hello and welcome to ways to change the
world I'm Krishnan guru-murthy and this
is the podcast in which we talk to
extraordinary people about the big ideas
in their lives and the events that have
helped shape them and my guest today
kind of became a star all over the world
last year Bert had been a prominent man
in British public life for many many
years John Bercow stepped down after 10
years a Speaker of the House of Commons
at the end of last year and he's hugely
famous in America now and his his
version of order is obviously shouted at
him all around the world but you've also
made a huge political journey really
from being a right-wing conservative to
a man regarded as probably sympathetic
to the Labour Party could have defected
and became Speaker instead how good a
shape do you think British democracies
in right now how worried are you I think
he could be in a lot better shape than
it is now that's not a commentary on any
one particular political party I think
that the difficulties that we face have
substantially been spawned and certainly
exacerbated by the huge Russians the
divisions and the lingering bitterness
over brexit that's not going to
dissipate overnight or even necessarily
very quickly but I hope if there is a
mindset across the political parties
that says let's try to bring people
together and where we disagree let's try
to disagree agreeably that will probably
hasten the process of reconciliation but
I think part of the difficulty is this
resurgent populism which is a phenomenon
not just in the UK but in other parts of
Europe and in the United States and idea
really of simple answers krishnan too
often quite complex and multifaceted
questions that's one part of the
difficulty of our democracy and the
other I suppose in the UK
is a consequence of the democratic
process and in our system there's
nothing new about this is not Boris
Johnson's fault it's not an indictment
of him as Prime Minister or of any
particular political party but the other
problem is that if you have a government
with a very large majority because we
have a winner-takes-all system the
opportunities for the opposition are far
fewer and the scope for parliamentary
assertiveness which I happen to think is
a very important part of a functioning
pluralist democracy the scope for
parliamentary assertiveness is much
reduced but how fundamentally worried
about Britain and stability are um and
you mentioned the threat of populism we
now have a big majority under this
government I mean are these things that
you just see as sort of challenges as
part of the normal up and down British
politics or is there any particular
threat to British democracy at the
moment well as I say I think that the
tendency of people to think that there
are simple solutions to complex problems
is something of a challenge and I think
that if I talk about populism I would
say that it's a great thing a democratic
egalitarian enabling thing that people
who are not elected and don't occupy
positions of authority and don't work in
the media can express their views on
social networking sites so I think that
social media in that sense are a good
thing where they cease to be quite such
a good thing and are challenging for a
democratic system is when people think
that it is quite impossible for anyone
to hold of you legitimately that differs
from their own and I think in recent
years there has been a burgeoning
phenomenon of ad hominem abuse abuse of
Democratic legislators abuse in
particular of women abuse of ethnic
minority parliamentarians and so on and
those are problems but there
not attributable to one party or another
or to one prime minister or another and
therefore they shouldn't be the stuff of
parties an attack if you are asking me
do I think there are some problems which
afflict our democracy and about which we
ought to have an adult conversation I
think that there are and one of them is
the rise in frankly vulgar abuse on the
internet I thought myself sitting in the
speaker's chair during the brexit
debates that the way in which some of
the principled minority voices on the
remain aside were abused rubbished
vilified intimidated and threatened was
intolerable in that that sort of
appalling attitude towards other people
really bled into parliamentary debates
around the resumption of parliament
after the unlawful propagation now that
is that's what you begin your book your
autobiography unspeakable actually
begins with I'm not a prologue but a
prorogue in which you talk about that
and it will you shocked at the language
that was being used I was disappointed
but let's try to keep this in
perspective krishnan I was disappointed
and I say in that prorogue or prorogue
chapter at the start of the book that
there was a very toxic atmosphere when
Parliament came back in the latter part
of September and I had never known quite
such a high-octane toxic and at times
abusive atmosphere but I don't want it
to be thought and I'm not arguing that
that was in any sense the norm most of
the time that has not been the case in
Parliament most of the time indeed even
in the previous two or three years it
