Judy: During the 18 months mark
Esper served as secretary of
defense, he clashed at times
with former president trump over
proposals to use the military in
ways Esper thought were
inappropriate. Trump fired Esper
in November 2020, a few days
after trump lost re-election.
I sat down with Esper yesterday
to discuss his experiences,
which he details in a new book,
"A sacred oath: Memoirs of a
secretary of defense during
extraordinary times."
Mark Esper, thank you very much
for joining us in this book. I
think there are so many
questionable, even astonishing
ideas that you write about that
emerged from either former
president trump or the people
around him, that it was hard to
keep track of them all. I wrote
I wrote down firing missiles
from the us into Mexico to go
after the drug cartels, striking
Iran, sending 250,000 U.S.
Troops to the southern border.
How is it that none of these
actually came to happen?
>> Well, I think, Judy, that
there were myself and others in
the cabinet who successfully, at
times either individually or
together, were able to talk the
president and others out of
these ideas, which which we
thought just didn't make sense
and would could end up doing
more harm than good.
>> And I in particular, I mean,
you open the book with June the
first, 2020. This is in the
aftermath of the murder of
George Floyd, when there had
been protests in Washington. And
there's a meeting in the white
house where former president
trump is asking you and others
to do something about it. Tell
us about that particular day,
that meeting.
>> Well, as I recount in the
book, general Miller and I get
called to the white house early
that morning and we report in
and people are already
assembled. And almost
immediately the president
begins, you know, shouting that
he's very irate that the
protests were occurring and
that, you know, so much was
happening. And it was true that
we did have violence taking
place. People were hurt. You
know, park police, national
Guard. And it seemed to be that
violence was breaking out, at
least to him all around the
country as well. And so his
frustration, you know, really
grew to the point where he was
talking about the invocation of
the insurrection act and the
deployment of 10,000 active duty
troops into the streets of the
nation's capital. And it was at
that point in time that I, bill
Barr and with general Miller's
assistance as well, began
pushing back on that notion. And
my view was that this was a law
enforcement problem, that the
that the military, the national
Guard, could support and should
support as needed. But this was
a law enforcement issue, not
certainly not a matter for the
active duty forces to be
involved in.
>> But at the time, the public
didn't know exactly what the
president was asking for. He
also, as you say in the book, in
your opening page, was saying,
why can't you just go out and
shoot the protesters in the
legs? You know, that was around
the time or it was later on that
you and general Milley and
others walked with the president
over across Lafayette square,
stood in front of the the church
there he was holding the bible.
What was going on in your mind
at that time?
>> Look, it was obviously a very
shocking and troubling remark
for the president to suggest
that we shoot protesters, we
shoot Americans in the streets
of the nation's capital. And
needless to say, I and I suspect
others, they were all taken
aback by that notion and
successfully were able to push
back on that and come up with,
you know, a proposal that didn't
call for that. But, you know,
clearly it took hold of us for
the day with you, will, and it
obviously resulted in or led to
the my mistake in terms of
walking across Lafayette park.
And I think general Milley feels
the same way as well.
>> What do you say, mark Esper,
to those who look at what
happened that day, what the
president was suggesting, and
say, you should have spoken up
at that moment and you should
have even resigned your
position.
>> Boy. Look, it's it's a great
comment. And I wrestled with
this constantly about what to
do. And you've got to keep in
mind the context, because it
always matters. It was in the in
the weeks and months leading up
to this that other proposals
were put forward, such as
shooting missiles into Mexico,
the deployment of a quarter
million troops to the border,
possible strikes against
Venezuela. And each of these I
was able with with the help of
others at times to to kind of
push back on. And my view was
that, look, I thought I was
serving the country better by
staying in the job than by
resigning.
And then, of course, I had no
idea who he would put in behind
me. And that was my bigger
concern was would the president
put in an Uber loyalist who
would really carry out these
ideas that he and others were
putting forward?
>> I've seen that some people
have said why you would watch
this president. You had seen
what happened to your
predecessor, James Mattis. Why
did you take the job in the
first place?
>> ]Well, look, I've been
serving my country since the age
of 18 when I went to west point.
Served ten years in the army,
both during war and peace, and
then another 11 years in the
National Guard. I worked on
capitol hill. Look, I believe in
service to country, and I
thought I could make a
difference. And I do think I
made a difference. I think all
the great people I had the honor
of working with the Pentagon
really served their oath
honorably. And and that was my
view is if the nation calls, I
think we should all serve and
look at the bottom. The bottom
line is duty. If good people
don't serve, then you're left
with the bad people. And that's
not what our nation needs,
particularly now in this era of
sides. We need good people to
serve in government, to stay in
government and do the right
thing.
>> But you did you had seen how
he operated as president and you
still went to work for him. And
you stayed with him for 18
months.
>> I was serving the
constitution. I was obeying my
oath. I didn't work necessarily
for the president or for the
party or for a certain
philosophy. My duty, my oath was
to the constitution, hence the
name of my book. And to me,
that's the important thing.
>> You do write in the book,
mark Esper, that you said the
most shocking and troubling
event of the trump presidency
was the, quote, organization and
incitement of the pro-trump mob
that attacked the U.S. Capitol.
As you know, we know he was
impeached for that. Should he
have been convicted, do you
think, by the senate?
>> You know, I'd obviously like
to see the senate have a hearing
and tease that out. But to me,
it was a very troubling event
the moment it was an
insurrection, an attempt to
overturn a free and fair
election and to prevent the
peaceful transfer of power. And
and it was right to be impeached
and he likely would have been
convicted. I just don't know.
But I'd want to see that trial
play out.
>> Had you voted for him in
2016?
>> Yes, I did. [0.3s]
>> And do you think he's
qualified? He is clearly
thinking about running again. Is
he qualified to be president
again?
>> I hope.
I hope he doesn't run for
president in my view that any
candidate for president from
either party, by the way, should
put country over self. They have
to have, you know, a level of
integrity and principle that
will carry them forward. They've
got to be willing to reach
across the aisle and work with
others. And president trump just
doesn't meet those marks for me.
>> I do want to read you, mark
Esper, some of what president
trump has said in the last 24
hours and some of your comments
have come out. He has said,
quote, he was you were a
lightweight, a figurehead. He
said mark Esper was weak,
totally ineffective. He said he
would do anything I wanted.
>> Well, clearly, I didn't do
anything he wanted. And if you
recall, I think another author
published a story where
president trump's head of
personnel put forward a two page
memo outlining, outlining all
the reasons why I should be
fired, because I didn't agree
with the president or I disagree
with him and push back. And
look, that's the bottom line is
I would expect no less from the
president to do some degree of
name calling and badmouthing.
But that's fine. Look, people
make their own decisions about
about him, about me and and
about who's telling the truth.
And look, what I what I'm trying
to do is tell an important story
for the American people, for
history about a very tumultuous
and consequential time in our
nation. And that's the purpose
behind me writing this book.
>> Mark Esper the book is a
sacred oath memoirs of a
secretary of defense during
extraordinary times. Thank you
very much.