it do you think
that's a greater threat to our society
than Jordan Peterson bookie out of hall
and say pay some money and come and see
me if you want I mean I was like Jordan
Pearson's certainly a greater threat to
marginalized groups in society I can
tell you that I've got like I can tell
you that what do you think about trans
people about queer people about woman
I've never seen him say anything
negative about woman trans people or
queer people I've never seen a being I'm
a phobic transphobic or misogynistic and
I believe me I've watched a lot of what
Jordan Pederson says and does I've never
once anywhere seen him being
misogynistic homophobic or transphobic
can you point me to an example where he
has been
iris what do you mean by an exact what
in this case do you mean by an example
well we're at an example where he in any
way is misogynistic homophobic or
transphobic so you do not feel that kind
of thing you do not feel that
effectively saying before man are you do
so just to be clear you don't feel the
things that woman wear but a woman wear
lipstick to work in order to appear
sexually provocative it's not he's not
saying that and he's never said that
what he said iris what he said iris is
if we need to if we accept we've got to
have some rules that he understands the
biology of men and woman and he says men
need to respect woman's boundaries and
he is always very very clear about that
but he says if we're going to have a
desexualized workplace if we're going to
have a set of rules let's be very clear
about what those rules are he would
argue that makeup right that makeup is
designed as a sexual display and it's
pure in you know in an academic sense
people put on on makeup or have
traditionally put on makeup as a sexual
display and he said okay if we're gonna
have workplaces where sex and any sort
of sort of interaction of that nature
between the jinn the the genders is off
the agenda maybe we need to think about
makeup in the workplace he is not
accusing woman he's not slut-shaming and
he's not sitting there saying woman
bring it on themselves he's just saying
we need to be realistic about what the
rules and boundaries are okay so a
question for you if you will your firm
so Jordan Peterson is apparently so
Jordan Peterson say things which clearly
are you know what you clearly feel are
you know are not problematic well know
millions of people think is not
problematic and millions of people think
seem to think he's saying stuff that no
one said the balls disabled for a while
and and they're on board with them well
thanks stuff no one said of both to say
it's a really crisp essay but what
frankly isn't it that's what I'd say
your movement prides itself on doing
yes but we aren't saying it simply - you
know because no one else have balls to
say it we say it's because we generally
genuinely believe in our political
position and I'm sure that Jordan
Peterson genuinely believes in hers and
actually to be honest they seem more
stripped mainstream and less of a threat
to society then buying fake bombs to
scare people out of going to see a movie
in New Zealand so just don't curse that
how do you feel about what like what
kind of six do you think first say I
don't know bombing civilians heaven
society because that is what we're
fundamentally about opposing okay does
does are you saying Jordan Peters and
bomb civilians no I'm not what I'm
saying then why when we're talking about
your press release about Jordan Peters
and would you bring that up well why do
you keep on bringing up about oh you
know because it's your group that put
out the press release and it's your
group that bought fake bombs and see if
the people shouldn't go and see a movie
you didn't like in a free country
oh dear Lord
well let me put it first let me put it
this way if he was like if you're going
to look if your judgments perfect okay
not afraid to us iris I might just be
suggesting that your press release is a
little bit over the top
are you prepared to admit that on the
back of this interview no simply because
I'm simply because I am living kind of
on a fairly daily on a fairly regular
basis what's the effects of a Jordan
peaceful talk by having Gompers you know
fanbase we are getting repeated
consistent harassment from revered from
frankly Jordan from Jordan Pederson how
do you know that Jordan Peterson fans
because they say so Jordan Peters is and
inciting people to hate on you yes
fighting people to give me an example
give me an example
okay so if the processor
okay so in the wake of the press release
we're frankly we are even currently an
awful lot welcome look we got an email
from I mean from frankly what appears to
be a white nationalist yeah just think
that we take a look at the suggesting
that if we take a look at a whole bunch
of well frankly nasty videos yeah are
they Jordan Peterson Nazi videos no no
they ok so what's he got to do with that
email from the Nazi well effective
matter his fan base I have a same fan
base for the same thing V no they're not
I'm part of his fan base I'm not a Nazi
I don't I'm not doing but you are
suggesting anyone who is it does like
what he sees as a Nazi it seems well you
are you think what I am suggesting is
that he has created but at a certain
subset of the fans which may not be the
same subset of Europe and I'm pretty
sure they aren't yes yeah okay yeah it's
behaving in a behaving and frankly quite
disgraceful when it is the subset of his
fans that represent the threat to
everything of value in our society not
Jordan Pederson right right but you can
so why don't you say that when your
press release in see the there was
Jordan Pederson he represented the
threat to everything of value in our
society because Jordan Peterson was
calling for a sense to coalesce he is
encouraging
well he's not he's just saying what do
you thank God alright so just out of