was not the case and I was speaker from
2009 to 2010 years and four months and
for the bulk of the time that I sat in
the chair debates were characterized by
robust but on the whole respectful
disagreement and I'm a big fan of my
colleagues I think the
Rexie fatigue which afflicted the
country also afflicted the house and
when people said well the house was
divided that reflected the divisions in
the country and when I talk about
fatigue I suppose what I mean is that
just as there were people in the country
getting fed up with it
there were colleagues in a sense almost
tiring of repeating the same points over
and over and over again but if there are
opponents were going to do so they had
to do so there was an inevitability
about it but I think probably because of
the sheer intensity and concentrated
focus on the brexit issue over such a
long period people became frazzled they
sometimes were irascible towards each
other there was on occasion a less
respectful and tolerant atmosphere than
had hitherto obtained but measured over
the 10 years I would say Parliament
operated very successfully and I would
myself argue Krishnan against those who
contend the opposite that from 2016
Parliament did its job there is a
narrative out there very popular of
course in parts of the newspapers that
it was a useless Parliament that it was
a rotten Parliament that it was a
illegitimate Parliament and one or two
senior ministers even saying this
Parliament is a disgrace this Parliament
has no moral right to say I did agree
with any of that I think that the last
Parliament was actually a good
Parliament yes it was undecided and the
issue of brexit in that Parliament was
unresolved but that was because the way
genuine strongly held and irreconcilable
differences of opinion in Parliament as
they were in the country and the
Parliament didn't just appear from
nowhere that Parliament was elected in
June 2017 almost a year after the EU
referendum and it had a duty to question
to probe to scrutinize to challenge the
government of the day across the field
of public policy
and most notably of course in its
pursuit of brexit and it did so and the
idea that it was under some sort of
bounden duty just to vote through the
brexit legislation and deal propose to
Parliament by the Teresa may government
is quite wrong but so my overall point
is the last Parliament was a good
Parliament I celebrate my parliamentary
colleagues and measured over a decade
I think Parliament was more lively more
interesting more dynamic more urgent
more unpredictable and more challenging
towards the executive branch than had
previously been the case and it is at
least part of the responsibility of the
speaker to champion Parliament acting as
scrutineer of the executive that's what
I sought to do am i proud of the fact
that we got through a lot more questions
during my time at question time sessions
and in the past I am am i proud of the
fact that I granted hundreds of urgent
questions to colleagues so that they
could question government ministers I am
am i proud of granting time for
emergency debates in a way that wasn't
previously fashionable and didn't on any
significant level happen I am I wasn't
supporting the government and I wasn't
supporting the opposition I was
supporting Parliament and that's won me
a lot of friends and it also made me a
lot of enemies and I'm completely
relaxed and sanguine about that well
we'll come back to that but let's let's
wind back to the beginning I mean we did
this interview through the prism of
changing the world when did you first
want to change the world I'd like to say
that I wanted to change the world when I
first came into politics if I'm really
brutally honest with you krishnan I
don't think I did I think in a very
general sense
I wanted good policies to be pursued and
I wanted the best for my country but
when I first became interested in
politics I was a conservative so I
wasn't mainly interested in changing the
world I was mainly interested in keeping
the best of what was already there now
admittedly the period
the Thatcher government did bring about
transformational change and I was a
supporter of that but I don't think I
sort of woke up in the morning and said
to myself John you've got to play your
part in changing the world and secondly
and I absolutely admit this lots of
people say oh I came into politics to
make the world a better place and a lot
of people probably do the truth is that
when I first aspired to come into
politics
I wanted to serve the cause of number
one I wanted to advance my own prospects
I was an ambitious young chap in a hurry
and I don't think I really had a deep
mission to change the country or the
world making them a better place I had a
generalized commitment to the public
good and I had a very keen preoccupation
with trying to advance the prospects of
jaber Coe now you might say that's very
candidate very religious to me true it
happens we try and pretend that you know
I've got some great idealistic
commitment I think actually my journey
is a very unusual and atypical journey
so many people go from left to right
