>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.
MY GUEST "NEW YORK TIMES" BEST SELLING AUTHOR, WHOSE
NEW BOOK IS CALLED "HERETIC: WHY ISLAM NEEDS REFORMATION NOW."
PLEASE WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM AYAAN HIRSI ALI.
HELLO.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE) HOW ARE YOU.
THANKS FOR COMING.
SIT.
HOW ARE YOU?
>> I'M GOOD. THANK YOU.
>> Jon: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
THE BOOK IS CALLED "HERETIC: WHY ISLAM NEEDS A
REFORMATION NOW."
MY FIRST QUESTION WOULD BE WHY DOES ISLAM NEED A
REFORMATION NOW?
>> BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THE
NAME OF ISLAM, TOO MANY WOMEN LIVE UNDER OPPRESSION.
TOO MANY JEWS ARE BEING DEMONIZED FOR IT,
TOO MANY GAYS ARE BEING KILLED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.
TOO MANY CHRISTIANS ARE BEING KILLED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.
I THINK IT REALLY HAS THE ANSWERS TO HAVE
THE REFORMATION NOW.
>> BUT ISN'T IT, IF I'M REMEMBERING THE REFORMATION
CORRECTLY, AND IT'S BEEN A WHILE --
>> YEAH.
>> WASN'T THE -- AREN'T WE HAVING THAT NOW?
AREN'T WE HAVING THE REFORMATION NOW?
THE REFORMATION WAS MARTIN LUTHER WANTED A PURER FORM
OF CHRISTIANITY.
AND SO WHEN HE PUT THAT UP THERE, IT CREATED A HUNDRED
YEARS OF VIOLENCE AND MAYHEM.
ISN'T THAT THE PROCESS THAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH RIGHT
NOW?
>> IT IS THE PROCESS THAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH RIGHT
NOW.
IT'S THE PROCESS THAT I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, THAT
YOU KNOW, TALK OF REFORMATION IN ISLAM HAS BEEN UNDER
WAY FOR A WHILE.
AND WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT NOW IS YES, THERE IS A GREAT
DEAL OF VIOLENCE IN THE NAME OF ISLAM BUT THERE IS AN
EMERGING AND INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT MINORITY OF REFORMERS
WHO ARE RISKING THEIR LIVES TRYING TO GET THIS CHANGE DONE.
AND I STAND WITH THEM. I HOPE YOU STAND WITH THEM.
>> RIGHT. WELL, NO, I MEAN, I GUESS MY POINT IS, I THINK
PEOPLE SINGLE OUT ISLAM AS THOUGH THERE'S SOMETHING
INHERENTLY WRONG WITH IT THAT WASN'T WRONG
WITH OTHER RELIGIONS.
AND SO I GUESS MY POINT IS IF CHRISTIANITY WENT THROUGH
ALMOST THE EXACT SAME PROCESS, PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT
THEY KNEW BETTER AND WERE PURER AND THAT CREATED
VIOLENCE, AND SO WHY, I GET THE SENSE THAT YOU THINK
ISLAM IS DIFFERENT THAN OTHER RELIGIONS.
>> WELL, I'M SAYING THAT CHRISTIANITY WENT THROUGH
THAT PROCESS OF REFORMATION AND ENLIGHTENMENT AND CAME TO A
FACE WHERE THE MASS OF CHRISTIANS AT LEAST IN THE
WESTERN WORLD --
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> HAVE ACCEPTED TOLERANCE IN THE SECULAR STATE, THE
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, RESPECT FOR WOMEN,
RESPECT FOR GAYS.
>> Jon: RIGHT. WELL.
>> YEAH WELL -- >> Jon: AND IN AFRICA I THINK
THERE ARE STILL CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC STILL HAS
CHRISTIAN -- >> CATHOLIC SCHOOL IN THE
NAME OF CATHOLICISM AND ARE HOMOPHOBIC.
>> Jon: YES. AND ALSO BEHEAD MUSLIMS AND DO CRAZY THINGS.
>> YEAH. CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC.
>> Jon: YEAH.
>> BUT THE MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS --
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> UNLIKE THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS ARE NOT SUBJECTED TO
VIOLENCE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE YOU KNOW 70% OF THE GLOBAL VIOLENCE IN
THE WORLD TODAY-- >> Jon: RIGHT.
>> MUSLIMS ARE RESPONSIBLE.
AND THE LARGEST NUMBER VICTIMS FROM IT.
>> Jon: OR ARE SUFFERING FROM IT.
BUT I GUESS MY POINT IS IT SEEMS LIKE THE NARRATIVE IS
FROM SOME REFORMISTS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING
INHERENTLY WRONG WITH THIS RELIGION THAT IS NOT WRONG
WITH OTHER RELIGIONS.