curiosity all right but where do you
draw the line as to what it like where
do you draw the line that's the
responsibility for what your seeds are
yeah I mean surely you can't say look
you can't see but he'll absolutely no
responsibility for the behavior of
people who effectively you know the
behavior of who of people who listen to
it are justly and take well I'd be more
I'd be more worried about the
consequences of buying a fake bomb to
scare someone out of a movie theater to
be honest iris
and I think that I think most maybe on
this would as well look I think we can
all agree that that that action was so
lush and but we are not like and as a
result of that you'll notice we have not
done that again
Jordan Peterson on bhava hand is only
doubling down on his positions any of
the larger all seem to be quite
reasonable of many more resorts a much
wider base of support
yeah are you gonna cut protesters visit
here and try and protest outside his
talks we've got any number of things
better things to be doing Coraline or
are you gonna plan fight bombs and the
places he's speaking okay that's just
unfair alright frankly well I just
judging your path I've I've we've done
it once I've clearly stated that it was
a bad idea but we don't intend to repeat
it hmm okay well iris iris yeah I came
my closing comment well as far as we're
concerned the best thing we can do in
order to the best thing we can do in
order to counter activate is to make
people aware of what his views are what
do you see it and how old fan base
behave yeah and that's what we do and
all those views are very reasonable and
seemed to be having a positive effect on
the massive number of people who say
it's Aras and well cuz it's the truth
iris I thank you for your time
that's iris Chrissy ik of Oakland pace
action so that's that the Auckland Peace
Action Group did release another press
release on the 14th stating Auckland
Peace Action is issuing a statement to
publicly correct the record about a
protest action that occurred in
Wellington in 2018 this action occurred
at the screening of the film Ben Gurion
at the dark edge Film Festival both
Auckland Peace Action and our sister
organization Peace Action Wellington
opposed to showing of this film as it is
subject to an international boycott on
behalf of Palestinian civil society
organizations at both well
and Auckland screenings the screenings
were disrupted by activists with
noisemakers and alarms subsequently the
dark edge director alleged that there
was a fake bomb at the Wellington
screening and this was reported by new
hub this was a complete lie
there was never ever any fake bomb of
any sort whatsoever NZ police attended
both protests and were fully aware that
the items in the theaters were
noisemakers as were the theater goers
the theater was not evacuated and no one
was arrested so it appears that at least
as far as Auckland peace action is
concerned that Shawn overstated the case
in that lecture in any case the next day
I had a chance to talk to him directly
and so now we're going to segue directly
into that first let's get the pronouns
out of the way what would you prefer I
called you professor dr. Jordan
Jordan's fine Jordan's fine I like it
that way as well
um Jordan my first question for you and
the reaction here in New Zealand
to the very idea that you're coming here
or that you're fronting on this show
today I just got to say and I've watched
you for a couple of years you are one of
the most hated people online why do you
think it is that well I'm hated by a
very small minority a very noisy and
committed people yeah and so they're
noisy and committed and so they could
make a lot of racket and they are very
good at it and often ly perfet often
professionally trained to do so and
they're very casual with their what
would you call it epithets I mean I was
listening to you introduce me and you
you listed off about 20 terrible things
that I might be many of which were
contradictory but that doesn't seem to
make any difference what so selearis you
you kind of get your celebrity gets
co-opted from people on all sorts of
parts of the political spectrum and
extremes of the political spectrum
doesn't it well I think there's some of
that I don't know if it gets co-opted
too much on the radical left let's say
although I certainly face them
geordie of my opposition from the
radical left but the radical right types
are not very fond of me either there was
a new book written called Dianetics by a
rather reprehensible individual named
Vox Dei and if you want to find out what
the ethno nationalists think about me
that's pretty good read I wouldn't call
it precisely complementary look on a
personal level and I'm someone who has
fallen foul of the vagaries of Twitter
pylons but what's directed at you is
that a whole different level Jordan and
you've admitted I know that you have or
not struggle but you admit you've had
episodes of depression in your life I
know people who have been horribly
affected by the most minor pile on on
social media how do you as an individual
take or channel that hatred to good and
I imagine it affects your family as well
well part of it is that I have a pretty
solid family you know I have lots of
people behind me like my wife is firmly
behind me without hesitation my children
are behind me and they're smart and
mature and my parents are behind me and
I have a good set of friends and also
generally I try not to talk about things
that I don't know something about which
also helps yeah so and I'm not impressed
with the sorts of ideological positions
that have been put forth especially by
the left-wing radical types in the
universities and I understand what
they're doing and why reasonably well
and I feel that whatever vitriol happens
to be directed at me is trivial in terms
of its danger in comparison to the
overwhelming social danger that these