whereas I've gone from right towards the
left landing in the centre I didn't want
to be a member of another political
party but you know I had long since I
have long since ceased to espouse
conservative views I definitely move
left words there's no dispute about that
and I have become a lot more idealistic
and progressive and preoccupied with
social justice and the evil of global
poverty and the need to reduce
inequality than I ever was as a young
person because who you really are I find
fascinating because you know you you're
one of the most famous public figures in
Britain partly because of brexit partly
because of Prime Minister's Questions
which is watched all over the world and
I think most people to see you and hear
you would think you were you know this
would have Porsche public schoolboy
pillar of the establishment you know the
usual and you're not you're Jewish for a
start pretty sort of lower middle class
straight working-class yeah background
not at all easy comprehensive school
University of Essex I mean are you toss
extent that you were sort of uh have you
deliberately projected an image of
yourself that is posture than you are no
oh no no I haven't done that I mean I
have no recollection of having an acute
unless ins in my youth I can't
absolutely swear that I didn't but I've
absolutely no recollection of doing so I
probably have to ask members of my
family but I'm pretty certain I didn't
my father ran a small business
determinedly but not very successfully
for many years and partly through our
ill health spent the last ten years of
his working life driving a mini cab my
mother was a legal secretary for many
years and she herself comes from
working-class background dad came from a
working-class background we enjoyed very
very modest prosperity in the late
sixties in the beginning of the
seventies but we were certainly never I
think more than lower middle-class no I
think I probably inherit my father's
speaking style my father tended to speak
in paragraphs he strongly deprecated the
split infinitive and the use of the
preposition at the end of a sentence he
always thought that was very wrong so I
think I've just inherited dad speaking
style I know some people will find it
very annoying and other people like it
all I can say to you krishnan is that
I'm authentic
there's nothing contrived about it I
haven't set out to be Pasha than I am
and I haven't set out to misrepresent my
background and to make it less partial
I'm a pretty ordinary bloke so did you
inherit your father's politics as well
is that why you started off on the rise
yes because you talk about your
conversations with him yes you know and
you talk about him as an admirer of
Enoch Powell talking about immigration
and all those sorts of things
he was basically sort of a right-wing
Tory he was I hadn't previously been
interested in politics I've been very
committed to sport I was a junior tennis
competitor and so on but really from the
winter of discontent when the streets
went on swept the sick went on tended
and the dead went on buried it was a
terrible winter of discontent I started
to focus on politics and my teachers
were split between
[Music]
waters of the Callaghan Government and
this was in Finchley in Margaret
Thatcher's constituency and been I
critics of it but none of them as far as
I could tell was a conservative I
thought that this was no way to run a
country the UK had become largely I'm
governor bull the unions exerted far too
much sway and I started to talk about
these things with dad and he rather
reinforced that view and had very strong
views about all of those issues about
the Running of the economy the power of
the unions the importance of the private
sector for the creation of wealth now
you'll say all of that is very work a
day and unexceptionable stuff what was
really significant I suppose and bad for
me and bad for me I took the wrong
course and made a very foolish decision
was that I listen to what Dad said about
Enoch Powell and what did he say well he
said he thought Powell was a
much-maligned man and that he was hugely
bright and a brilliant speaker and that
he'd made a very honest analysis of the
problems of New Commonwealth and
Pakistani immigration Bazaar as I say in
the book absent bass are and appalling
for this Jewish man that this Jewish man
should hold such for his dad genuinely
felt I'm not here to defend my dad my
father passed away 33 years ago and he's
not on trial and he's not being
interviewed but he thought that you
Commonwealth Pakistani immigration had
been less successful than Jewish
immigration and he thought that the
number of migrants coming to the UK
represented a big problem and he had
marred Powell and I with that sort of
intensity of you thought oh let's study
this person and I was attracted and I
stupidly crassly perhaps unforgivably
joined the right-wing conservative
Monday club which was operating on the
fringes of the Conservative Party and
was Pro repatriation a nation of
immigrants and I got involved in that
committee and was Secretary of it for a
period and then what happened was that
my political activist
collided with personal experience I met
people frankly who were anti-semitic and
who didn't necessarily know that I was
Jewish but made anti-semitic remarks on
and then suddenly in a kind of blinding
revelation I thought this is really very
very very unsavory unattractive and
unacceptable did you think you were a
bit of a racist in those days I didn't
think of myself in those terms I
wouldn't have expressed it like that
but there is no doubt that the group
that I joined was racist and I was
associating with racists and I was
signing up to positions that were racist
do I when you look in 20 year old John
Burke I'm absolute I do I think he might
got a racist bone in my body today of
course not no but they did I associate
with racists and was I effectively
guilty of promoting or encouraging
racism the truth is I guess I was and
that's outrageous and disgraceful if I
look back at the 20 year old John Bercow
and the views that I espoused at that
time and the minutes I took I think of
immigration repatriation and race
relations industry subcommittee meetings
of the Monday Club I'm deeply ashamed
it's the worst thing I've ever done in
my life the only plea and mitigation
that I can offer although I hope people
think it is quite a considerable plea
and mitigation is that I was 18 when I
joined 20 when I ceased to be active and
21 when I formally resigned in February
1984 now that is 36 years ago I was 21
when I left I'm 57 today and I think
I've got quite a track record over
period of several years of supporting
racial equality and gender equality and
LGBT equality and the rest so yes I was
terribly terribly terribly wrong and I
deserve to be criticized for that part
of my career and I've been very open
about it in the book but if you believe
in the rehabilitation of offenders Act
presumably you'd be inclined to forgive
me but does it give you a way into
understanding racism prejudice and all
the things that are current
as well because you know as you say when
people are young and foolish they're
young foolish but do you understand why
it took somebody to say anti-semitic
things to you for you to see the wrong
in the racism that you hadn't seen
before because he shouldn't have you
kind of go well that's a bit was very
slow witted and dim about it he
shouldn't have taken that crash with my
personal background to render obvious
what should have been obvious anyways
why did you think you had been sort of
effectively indoctrinated by your dad or
or was it you well ultimately you have
to take responsibility yourself I said
he wouldn't say that I was indoctrinated
by my dad I think I wrongly and stupidly
allowed myself to fall prey to a
powerful speaker and writer but of
course oratory is value neutral it's a
gift or a skill may be partly natural
partly acquired and honed and nurtured
and cultivated and practiced but it is
morally neutral it can be used for good
by for example Martin Luther King or it
can be used for evil for example and
most notably in human history by Hitler
and I should never have fallen under the
sway of power light thinking and I can't
quite explain why I did other than that
I think the
rigor of his thinking and the slight
sense also that he was in his party and
outsider fighting the establishment
seemed to appeal to be now it was a very
misguided view on my part people
fighting the establishment may be
fighting the establishment for good
reason and for a good cause
will they may be fighting against the
establishment for no very good reason
and for no very good calls and looking
back now I didn't think so then but
looking back now Ted Heath was
absolutely right to sack he not Powell
from the shadow cabinet now at the time
I thought poor pal the victim of Heath's
brutality and lack of consideration and
insistence on sticking to a misguided
consensus on immigration to me at the
time Powell was the victim and that was
very much the attitude on the Tauri
right here was this truth teller who was
bravely standing up so the forces of the
Tory and Labour establishments well
establishments can be wrong but they can
also be right and actually the general
view was right that what he was doing
was profoundly dangerous and damaging to
the prospect of decent race relations in
this country and really something of an
abuse of the position of a major public
figure who had the opportunity to get
his voice heard and his messages
listened to by people across the country
did it fanned the flames of racism I'm
thinking I'm doubtedly did and I think
there was evidence subsequently that
there was an increase in the incidence
of racial attacks and I think
politicians do have a very very solemn
responsibility to use language carefully
to treat issues sensitively whereas of
course that speech and others were
incendiary devices and he knew they were
do you think you've been a victim of
snobbery oh yes if it's no furry is very
much a phenomenon in British society I
remember being very amused to be told on
one occasion by a friend of mine that a
conservative member had said to
well when the Labour Party have this
speaker we sort of rather expect that it