AND THAT'S THE THING THAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT.
>> YEAH, SO HERE'S THE KEY POINT.
>> Jon: YES.
>> THERE WERE CHRISTIANS WITHIN CHRISTIANITY WHO CAME OUT
AND SAID, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO CHANGE THINGS.
WE NEED TO REFORM, BASICALLY.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> THERE ARE NOW MUSLIMS TODAY IN GROWING NUMBERS,
NOT AS LARGE AS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE --
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> BUT IN GROWING NUMBERS WE'RE NOT POINTING THE FINGER TOWARDS
THE JEWS OR CHRISTIANS OR AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY OR
SOME OTHER EXTERNAL FACTOR BUT THEY'RE SAYING THERE IS
SOMETHING WRONG WITHIN OUR RELIGION.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> AND WHAT I'M TRING TO DO HERE AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP WITH THIS
RELIGION AND CAME OUT OF IT AND VERY MUCH, YOU KNOW,
DRIVEN BY A DESIRE TO CHANGE IT. OR TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> OR TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE IN THE CONVERSATION IS TO, OKAY,
LET'S IDENTIFY IT.
AND WHAT IS WRONG ABOUT IT.
YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IT WITH ISLAM THAT WE NEED TO CHANGE AND THEN
I HAVE FIVE KEY POINTS.
>> Jon: BUT I GUESS WHAT I AM SAYING IS THE REFORMATION
WAS NOT PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO MODERATE
CHRISTIANITY, IT WAS PEOPLE THAT WANTED IT PURER WHO
FELT THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD BECOME CORRUPT.
>> THE TWO, YEAH, SO THE TWO RELIGIONS, CHRISTIANITY IS
DIFFERENT FROM ISLAM.
THE ONES IN ISLAM WHAT ARE YOU KNOW ISLAMIC STATES RIGHT NOW IN
IRAQ AND SYRIA, GROUPS LIKE THAT.
>> Jon: RIGHT. THEY WANT A MORE PURE FORM.
>> THEY WANT --
>> Jon: AS THEY INTERPRET IT.
>> WELL, AND AS THEY APPLY IT.
>> Jon: AS THEY APPLY IT.
>> AND AS THE QUR'AN SAYS AND THE PROPHET MOHAMED LIVED IN
MEDINA. >> Jon: RIGHT.
>> THEY'RE TRYING TO EMULATE HIM IN THAT TIME.
>> I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THE QUR'AN IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN
BY A MAN AND BY MEN, AND IT IS TIME FOR THAT NARRATIVE TO
CHANGE. SO, I TOTALLY AGREE --
>> Jon: YOU GET WHAT I'M SAYING, LIKE TO SAY THAT IF WE JUST
CHANGE THE TEXT, DON'T WE HAVE TO SOMEWHAT CHANGE --
>> NO, WHAT I'M ARGUING IS NOT TO CHANGE THE TEXT.
>> Jon: YEAH. I SEE.
>> WHAT I'M ARGUING FOR IS FOR
MUSLIMS TO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THIS BOOK IS WRITTEN BY
A MAN A LONG TIME AGO AND THAT MORALITY-- OF THE 7th --
>> Jon: BUT THAT HASN'T BEEN ACCEPTED IN CHRISTIANITY YET.
>> MORALITY IN THE 7TH CENTURY DOESN'T APPLY TO THE 21st
CENTURY. AND THEY HAVE TO GIVE THAT UP.
>> Jon: THAT'S DIFFERENT.
>> I HONESTLY THINK THAT MOST CHRISTIANS
HAVE ACCEPTED THAT.
>> Jon: THAT THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY MAN.
>> THAT THE MORALITY OF GOD KNOWS WHEN DOESN'T APPLY NOW.
>> Jon: THAT'S DIFFERENT.
>> AND MOST MUSLIMS ARE STRUGGLING, ON THE ONE HAND
THE GROUP I CALL THE MECCA MUSLIMS, ON THE ONE HAND,
THEY'RE STRUGGLING TO BE AS TRUE TO THEIR RELIGION AS
THEY POSSIBLY CAN WHILE
ON THE OTHER HAND THEY ARE STRUGGLING TO THEN, YOU KNOW,
BE MODERN AND LIVE PEACEFUL PROSPEROUS LIVES.
AND I THINK THE WAY OUT OF THAT IS TO START THE
CONVERSATION ON THE PROBLEMS-- .
>> Jon: YOU WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO BUY YOUR BOOK.
>> I WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE THE CONVERSATION. YEAH, BUY MY
BOOK, PLEASE HEAR IT FOR YOURSELF.
>> Jon: OKAY. "HERETIC" IT IS ON THE BOOK SHELVES NOW.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI.