rumor has it three enticing words that
almost never lead to anything good the
latest example ilia shapiro conservative
lawyer and author spread a rumor about
supreme court justice samuel alito have
a listen
i heard a rumor that justice toledo and
his family have been taken to an
undisclosed location and uh he's the
author of this of this leaked draft i've
heard that justice alito has been taken
to an undisclosed location with his
family
conservatives lost their minds
right-wing media was flooded with
headlines that just
ran with it as if it was fact because i
guess some conservative talking head
talked about it senator ted cruz even
shared an article from townhall.com that
cites an article from breitbart that
cites ilia shapiro's rumor no apologies
from cruz for that but that is the right
wing echo chamber in a nutshell and it's
baseless it's all baseless by the way
even if justice alito had been moved to
an undisclosed location for his safety
it wouldn't necessarily mean there were
actual threats against him following his
draft opinion that would overturn roe v
wade it might just be that alito or
people around him are being cautious
but again completely unverified rumor
being cautious think about being
cautious elia shapiro wasn't cautious on
monday he confirmed that he couldn't
confirm a thing about his claim
he told politico quote he actually
wasn't sure if what he said was true
quote i don't have any non-public
sources he said there's a quote for you
i don't have any non-public sources i
forget where i saw the rumor on twitter
he continued or somebody told me i don't
know
i don't know you'd expect a conservative
legal scholar to have some semblance of
responsibility when it comes to
spreading pretty serious high-profile
claims then again this is the man who
georgetown university put on leave from
his administrative post there after he
tweeted in january that thanks to joe
biden we were going to get a quote a
lesser black woman on the supreme court
so that's who the conservative source is
for their news
the reason why shapiro's rumor is so
important is that his unbacked claim has
been wedged into so many discussions
about the peaceful abortion rights
protests that we've seen in recent days
outside the homes of a number of supreme
court justices protests took place
outside samuel alito's home in virginia
on monday they followed protests outside
justice kavanaugh and chief justice
roberts's homes in the dc area over the
weekend
the right keeps suggesting these
demonstrations are dangerous even though
there's no evidence of any violence or
threats so far the organizers say
they're nothing more than people
expressing
genuine heartfelt outrage that the court
might strip the rights of millions of
women in america
some point to the irony of justices
demanding privacy while about to rule
against the right to privacy in the
context of abortion still
are these protests the best move for
liberals and the left should the homes
of public figures where their families
and kids live be off limits and how
might liberals in the left react if
right wingers showed up at the home of
say justice sotomayor
to protest an opinion of hers
or is context in this case everything
with me now to discuss all of this and
more michelle goldberg new york times
columnist and britney patnick cunningham
activist and host of the undistracted
podcast both are msnbc political
analysts and friends of the show thank
you both for joining me michelle let me
start with you your
your pro-choice
how do you feel about these pro-choice
protests
outside the homes of these three
conservative justices
um you know i feel ambivalent i think
that you know look i think there's a
huge amount of hypocrisy and frankly
whining you saw susan collins just call
the police because somebody had chalked
something on the sidewalk near her house
here's the thing that does give me pause
most of the jurisprudence um on
protesting outside someone's home is
because of how often the anti-abortion
movement has targeted abortion providers
i mean that's partly why the right
stance on this is so hypocritical but i
also think that there is some value in
sort of recognizing a norm against doing
this given how often it's used
specifically against abortion providers
and then more recently during the covet
pandemic outside the homes of public
health officials
brittany do you agree with that
so i have a slightly different take and
as you said before many i do think that
context matters deeply here specifically
the context of being a public official
look there are nine folks who get to sit
on that bench and they get to make
decisions about all of us and in
particular five of them more of them are
making decisions about my ability to
have autonomy over my body obviously the
irony of the right to privacy is
a thread that goes throughout this whole
thing but i also recognize that abortion
providers are not people who were
appointed and confirmed by the u.s
senate and it's different when we are
talking about official public servants i
also want us to recognize what protest
is in the first place it is designed to
create discomfort i think that it has
been fascinating watching folks from the
right and also from the left denounce
this kind of behavior as if a protest is
supposed to make us comfortable the
point is to create discomfort the point
as dr king talked about in his letter
from a birmingham jail was to create the
crisis that would force powers that be
to the negotiating table civility order
politeness these are vestiges of white
supremacy culture that frankly have held
us back for too long
brittany you make a good point
distinguishing between abortion
providers and public officials but then
just to take that argument to the next
you know the logical conclusion i
mentioned sotomayor in the intro would
you then be okay
uh with conservatives turning up at
justice sotomayor's house because they
didn't like an opinion of hers which
they believed was stripping them of
their rights
i mean to be clear personally i wouldn't
love it and i do think that we have to
draw a distinction between folks who are
protesting for freedom and democracy
people who are trying to protect the the
privacy and the rights of the most
marginalized and people who are showing
up to protest oh i don't know the right
to not wear masks and put other people
in in harm's way right there's a
difference between those who are
protesting for the rights of the
marginalized and those who are
complaining about their inability to
harm others and be exclusive but i also
recognize that sonia sotomayor probably
understood the ask that was being made
of her when she stood up to decide to
take on uh this important work and we
also recognize that supreme court