will be a working-class chap or a
working-class woman because that sort of
probably the way it's gonna be but when
we the Conservatives have the speaker we
thought rather expect to have gentlemen
the idea of a lady didn't occur to him
we rather expect him a gentleman in the
chair the trouble with burka apart for
anything else is that he's well not to
put too fine a point on it he's annoyed
so that was his attitude I mean this
particular person is no longer in that
you think he was the best you know he
was a very dim-witted individual and
it's probably the best you know that he
could manage it was probably sort of the
level of his understanding of politics
in his attitude to people you know he
was he was both snobbish and pretty
thick but you think it was that what was
it that you do you think it was more
that or could it have been the fact that
you were one of them very much so and
then you deserted them and that maybe
they saw you as a traitor no I think
they hated more than anything well I
think it's very difficult to say exactly
which was you know a bigger factor I
think all of that is part of the mix I
totally accept that krishnan I think
that there has been some snobbery
without a doubt I think there's been
some anti-semitism and you are right a
lot of people stay pretty much in the
same place politically and they are
nervous about suspicious of or even
ranked hostile towards people who don't
do as they do so of all the Prime
Minister's since Thatcher which one
would you say you are now closest to
politically I find that Tony Blair I
think that Tony Blair was the most
successful Prime Minister that is my
view I think Tony Blair was the most
successful Prime Minister and indeed for
that matter in opposition party leader
you know he had to be that first now I
didn't see that then
krishnan at the time that he was leading
in opposition from 1994 to 1997 I was
furiously opposed to him I didn't see
the attraction
I thought the Conservatives should
continue in government looking back with
the benefit of hindsight and looking
back at those different leaders
whom I found most impressive I say
without hesitation I think Tony Blair
was the most impressive Prime Minister
of course you know he lives with the
legacy of Iraq and he's often criticized
for that I should say by the way I'm not
here to defend Tony Blair and he doesn't
need me to defend him I've never felt
that resentment of him on that subject I
suppose if you were persuaded by him to
vote for the Iraq war on the basis of
the presence of weapons of mass
destruction which could be unleashed
within 45 minutes you might well feel
resentful subsequently when it emerged
it transpired that there were no such
weapons I didn't vote for the war for
that reason I voted for the war because
of a decade of continued violation by
Saddam Hussein of UN Security Council
resolutions on the one hand and on
account of his egregious abuse of human
rights of his own people including the
use of chemical weapons against them and
I've never thought that Blair
deliberately misled people I've never
believed that Tony Blair lied the
intelligence was flawed but I still
think it was the right decision but more
widely I think that he undoubtedly was
an extremely effective leader but in
other ways I all Surt ma Gordon Brown
Gordon Brown was not as successful as
Prime Minister partly because of the
circumstances partly perhaps he wasn't
as well qualified to be Prime Minister
as he hoped he would be or as Tony Blair
had been I still think he's an
impressive guy David Cameron I think is
immensely capable he's a very skillful
performer he was not as good in the
chamber as Tony Blair but he was a very
very very accomplished skillful
nimble-footed performer in the chamber
Oney was also a very good platform
speaker I've always felt that David
Cameron's weakness was that he was a
relentlessly tactical rather than
strategic you know he flew by the seat
of his pants he tended to be buoyed by
that he Nate perhaps public school
instills self confidence and he tended
to think that he would always win I mean
you were very honest about sort of sure
you're rather self-centered Moses when
he first came into politic
okay when did you then discover a desire
to change the world or to make the world
a better place when did you discover
your vocation as a politician well I
think really it was only from about 2001
onwards so I'm not proud of it but I'm
just trying to be that's that's four
years into being an MP I know well now I
mean I wanted in general terms the
public good cause really a theme to
those first few years
other than me trying to be an efficient
and effective hard-working diligent
local MP and I did work hard throughout
by 22 years in Parliament but what
caused me to change my mindset and start
to think more widely about the great
public interest and the need for change
I think it was really a couple of things
the first thing that made me think about
change was the issue of gay equality in
either 1998 or 1999 I in common with
most conservative MPs had voted when the
Labour government tried to bring about