ideologies are producing and so better
to do something about it now than to
wait also in a social media world that
is dominated by extremism and hatred and
vitriol people I know who have have
watched you literally dumbstruck by your
ability to remain civil and to engage in
debate without getting angry
those who often absolutely lambaste you
I think I've only seen there was a
debate you did with Stephen Fry where an
American passed ahead ago and I think I
saw some fire there I think you were
genuinely upset but you seem to have a
remarkable remarkable ability to play
the ball not the man or woman well that
that debate the Munk debate that you're
talking about mostly I was upset about
the foolishness you know the the person
I was debating with call owed me an
angry white man and it just struck me is
so so rhetorically foolish and
inflammatory and unnecessary all of
those things at the same time first of
all he was in Canada and not in the
United States and those sorts of
statements I actually don't go over very
well in Canada and my race had
absolutely nothing to do with what we
were talking about and so it was just
the kind of troublemaking statement that
does nothing but make things worse and
I'm never happy when I see people
behaving in a manner that only makes
things worse and so that that and I felt
even it's a funny thing I can't say
exactly felt bad for him but I thought
it was so foolish of him to undermine
his own credibility in that manner it
was just the sort of performance that
removes all patience you know a bad
rhetorical statement and unnecessary
racist comment a rhetorical flourish
that had nothing but counterproductive
consequences as you can see by the
YouTube commentary added nothing at all
that was productive to the debate didn't
address the issues at hand was a cheap
method of scoring points a way of
playing victim I mean it was altogether
a second-rate performance and and
because he had academic pretensions was
a professor I have a lot less patience
for professors and professional
journalists than I do for you know other
people because well because they're
they're supposed to well that's their
profession I thought Stephen Fry was
brilliant in that debate and he started
outside you didn't agree
a lot of what you said but he was gonna
stand next to you and fight you aside
and he also said the world would be a
much better place if everyone was less
convinced of how right they were
yeah well Stephen Fry is really
something it was a pleasure to meet him
and he's he's quite the remarkable
person so that was one of the very good
things about that evening we're gonna
take a break Jordan and then I want to
talk to you about an interview I did
yesterday and if that's typical of the
stuff that you get yeah the interview
man we're with dr. Jordan B Peter said
and here I made you talk better than
just to see and we would talk to Jordan
B Peterson cultural phenomenon and
according to Oakland Peace Action the
biggest threat to New Zealand's way of
life and civilization that oh I don't
know we've seen since the last
earthquake they came out earlier this
week and through a lot of labels at dr.
Peterson and the aspo --cz Minh iris or
spokesperson iris came on with me
yesterday simply so I could ask them to
well provide the proof of their
accusations I didn't think he did that
well or they did that well Jordan well
it was quite the remarkable interview I
think that I don't know how many people
have watched it but I listened to it but
I suspect quite a few and it's no wonder
because it was it was a real feat of
journalistic persistence I would say on
your part you didn't let your your
interviewee off the hook for a moment
and there wasn't much content there
there was a lot of exactly the same sort
of thing that's been happening for the
last two years it's really quite
appalling and that what what seems to
happen generally in the journalistic
sphere on the negative side for me is
that there's a list of epithets that are
it's like all the radical leftists have
a list of epithets that are sort of at
hand maybe they have them on a little
sticky on their computer misogynist
homophobe Islamophobe transform bigoted
racist then there's often some either
Nazi I don't forget you can addiction
either location there know that and and
or this Jewish
Schill which is another one that comes
up now and then and the idea seems to be
that if you don't agree with what
someone says that you just lay out the
longest possible list of pejoratives
that your imagination your collective
imagination can generate and hope that
one of them is sufficiently true in some
sense because of something you once said
that it sticks and you're done
and it's it's getting downright dull I
mean well I decide that it seems to me
that liberal journalists throughout the
Western world have been lighting up to
try and take you down yeah well I mean
I've had a fair number of journalists
who being supportive supportive of me
now whether or not they are on the
liberal side they're certainly not on
the radical left side yes this has been
happening pretty much non-stop for two
years and they're basically out of
insults as far as I can tell which in
some sense disarms them but they're
actually getting rather dull to read
because it's always the same old thing
although the person you interviewed
yesterday did have a new twist which was
greatest threat to the civilization of
New Zealand which was really quite
impressive as far as pejoratives went
alright so we've dealt with Oakland
Peace Action I know you're in Australia
now has the if you like the violent
opposition to you for whatever reason is
it starting to subside and I know they
haven't been protests as I understand so
far in Australia there was a few in
Adelaide but above 25 and and and they
it wasn't exactly clear what they were
protesting they seem to be more
concerned about homosexual rights which
I don't really know what that has to do
with me but it had to do with whatever
they were interested in protesting but
there was nothing in Melbourne at all
though there was quite a large police
presence at the venue well there were a
lot of people there was about 5,500
people but there wasn't a single
protester and I would say that yes
overall the virulence and also the
frequency of the hip pieces in the media
is has declined rather precipitous
in the last three or four months and I
think it's because well because it's
become dreadfully repetitious and
because no smoking pistol of any sort
has emerged you know people have gone
over virtually everything I've said to
students for the last 20 years because
almost all of it is recorded and scoured
my Twitter feed and my Facebook and you
know all the social media platforms that
are usable and haven't been able to find
anything so far that's of sufficient
reprehensibility to take my reputation
out but the dot so that we had Jordan
come on yellow yeah well it's not just a
bit weird it's it's very weird but you
know it's not something I am some I want
to go back two years and in many ways I
look at you and if I was gonna put you
in a fable you're the guy who said the
emperor has no clothes the emperor of
woke nurse of political correctness of
third wave feminism did you plan two
years ago to be where you are now a
cultural for not global cultural
phenomenon was it all part of some some
clever manipulation of you know modern
social media or did you just stand up
and say I'm not gonna do this well I
mean I was writing a book and I was
hoping it would be successful so there
was that and you know I had been
experimenting quite substantially with
with YouTube putting my my lectures from
the University on YouTube and some
lectures that I had done for a small
television show and they were developing
a certain following so I had about a
million views far before the political
controversy hit but no I mean there's no
way of predicting what happened it's
it's it's a completely unpredictable
phenomena but phenomenon but I can't and
say that I said what I felt like saying
as carefully as I possibly could and I'd
pretty much had enough of it I mean
seriously I've had
off of it and I'm not happy with the
radical leftists I think the postmodern
philosophy is what intellectually vapid
nihilistic malevolent destructive
arrogant and narcissistic impractical as
well all at the same time I think that
what's happening to the humanities and
Social Sciences is borders on
fraudulently criminal if it hasn't
already passed the line and I'm
absolutely no friend whatsoever of
radical leftist utopians I I feel that
there's after a hundred years of
evidence of complete bloody catastrophe
on the side of the radical left it's
time for us to wake up and notice that
something has gone wrong on that end of
the spectrum and I don't see any
responsibility being taken for that at
all
you know I've called publicly for the
moderate leftist types who might have
some sympathy for to draw some lines
it's like all right we know that things
can go too far on the left when exactly
where where is it that you go too far
now my sense it's with the equity
doctrine which I think is not really
emotionally powerful unfortunately it
doesn't have that that that kick that's
necessary to make something really stick
in the memory but I think the idea of
equality of outcome is dangerous beyond
comprehension all right I want to talk
about a few things going on in New
Zealand which is you know part of the
culture war we're part of the global
community and we connected online a
first up we have a cabinet the Labour
Party the largest member of our or part
of our coalition government it has a
quota a male/female quota for cabinet
posts yeah yeah what do you think of
that I think there's absolutely no
excuse for it I think that it's a it's a
you know the the radical leftists are
always yammering on about biological
essentialism make which they are so
associate with something akin to fascism
you know the idea that there are mutable
biological characteristics that define
people and yet they're the first people
to insist that if you're going to have a
cabinet
that is let's say both competent and
representative that you have to divide
it according to identity categories and
first and foremost perhaps the ones of
sex and and to pick your cabinet by
genitalia is not an acceptable technical
move and exactly the same thing happened
in Canada where 25% of our major parties
elected officials were female but 50% of
the cabinet members members ended up
being female and all that means what
that certainly means is that the lead
the most qualified people were not
selected because it's statistically
impossible for them to have been
selected it was cheap virtue signaling
and and it's also technically impossible
even from the perspective of the
leftists themselves with their
intersectionality because they insist
that people have to be judged in
relationship to their oppression on
multiple dimensions simultaneously and
I've done some back-of-the-envelope
mathematical calculations and if you
have 10 dimensions that mark you out
let's say as in terms of your of the
group affiliations that characterize you
then you're the only person like that in
the world
so as you multiply all you have to do is
do the math as you multiply the number
of groups that have to be given favored
status because of their hypothetically
oppressed situation then you make it
increasingly impossible for equality of
outcome to even be - to be something
that can be practically implemented
without a bureaucracy of terrifying
proportions we also have a Ministry of
Women's Affairs in New Zealand and the
minister of Women's Affairs or the
Minister for woman as she's known
suggested recently that there were too
many white old men on boards of New
Zealand of private and public companies
and just suggested that they needed to
move aside so there could be more
diversity your response to that
suggestion well what's her racial and
ethnic background just out of curiosity
born in America julienne jente she's a
member of our Green Party here is she
white yes well maybe it's time for her
to bloody well move aside and let
someone who isn't white have her
position all right so I'm tae key you
don't agree with Julie Angeles also look
they've tried this in Scandinavia where
they put you know they've put quotas for
females on boards and part of the idea
was that if you did that that you would
increase the rate at which women would
move through managerial and
administrative status rankings and that
has had zero success this Jeannot so is
Jordan that actually woman can somehow
up the financial performance of guys
sure that's you don't believe that
stance there's no evidence for that
what what what elevates the financial
productivity of companies is quite clear
trait conscientiousness which is a
marker for integrity and trustworthiness
and diligence ness diligence and
dutifulness is a very good predictor of
long-term economic productivity and so
is general cognitive ability and that
holds across sexes and races and the
reason for that and this is the non
racist and non sexist way of looking at
the world by the way is that there is
far more difference between individuals
within groups than there are between
groups because look the fundamental
racist sexist ethnocentric proposition
is that there are more differences
between groups of people then there are
within groups of people yes that's
essentially the racist doctrine yeah and
so we need some black people because you
know all those black people are the same
and unless we have a voice or two from a
black person then we don't have that set
of identity issues represented well it's
just simply not the case because most of
the diversity comes at the level of
individual personality in temperament
and the literature on that is crystal
clear you know these these these are
pseudo intellectual claims made by
people on the radical left and they're
very dangerous
because they're easily shifted into the
sorts of things that the radical right
likes to enjoy which is oh I see
there are immutable differences between
gender sexes and the races and they're
of substantial import and that we we we
we need to take them into account when
we're what would you say formulating
such things is immigration policy so no
there's no evidence that those claims
are correct and and there's counter
evidence for much of it for so example
in in Scandinavian and this is this is
as close to psychological fact as any
facts that exist is that as you increase
equality of opportunity which means you
open the doors for more and more people
and especially let's say with regards to
sex and and that's had a big effect
because of course it's far more women in
the workforce than there than there once
was you increase the degree to which
outcomes differ on multiple dimensions
and that's partly there's a variety of
reasons for that at least a dozen and
they're all important one of which is
that women especially once they hit
their 30s prefer to work part time and
that's not bad or wrong and it's
certainly not an indication of systemic
sexism so the the radical types like to
have one explanation everyone isn't
exactly the same with regards to outcome
therefore the system is a corrupt
patriarchy it's like you can learn that
in one minute in a in a propaganda
course in university and then you have
an answer for every problem that ever
besets you politically for the rest of
your life and there's no excuse for it
it's appalling scholarship I want to
come back to that point the other thing
bill proposed bill we have before our
parliament is the idea of six
self-identification to make it easier
for people to alter their birth
certificates if they choose to identify
as anything other than the six they were
born as your views on on that sort of
legislation well the first thing I would
say it might be useful to really address
some important
problems that would be the first thing
you're dealing with an absolutely tiny
minority of people not that that's
completely without import but the second
thing is it has to be thought through
and it's not I mean I don't know if
you've been followed we just having a
little hiccup there and we're talking to
dr. Jordan B Peterson who's joining us
from Scott from Sydney Jordan we were
talking about sir
sex self-identification changes or
proposed reforms and New Zealand you
said fiercely it's a tiny number of
people affected and secondly you say we
need to think it through and what way
well one of the things that's happened
for example so really what this is is an
attempt by a certain ideological
movement to to put forth the insistence
that sex is only a sociological
construct that it's only something
learned and so that it can be changed at
whim which is also a strange thing
because if it's learned it can't really
be changed at whim and also if it's
learned it could be unlearned which is
something that the people who are
putting this legislation forward aren't
really thinking through because that
opens up the opportunity for people who
would like to reform people who would
like to change their gender back to say
normative behavior because if it's
learned it can be unlearned but more
importantly sex roles are not only
learned they're partly learned and
there's plenty of biological differences
between men and women and then and many
of them aren't trivial like men and
women are more the same than they are
different but the differences are quite
market at the extremes and so what we're
seeing partly as a consequence of this
now is the movement of say trans women
into female sports you saw this in
Minnesota just the other day I think it
was Minnesota where a newly transition
trans woman has been shattering though
weightlifting records for women and more
degree in Assoc here with a Commonwealth
Games competitor it was a former model
it's absolutely insane
you know I mean first the fact that it's
allowed to begin with is beyond
comprehension it's a real sign of
cultural insanity and the second is that
psychologically it's almost
incomprehensible I can't imagine how you
could be a man who transformed himself
into a woman in all the ways that that's
possible and then decided to go compete
in it high level sports arena with women
who've been training their whole lives
to hit the peak of their ability and
then to absolutely bloody demolish them
say after a year of work and then to
tout that as some sort of victory for
the oppressed it's completely what's
narcissistic beyond comprehension and
it's it's it's well it's a sign of what
happens when you don't carefully think
things through all sorts of unexpected
consequences tend to manifest themselves
and you see the same thing happening now
with rapid onset gender dysphoria and
the treatment of very young people with
very powerful hormonal and surgical
techniques designed to permanently alter
their psychophysiological structure and
like we're gonna pay for this in a big
way in 15 years when these kids grow up
and hit adulthood and start tossing out
lawsuits as they certainly will and
should where we're going to look back
and wonder just exactly what the hell
was wrong with us so it's it's it's it's
well it's Jen I've been by this ideology
that that's been formulated by people
like Judith Butler who absolutely insist
because they have no biological
knowledge whatsoever that all the
differences between men and women are
socially constructed it's just which is
absolutely not true true absolutely in
general Tim's Jordan and we have it in
this country and indeed everywhere we
look at the millennial generation they
get a bit of stick here they called
snowflakes they seem to get outraged not
only on their own behalf but on behalf
of others at the drop of a hat and they
use social media as elsewhere in the
world to call out the things they find
offensive or that their feelings do you
think there is a collective
generational psychosis appearing because
of social media I don't know if the
millennial generation is any less sane
than the baby boomers I mean the baby
boomers have plenty of trouble and they
cause plenty of grief and misery in the
1960s and experimented you know crazily
with psychedelic drugs and a wild
lifestyle and promiscuous sex and all of
those things and I don't think the
Millennials are any worse or any better
I do think that there is a small subset
of them who are rather dependent and
rather narcissistic and who are being
encouraged in both of those by
reprehensible adults in positions of
authority primarily in the Universities
to make the most of their victimhood
feelings and status and I do think that
the social media platforms also allow
for disproportionate effect of social
effect of people who have extreme views
that also in combination with the with
the increasing death of the of the
standard collective media which is
increasingly desperate for attention and
so those spends more and more attention
paying to people who paying spends more
and more time paying attention to people
who have extreme views on the right and
the left you might be exceptions that
proves there well it's it's possible oh
I bet I mean I'd certainly be
represented as an extreme faker and
that's really something that apart from
the fact that I'm adamant in my
opposition to the radical leftists which
is rather rare among intellectuals
which brings us actually yet rather
nicely Jordan to what I want talk about
I ask people to call in yesterday and it
was remarkable the variety and number of
people who sent me messages and rang and
and said simply reading your book had
changed their life and oh can I just put
a call out if you want to talk to Jordan
we've got quarter an hour oh eight
hundred eight four four seven four seven
if you'd like to ask a question or send
a message or just say something to
Jordan you can ring him now
Oh 808 four four seven four seven Jordan
it also seems to me as much as
see all the hatred against you in the
controversy around you online geez
there's a lot of love fear and there's a
lot of positivity and you seem to be
engaging and smiling and with young
people there's some good stuff happening
here isn't there
oh yeah way more than like the the the
vitriol vitriolic aspect of it is only a
sporadic bother to me usually in the
aftermath of a particularly difficult
interview with a journalist but the tour
I mean I've been to about a hundred and
forty cities now around the world and
the average audience size is well it's
buried between 2,500 and 8,000 with I
would say an average of about 2,500 to
3,000 and they're the events are
unbelievably positive so most of the
time I'm surrounded by nothing but
positive responses and when I go out on
the street mm-hmm no wherever I go you
know in a typical hour I'll be stopped
by six or seven people they're usually
young men because the media has
convinced yeah well I was gonna say
yesterday we had just as been a young
woman and middle-aged woman and
middle-aged men ringing in well that's
good I think that's changed to some
degree because of the book but all of
the interactions that I have with people
on the street or in airports or so on
they're all incredibly positive people
are very polite they come up there
usually apologetic for interrupting they
introduce themselves they tell me that
watching my lectures are listening to
the audio or reading the book has
changed their life they usually tell me
a story about what's changed they have a
better let's do that in real time right
now Jordan say hello to Rachel hello
Rachel Oh
kyouda Jordan I'm very nervous to be
talking to you and I'm gonna not very be
very good at being precise in my speech
and when I keep it very briefing to say
um thank you as all I wanted to say I'm
one of the people whose life has been
changed immeasurably by your book and
your lectures and everything there you
stand for has really had a massive
positive influence on me so I just want
to tell you how grateful so what changed
it would take a very long time to get
into it but I have struggled with mental
health issues for the majority of my
life since puberty I'm Lucy now and I've
been through every type of treatment
counseling therapy medication everything
you can think of and you know things
have helped me briefly for a little
while and got better than Chris again
but your book I guess it's the adoption
of personal responsibility more than
anything else and and the more
responsibility I take on the more I find
I'm able to and the more unable to get
myself out there and put myself in
situations I wouldn't have normally had
the confidence to I'm standing up
straighter I'm not that great to keep in
my room tighter yet but I'm working on
it
little things everything just but the
more I take on the more the better it
gets
yes well that's a good rule that's a
good rule you know that's a good
psychotherapeutic rule is the more that
you take on without overloading yourself
you know because you have to be sensible
about it the more you find that you have
abilities that will manifest themselves
that had been hidden up to that point
because of fear and avoidance and so
more power to you as far as I'm
concerned and I'm very glad to hear that
what I've been doing has been helpful
good on your right so Mary welcome thank
you very much for this opportunity I'm
doctor I was staring into the abyss and
now I'm not um I moved through my life
out purposely I consider every action
and it's reaction I treat myself like
I'm someone I care for great it's it's
been a revelation to me encountering you
I was in a very very very dark place and
somehow I found you online
I don't know folks through Dave Rubin or
or whether Shapiro or or I'm not quite
sure how it happened but I've seen your
lectures of this until it you met of
meaning your lectures on Genesis and
it's just been a remarkable
in my life in my family's life and I
just want to say thank you hey man I'm
thrilled to hear it so do you do you
have any sense of what in particular did
it like what was it that struck you like
I think it it was just the pistol way
that you spoke and it was just such
plain English it was as you described
previously there was some rules are sort
of sort of cliches but they've they
hadn't been spoken of in a very long
time and it was as the previous quality
of the Professional Responsibility the
the taking care of oneself and it just
struck such a chord it was I knew some
of the things that you were saying
I'd heard them before but I hadn't heard
them in a very long time my father used
to say yeah strike with your shoulders
back and and finally there it was again
but it was being said in a different way
in it yeah well the thing is you need to
know why that's that's the thing and
that's what I tried to do with my
lectures and partly because I'm a
behavioral psychologist it's like we
have all these more rules and and people
are told the rules but they're very
seldom given a multi-dimensional
explanation of why the rules are
necessary you know it's well you should
do it because that's what people do or
that's because you know that's what good
people do or it's your responsibility
and all those things are true but it be
an explanation of why it's true and how
it's related to the responsibility that
gives your life meaning and also
improves the world your family and the
community that's that's often lacking
and so that's what I was trying to
provide and it is clear and and and and
in English as clear as I could manage it
and so you know it I've tried to make it
practical and useful for people and I'm
really very very happy to hear that it's
worked for you and for your family I'm
thrilled to hear it as I always am when
I hear a story like that
Peter joins us now welcome Peter how you
doing yeah hello yeah hello how are you
doing Peter very very well hey have you
in a moment of self-reflection had a
look back on on this amazing and
astounding following you created and and
wondered where it's going to end up
because at the risk of sounding
oxymoronic you're probably the closest
thing the secular humanist tears to a
messiah well I thought about that I
wouldn't say precisely in those terms I
mean one of the things I did learn from
studying Carl Jung years ago was that if
you're going to talk about archetypal
stories which I do all the time that you
have to be very careful not to confuse
yourself with the archetype you know and
so I'm I'm I'm very cognizant of the
danger of the kind of popularity that
I'm experiencing and and I do mean the
danger because the higher you fly the
faster you can fall and and you have to
be very careful to ensure that you're
not increasing the probability of that I
try to make sure that I credit other
people with many of the ideas that I
formulated and because I've learned a
lot from reading the great clinicians
and and philosophers of the last say
hundred and fifty years and from my
clinical practice and so on and so and I
think of this endeavor not as something
that I'm doing but as something that
we're all collectively engaged in
because I know that you know that
there's an old idea that every person is
a center of the world and that the
weight of the world for better or worse
weighs upon the shoulders of each person
and I really believe that's true and so
if you know that then it keeps the
