>> Stephen: THANK YOU, EVERYBODY.
WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE SHOW."
FOLKS, MY NEXT GUEST IS A PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN AND
PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR.
HER LATEST WORK IS THE DOCUMENTARY SERIES "ABRAHAM
LINCOLN."
>> IS THERE ANOTHER CHOICE?
A THIRD OF OUR COUNTRY IS IN REBELLION BECAUSE THEY DON'T
LIKE THE LAWS WE ALL AGREED ON.
IF WE LET THIS STAND FOR ONE MINUTE LONGER, WE MIGHT AS
WELL SAY GOOD-BYE TO THE WHOLE THING.
UNION, DEMOCRACY, ALL OF IT.
>> Stephen: PLEASE WELCOME BACK "TO THE LATE SHOW," DORIS KEARNS
GOODWIN!
IT.
♪ ♪ ♪
♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: GOOD TO SEE
YOU, DORIS.
>> IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN!
>> Stephen: ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU ON.
HOW HAVE YOU BEEN?
>> GOOD, LOTS OF TIMES WE'VE BEEN TOGETHER.
>> Stephen: A LOT OF TIMES.
YOU HAVE THIS MU PROJECT "ABRAHAM LINCOLN," WHICH IS
SO RESONANT TO THIS MOMENT.
HERE IS A PRESIDENT WHO IS...
RISKING HIS POLITICAL CAR CAREER, DOING THE RIGHT
THING, TRYING TO SAVE A DEEPLY POLARIZED COUNTRY.
WHAT-- WHAT DO YOU THINK HISTORY HAS TO SAY TO
AMERICA IN THIS MOMENT?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY BEING AT
PERIL NOW, BUT WE HAVE TO JUST UNDERSTAND WHAT
DEMOCRACY MEANS, BECAUSE WE CAN FIGHT FOR IT.
DEMOCRACY MEANS THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR YOUR LEADERS.
IT'S SO SIMPLE.
AND THAT RIGHT TO VOTE IS UNDER ATTACK TODAY.
IT'S UNDER ATTACK EVERY TIME WE TRY AND PREVENT PEOPLE
FROM VOTING.
IT'S UNDER ATTACK WHEN WE DON'T ACCEPT AN ELECTION
THAT WAS FAIRLY WON.
AND THIS IS THE FIGHT I-- I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE THE
FIGHT AND THE PASSION AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE CIVIL
RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF THE 60s AND BRING IT BACK TO WHAT
OUR WHOLE GENERATIONS HAVE TO BE FIGHTING FOR RIGHT
NOW.
>> Stephen: NOTHING ELSE MATTERS IF YOU CAN'T SAVE
THE VOTE, RIGHT?
>> NOTHING ELSE.
>> Stephen: ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THE
EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION, IS MY UNDERSTANDING HE WAS
GETTING A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM THOSE AROUND HIM, EVEN
HIS SUPPORTERS, SAYING, "DON'T DO IT NOW."
BECAUSE IT WAS IN 1863, AND HE WAS FACING REELECTION.
BUT HE SAID, "NO, IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAT I DO THIS IN
THE-- IN THE ARC OF HISTORY THAN MY POLITICAL CAREER."
THERE ARE SO MANY POLITICIANS TODAY THAT SEEM
TO BE ACTING IN COWARDLY WAYS.
WHAT-- WHAT LESSONS CAN THEY DRAW FROM LINCOLN?
>> YOU KNOW, I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS.
YOU'VE BEEN IN PUBLIC LIFE, MAYBE ALL YOUR LIFE, IS IT
WORTH JUST WINNING ANOTHER ELECTION AND DOING THE WRONG
THING AND NOT STANDING UP FOR WHAT HISTORY IS GOING
TO-- HISTORY IS GOING TO REGARD THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE
NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING NOW BADLY.
DON'T THEY CARE HOW THEIR CHILDREN OR CHILDREN'S
CHILDREN ARE GOING TO THINK ABOUT THIS?
THAT'S WHAT I HOPE.
FOR THAT'S WHAT LINCOLN WAS ALWAYS CONCERNED WITH-- HOW
AM I GOING TO BE REMEMBERED FOR HAVING DONE SOMETHING
WORTHWHILE TO MAKE PEOPLE'S LIVES BETTER, TO ACHIEVE
SOCIAL JUSTICE.
YOU WILL BE MUCH BETTER OFF, IN THE AFTERLIFE, AS WELL AS
LIFE RIGHT NOW.
( APPLAUSE ).
>> Stephen: THAT'S AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION YOU'RE
MAKING.
WHEN YOU SAY IN THE VIEW OF HISTORY, YOU MEAN YOUR
CHILDREN AND YOUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN, BECAUSE WE ORDAIN
AND ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION FOR OURSELVES
AND OUR POSTERITIY, IT SAYS IN THE PREAMBLE.
>> HEY!
>> Stephen: WHEN WE SAY IN THE VIEW OF HISTORY, WHAT
WILL YOUR GRANDCHILDREN THINK OF YOU?
WHAT DID YOU DO TO SAFEGUARD THE BLESSINGS OF DEMOCRACY
FOR THE REST US, OR DID YOU JUST LOOK AFTER YOUR OWN
CAREER BECAUSE THERE WAS POWER IN IT FOR YOU?
NOW, I KNOW THAT YOU-- I KNOW THAT LINCOLN HAS
LESSONS FOR US.