an equal age of consent for gays as
compared with heterosexuals against that
I'd voted to retain the statutory
differential so that gay people could
have sex only at the age of 18 when
heterosexuals could have sex at 16 but
as I did so I thought I'm not sure that
this is right this is obviously what the
great majority of conservatives are
doing but it's not entirely obvious to
me why there should be a statutory
differential and I think on that
occasion I heard two conservative
colleagues Sean Woodward who
subsequently defected to the Labour
Party and Elinor lang who is of course
now chairman of ways and means a Senior
Deputy Speaker arguing for equality at
16 I think if I remember rightly they
both spoke in one of the debates and I
was impressed by their speeches but it
was all too sudden for me I hadn't given
it enough thought so I voted with most
of my colleagues against change whilst
being a bit uncomfortable about it and I
decided well I'll go away and think
about this and I spoke to some
teachers and to some church people in my
constituency and I said look is there
any particular reason for this statute
referential and again and again really
the answer came back well not really
it's always been that way but you know
it's more symbolic or totemic than a
very practical value and indeed I
started to think not only was it not of
practical value but it could be of
practical danger and demerit
disadvantage because if people didn't
feel able to be open about their
sexuality and to take advice to protect
their health to have safe sex and so on
you know that was a real risk so I
resolved that I would vote for equality
when the government next brought the
matter back the government was defeated
principally in the House of Lords I
think the first and possibly even the
second time as well when it tried to
change the law that was one issue that
caused me to start to think more
progressively
more creatively slightly more out of the
conservative box if you will the other
issue was global poverty I was appointed
shadow sector estate for international
development in November 2003 by Michael
Howard who had become leader and I held
that post for just under a year and
going to some of the most benign parts
of the world war-torn where people
experienced the most egregious abuses of
human rights where maternal mortality
was high made me think about our
responsibilities as a country to people
less fortunate than us and I ended up
becoming very persuaded of the case for
a sizeable aid budget and I felt that
aid combined with freer trade and fairer
trade trade isn't fair and debt relief
could trigger a great improvement in the
living standards of the poorest people
on the face of the planet and again you
know it just made me a different person
oh you a very emotional man I mean it's
very interesting talking to you because
you wait you know talking about global
poverty you seem to well up we've all
seen you well up in the House of Commons
other interviews about things and it
just it seems as though these things are
very close to the surface that's
probably true yes I think I'm an
emotional person you know sometimes it's
thought to be risky in politics to admit
that because there is this very
traditional British attitude of stiff
upper lip but you've asked me a straight
question and wisely or unwisely I've
answered it and the short answer is yes
I'm quite an emotional person and I do
care about the plight of people who are
less fortunate than I am but do I think
that it's a very important part of a
politician's duty to try to promote
social mobility and to bring about
greater equality I do I mean it relates
to what I'm gonna have to ask you about
the allegations against you as well of
course which to do with your emotions
now there are a couple of people who
have worked with you or for you or in
the same environments as you who have
made allegations about either bullying
or your general behavior you've denied
these and we don't know all the details
so there's no point going into them now
but I mean if you're emotional if you
got a temper as well and do you think
you're prone to being misunderstood I
don't think I'm prone to being
misunderstood I can occasionally become
irascible I can get annoyed from time to
time I don't think more so than very
very very large numbers of people with
whom I've worked over the years if you
ask me you know am i given to sort of
regular rages or outbursts our shelter
not I'm not a shouter no I'm not in the
business of ranting on a regular basis
now I think I've got quite a loud voice
am i an a bit you allow AB solutely not
am i regularly bad-tempered am i flying
off the handle and staring at people and
launching into great rages and so on
absolutely not I think the point that I
would want to make is this I served as
Speaker for just over ten years
I had two people in the speaker's office
of the I think nine or ten in the office
who were with me from the start of my
speakership until the end and for the
last eight and a half years of my
speakership they were in the same posts
speaker secretary and the assistant