egotism and the arrogance down partly
out of sheer terror and it makes it much
more effective to deal with people like
when I'm lecturing in front of an
audience I'm not lecturing to them you
know I'm lecturing with them talking
about problems that we all have
including me and aims that we all all
need to develop including me and you
have to include yourself so to speak
among the sinners and the and the
reprehensible types in order to
communicate with people properly and I
do my best to in
sure that I'm starkly aware of my
shortcomings and faults at every moment
I can possibly manage and I have family
and friends who also help keep what I'm
doing in check and and to make sure that
it's not going sideways in some manner
that's you know where I'm taking things
for granted or becoming arrogant or any
of that and so so far that's worked out
well and hopefully it will continue to
JA welcome to the program oh hi Joe
thanks for talking with me Jordan
all right sure how are you doing good
thank you so I'm a young academic in New
Zealand and one of the problems were one
of the obsessions I would say we have in
universities is a focus on race and
gender so I'm I would call a centrist
position somewhat liberal minded but
what advice would you give a young
academic pushing against the what I see
is the far less the gender of the
universities well the first thing I
would say is they're a lot more moderate
types of your sort than you think and so
if you're a careful person and you're
thinking things through and you have
things to object to you can be sure
virtually sure that a majority of people
agree with you even though they're too
cowed let's say to to speak up I would
say get your thoughts in order you know
so you know what you stand for and then
I would also say don't agree with
anything that you don't agree with
because all that'll happen and you're a
young academic all that will happen if
you compromise your intellectual soul
like increment by increment over the
next ten years is that you will end up
alcoholic and bitter hating your job
despised by your undergraduates and
absolutely sick of your existence and
like you got to keep that really firmly
in mind because every time you're called
upon to stand forth for something you
believe in it
it's a test of character and courage and
it's easy to put it off because it's a
lot of trouble you know it's a lot of
conflict and you might think oh god do I
really have to go through with this I've
got other things to do and if the answer
is well I better stand up for what I
believe in now because if I keep letting
it go increment by increment for the
next ten years I'm going to end up in a
position that that is absolutely
dreadful
you know you'll be much older than you
need to be and all of the thrill that
should be part of teaching young people
and doing research and staying on the
cutting edge of knowledge all of that
will have been taken away by the
ideologue who already know everything
and insist that they get to regular hey
what you think and say so I don't have
the small fights one by one value other
lucky lasted the callers Jordan split
yet yeah dr. Jordan Peterson you are
awesome man already Brooks will be
following you I'm assuming psychology
and philosophy myself that did a degree
and I'm doing my posters here and a lot
of what you say you know there's a wee
bit of each in there and I'm is you know
and I totally agree because we live in a
society where like for me I often say
what I think you know it's to moderate
that but particularly today in our
society when you do that you're in way
more trouble for offending someone or
something and I love the fact that you
kind of get it out there and I wish that
you know I had that opportunity to just
and get it out and people didn't get
over one one question I was wanting to
ask you though I mean I'm a I'm a
Christian but I studied Marcus Aurelius
and I read his book and I see all those
books are you into stole isn't um not I
wouldn't say specifically lots of people
who have been studying stoicism have
talked to me and suggested that I should
be the overlap I think is that the stoic
virtues have been radically under played
in our society because we have this eye
that life is easy and that we should be
happy and well first of all life isn't
easy and perhaps we should be happy but
there's lots of times when we're not
going to be in Jordan all right I hate
to break this up but coming up to the
news we've got calls stacked up I'm
hoping to meet you when you come here
and I'd like to invite you now if you
get any spare time in your schedule to
come into the studio because let's
really our boards a fill with people who
want to talk to you I also want to thank
you enormous Lee for your time today and
for assuring us that you will not you
know lead to the deal visit will not
lead to the downfall of New Zealand
civilization as we know it well I hope I
hope I think you have quite a
civilization and that would I'd hate to
be the bringer of its downfall so we'll
hope that doesn't happen
lovely tone dear Jordan thank you very
much for your time so I'll just end this
video with a reminder that there are
still tickets left to the twelve rules
for live lecture tour if you'd like to
see it in New Zealand at the Michael
Fowler Center Thursday February 21st
that's in Wellington at the Logan
Campbell Center Saturday February 23rd
that's in Auckland then back to
Australia ICC Sydney Theatre at darling
harbour Tuesday February 26th in Sydney
plenary Melbourne Convention and
Exhibition Centre Wednesday February
27th in Melbourne and in Brisbane
Brisbane Convention and Exhibition
Centre Thursday February 28th you can
find information about those tickets at
Jordan B Peterson com forward slash
events that's Jordan B Peterson com
forward slash events hope to see you
there thank you very much bye-bye