BUT IN-- IF YOU COULD SIT ANY PRESIDENT DOWN WITH JOE
BIDEN RIGHT NOW TO GIVE HIM SOME ADVISE ADVICE-- BECAUSE
EVERY PRESIDENT NEEDS SOME ADVICE-- WHO WOULD YOU PICK
TO HAVE A LITTLE COFFEE WITH JOE?
>> YOU CAN'T ASK ME TO PICK JUST ONE OF MY GUYS.
I WOULD FEEL GUILTY ABOUT THE OTHER GUYS.
>> Stephen: I HAVE TO ASK YOU.
>> YOU CAN ASK ME, BUT I DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER.
I WOULD BRING TEDDY ROOSEVELT BACK FOR THE
ECONOMY.
HE UNDERSTOOD THAT THE ECONOMY WAS SHAKEN UP AT THE
TURN OF THE 20th CENTURY BY THE INDUSTRIAL
REVOLUTION, MUCH AS IT'S BEING SHAKEN UP TODAY BY THE
TECH REVOLUTION AND GLOBALIZATION.
>> Stephen: HE WAS A TRUST BUSTER.
>> HE KNEW THE BIG COMPANIES NOT PLAYING FAIR BY THE GAME
SHOULD BE UNDONE.
HE KNEW YOU HAD TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE PEOPLE
IN THE COUNTRY FEELING SPLIT OFF FROM THE CITY.
HE CALLED FOR THE SQUARE DEAL-- THIS IS WHEN WE NEED
A SQUARE DEAL PER THE RICH AND POOR AND CAPITALIST AND
WAGE WORKER.
AND I WOULD WANT L.B.J. TO COME BACK, HE WOULD KEEP THE
CONGRESSMEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE FOR A SLEEPOVER UNTIL
THEY GOT A VOTING RIGHTS BILL AND HE WOULDN'T LET
THEM LEAVE.
CAN I BRING ONE MORE GUY BACK?
I WILL BRING F.D.R. BACK BECAUSE HE COULD MAKE PEOPLE
FEEL CONFIDENT.
WE HAVE TO FEEL GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES BEFORE WE MOVE
FORWARD.
AND OF COURSE ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
I WOULD LIKE ALL MY FOUR GUYS TOGETHER.
WE WOULD BE BETTER OFF.
>> Stephen: SPEAK OF LINCOLN, THERE'S A QUESTION
I HAVE TO ASK.
>> UH-OH.
Q. YOU ARE THE PERSON WHO WOULDS WITH THE MOST CERTITUDE.
WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.
IN THE LOS ANGELES FEDERAL BILLION, THERE IS A STATUE OF
ABRAHAM LINCOLN AIR, YOUNG LINCOLN, AND IT WAS PUT IN THERE
IN 1939.
A COUCH YEARS AGO-- THIS GOT A LOVE OF ATTENTION BECAUSE PEOPLE
WERE SURPRISED-- THEY SAW IT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN WAYS I GUESS
THEY HADN'T BEFORE.
THIS IS THE STATUE, AND THEY WERE CALLING IT "HOT LINCOLN," I
BELIEVE.
THIS IS LINCOLN...
( LAUGHTER )
>> OH, MY GOD!
>> Stephen: WITHOUT A SHIRT ON AND, LIKE, ONE THUMB RIGHT IN
THE PANTS RIGHT THERE.
IS THIS AN ACCURATE DEPICTION OF HOW SEXY LINCOLN WAS WHEN HE WAS
A YOUNG MAN?
>> I CAN CONFESS?
>> Stephen: YES.
>> THEY ALWAYS THOUGHT LINCOLN WAS SEXY AS A YOUNG MAN?
HE'S MY GUY.
NO, LOOK-- AND THERE'S NO BEARD.
I HATE THE BEARD.
THERE'S A PICTURE OF HIM WHEN HE WAS RUGGED, ABOUT TWO YEARS
BEFORE THE BEARD GREW, AND THAT'S THE GUY I FELL IN LOVE
WITH.
SO I LIKE THIS GUY.
>> Stephen: THERE'S A LOT TO LIKE.
THERE'S A LOT TO LIKE, DORIS.
>> DO YOU REMEMBER THE TIME YOU HAD ME CARRIED OUT BY FOUR HUNKY
LINCOLN S.
>> Stephen: I DO REMEMBER THAT.
FOUR SHIRTLESS LINCOLNS CARRIED YOU OUT ON A LITTER.
>> WHAT WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT LINCOLN IS HE'S A MAN.
HE HAS A PASSION FOR POLITICS AND WOMEN, AS WELL.
HE THOUGHT ABOUT WOMEN ALL THE TIME.
>> Stephen: HOW DID MARY TODD FEEL ABOUT THAT?
>> WELL, SHE GOT HIM.
HE WAS HERS, SHE WAS HIS.
HE HAD OTHER PEOPLE AROUND-- NO, HE DIDN'T DO THAT.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.
I'M NOT CLAIMING THAT.
>> Stephen: YOU'RE GETTING ABE IN TROUBLE.
>> I'M GETTING MYSELF IN TROUBLE.
HE HAD A SENSE OF HUMOR.
YOU WOULD HAVE LOVED THIS GUY.
I CAN SEE HIM BEING ME SITTING HERE WITH YOU, BEARD GONE FROM
HIM, AND YOU WOULD HAVE A BROMANCE.
>> Stephen: WOW.
CAN YOU IMAGINE-- CAN YOU IMAGINE THE RATINGS WE WOULD GET
IF WE COULD BOOK LINCOLN?
BUT UNTIL I CAN, YOU'RE THE NEXT BEST THING, DORIS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ).
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN" PREMIERES SUNDAY ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL.
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, EVERYBODY!
APOLOGIES.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.