secretary there were other people in
that office who worked for me for seven
years for five years for six years etc
in the speaker's office and in my
constituency office I had very very
dedicated committed hard-working loyal
and supportive staff and fundamentally a
warm person and I like people and I'm
appreciative of people who do their best
and work hard and try to help me so what
you think this is happening because I
mean it's stopping you being in the
House of Lords at the moment isn't it
possibly I mean these allocations well
more will you you would be lord Berko by
now well one could speculate as to why
I've not been elevated house laws and
we'll have to see how that goes I mean I
think the reasons and why some people
don't want me to go there and I don't
think by any means it's all due to the
issue that we're now discussing there
are people who very strongly object to
my handling of the brexit process for
example it has ordinarily happened and
we'll have to see what is my answer to
your specific point the vast majority of
people that I worked with in my time as
speaker what either very actively
supportive of what I was trying to do to
deliver reform reform in the chamber
reform in the management of the
parliamentary estate reform in the
development of the role of the speaker
as an ambassador for Parliament visiting
schools colleges universities faith with
voluntary organisations public bodies
and so on all they were people who may
not have been natural enthusiasts for
that but who saw it as their role to
back the speaker in his task there was a
small minority of people with whom I
interacted in my decade at the speaker
who were much less sympathetic who
didn't support my agenda or didn't
support important parts of it
and I had difficult relations with some
of those people now the fact that some
of those working relationships weren't
triumphant successes does not prove for
one moment that there was any bullying
or misconduct involved a working
relationship can fail simply because the
objectives of the parties to that
working relationship are not aligned or
there is a personality clash and the
people concerned just don't get on
particularly well somebody recently said
to me John I think if 70% of your
working relationships ones working
relationships in the course of a career
go well you're not doing badly the great
majority of mine have done and the
simple fact which none of the detractors
can gainsay is that the vast majority of
mine did and when at various times the
media have trolled and contacted people
who used to work for me or friends of
mine they couldn't wait those
journalists to get off the phone they
couldn't wait to get off the phone as
soon as the person concerned said oh yes
I remember working with John Burke a
very well he was great to work with he
was fine he was a good leader or we were
very close colleagues and we have very
warm relations or whatever they weren't
interested in that of course what they
wanted to do what they've always wanted
to do is to find someone who would say
the opposite and yes there have been
people who have said the opposite I deal
with that matter in the book I very
explicitly say in the book that there
were a couple of people whom it was
being brutal were claiming to be bullied
at one has never said so in public and
the other has said so in public and in
each case I deal in the book with those
relationships and I explained what did
happen and what didn't
in one case it was a very
straightforward case of reform versus
tradition reform versus tradition reform
versus tradition I wanted to change
things that person didn't want to do so
on on issue after issue after issue try
as I did and work at that relationship
as I did for 12 months it didn't work
because I wanted to proceed in one
direction and that person perfectly
dedicated public servant had not
adjusted to the fact of me being the
speaker other people in the office had
adjusted and were doing so very
successfully that person hadn't adjusted
and in the end I said to that person
look I'm sorry because you've worked
very hard and I appreciate your
commitment but I'm afraid we are just
too different and our approaches don't
gel and I would like to make a change
and at the time the person concerned and
I remember exactly where we were sitting
in the office when I conducted this
obviously painful and disagreeable
conversation with him leant forward gave
me his hand to shake hands and said I
quite understand mr. speaker now several
years later that person came forward and
said oh well he felt that he'd been ill
treated well I can say only that that's
what he said at the time and I don't
think he was ill treated in any way
shape or form that what honest and
honorable differences of opinion in
relation to the other person
well no such claim has ever been
publicly made but it is suggested that
there is an idea that another person was
badly treated by me well I can say only
that there was another person yes who
left the office and that person left of
her own volition
and the simple fact is as several
witnesses will testify that individual
did have ideas about how to run the
office which she was perfectly entitled
to have but I didn't buy into those
ideas and I said I'm sorry but I've
decided I don't want to make those
changes I'm in favor of change my role
in favor of change for the sake of
change and in fact I steadfastly
defended the jobs of two people in that
office who were extremely capable and
utterly loyal and who remained with me
for the duration so there were two
people who left the speaker's office in
circumstances that have subsequently
caused comment about bullying and in one
case in explicit allegation of it the
first was somebody that I inherited
I didn't appoint but I did my best to
work with that person
the second was appointed by a panel
chaired by a senior clerk which I should
never have allowed to happen
I was stupid about it I allowed myself
to be persuaded that it wasn't something
I needed to do myself to appoint a new
associate oh no mr. speaker you don't
need to appoint door secretary you can
calls an appointment to be made the
proper course would be to allow a panel
chaired by a clerk to proceed with the
selection process and a person was
selected and we worked together for a
period and it became apparent that that
person had a particular view about how
the office should be restructured which
involved getting rid of some very
dedicated and long serving staff who in
the end served me right till the end and
I having reflected on it said no I don't
want that and a small number of months
later after a period in which we carried
on working together but not especially
successfully that person chose to leave
the office what that shows is that to
working relationships didn't work what
that does not show is that there was
anything in any way shape or form by way
of bullying and I will maintain
until my dying day because it has the
advantage of being true that I have
never bullied anyone anywhere at any
time I was elected as a reformer I had a
Democratic mandate to try to deliver
reform and in some cases fortunately
only a minority of cases I came across
people who were very institutionalized
very committed to their own view and
quite convinced that the proper course
was for them not just to have their say
but to have their way and when I said
well no I'm sorry I don't want it done
like that I want it done differently
they didn't like that you've talked
about all the things you did as Speaker
to increase scrutiny to strengthen the
role of back then Champy's but I
wondered also if you will be known for
having actually allowed Parliament to
take over the job of government in
allowing MPs to take over the order
paper which is what happened right at
the end of the whole brexit rao what do
you think is the constitutional
significance of that in the long term
whether it will have a long-term
constitutional significance Kristian I
genuinely don't know and I think it's
too early to say my attitude was we are
in unprecedented times and so my feeling
was we've got to reckon with the new
reality this is a minority government
and I do not believe that I breached any
standing order in the decisions I made I
accept the standing order 24 which
allows for emergency debates with some
level of support for the idea in the
chamber and the agreement the speaker
were never intended to bring about
changes in the law but very importantly
standing order 24 did not preclude that
possibility it did not prohibit it he
did not rule it out it was not
off-limits I did from time to time take
decisions
which involved disregarding all weighing
up and then rejecting the advice of the
clerks
because advisors advise and
decision-makers decide and in the end
the chair has to take responsibility so
I now and again did listen to the advice
of the clerks but then decide to do
things differently that's true but in
relation to the Ben Act which said in
terms there will not be a no deal brexit
will not be a straightforward crash out
of the European Union for the UK unless
Parliament explicitly authorizes it in
allowing that to happen
I was simply taking the attitude let's
see what Parliament wants and as the
speaker is supposed to be the servant of
the house it seems to me that I was
doing the right thing and I have never
had any regrets about it I would do the
same again well it may be one way in
which you changed the British
constitution of very least our final
question as always if you could just
wave a magic wand and change the world
what would you do I'd ensure that no
child was left hungry I think in a world
of Plenty the fact that there are
children all around the world who go
hungry who are malnourished and who in
many cases end up as a result suffering
disease and early death that is a
tragedy and it's an avoidable tragedy
john burkha thank you very much indeed
thank you for sharing your ways to
change the world and talking a little
bit about your your remarkable story I
hope you enjoyed that if you did then
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you can watch all of these interviews on
the Channel 4 News YouTube channel our
producers rachel evans until next time
bye bye
you