justices have additional access to
security measures that the rest of us as
private citizens do not so would i love
it no but do i think that justice
sotomayor probably understood that this
comes with the territory and that within
reason that is to be expected i think
that's probably true
so michelle just pick it up on britney's
point on coming with the territory and
public officials you made a good point
that one of the reasons the
jurisprudence around this it comes from
people protesting at abortion clinics
abortion providers homes we know that
abortion has been killed uh in the past
but couldn't that also be used in
reverse couldn't a protester say to you
michelle well it's because they did i
know we're into like what about ism and
who started it territory but this
argument that
if republicans are doing it anyways
because i hear a lot of people saying
well what happens when republicans turn
up well republicans already turned up at
jocelyn benson's house in michigan with
guns
after the election to protest the
michigan confirmation they already
turned up outside the houses of uh
school board members in maine in florida
and multiple other states so
what would you say to an activist who
said you complete michelle you you're
100 right but you know it's already
happening so why shouldn't there be some
parity why shouldn't there be a level
playing
field would say a couple of things i
would say one if you think it's you know
sort of not a
good and useful tactic when they do it
than saying why can't we do it too or
it's okay when we do it or what about is
an argument that's not going to be
convincing to anyone who doesn't share
all of your preconceptions i also sort
of think that the very fact that we're
doing this segment right that the tactic
itself has become the locus of
controversy rather than this extremely
outrageous um
decision that's going to strip women of
you know constitutional rights that most
of us have grown up taking taking
someone for granted
i think is the sign of
a tactic that is maybe
backfiring i mean look i don't really
want to concern troll these people i
don't think it's the biggest deal one
way or the other um you know i live in
brooklyn
the reason that i know where chuck
schumer lives is because of the constant
protests outside of his apartment
building
i just i do think that we should be
cognizant of
the way that protesting outside of you
know private homes specifically is far
more often used to intimidate people who
the right doesn't like and you're right
that they're not going to stop doing it
just because progressives
hesitate but i nevertheless think it
makes it harder to even make the
argument for that as a norm if we say
that it's okay when we do it
so brittany uh michelle made a good
point about we're talking about the
tactic and it's not just us talking
about the tactic democrats are also
talking about the tactic
gen saki white house press secretary
said on monday and let me read you the
quote potus strongly believes in the
constitutional right to protest but that
should never include violence threats or
vandalism they have to be able to do
their jobs without concern for personal
safety was that an important was that an
important statement to make as things
may get heated or is that democrats
feeding into a right-wing narrative that
the protests are dangerous a lawless mob
is ted cruz put it
i absolutely think it's feeding into an
incorrect and thus far unproven
narrative that there's been violence and
threats uh and more at these protests
just showing up at somebody's house to
make your voice heard a public
official's house does not inherently
imply a threat of violence i think what
we have to recognize is that it's easy
to paint the protesters themselves and
lay the blame at the protester's feat
for changing the conversation and
focusing us on a tactic but it's much
harder even though it's much more true
to recognize that america has
consistently prioritized order over
justice this is the reason why we're out
here in the first place dr king would
often chastise
leaders civic leaders who would come to
him and ask him to calm down the black
community because he would say until you
are concerned with the actual source of
their frustration until you are
concerning yourselves with why people
are protesting in the first place i'm
not going to go out and demean the
people on my side and frankly i wish the
democratic party would do the same when
this decision was leaked i got texts
emails phone calls and more from the
democratic party asking for my donation
so if you can use my rage to fundraise
you can certainly understand when i use
my rage to protest
but what but what about michelle's point
a moment ago that people are not talking
about the substance of the decision
because they're instead debating the
tactic
absolutely but i'm saying that that's
not the fault of the protester that's
the fault of a white supremacist culture
in america that continues to prioritize
politeness where protest has actually
got to be the name of the game it is
very very easy to put the blame on the
most marginalized people and to say that
we are in the wrong however there is an
opportunity for us to look at systems
and stop letting systems off the hook
where it's easier to to put the blame on
individuals so i understand that notion
but i think that we have to look beyond
the individual to the systems that have
pushed people to this point
michelle these protests led on monday to
the senate unanimously passing
legislation really fast it's funny how
fast the senate can move when it wants
to that would increase security for
supreme court justices the bills headed
to the house next you wrote a piece last
week titled the death of roe is going to
tear america apart and you write the
demise of roe will exacerbate america's
antagonisms
uh from who you've spoken to the
reporting you've done do you get the
sense that the climate in america
especially if if roe is in fact
overturned that things are going to
become
more hostile more polarized more violent
even dare i say
um i think that there's
very little question that things will
become more hostile and polarized in
part because
a lot of states are passing laws that
seek to go beyond their own borders you
know there's a proposal not a law but a
proposal in missouri that would allow
missourians to sue people in other
states who help
people from missouri get abortions
in texas you can technically
be extradited to texas if you send
someone in texas abortion pills um
connecticut meanwhile has passed it has
just passed the opposite sort of law a
law to protect people in connecticut
from legal retribution from other states
if they help um
women get abortions in connecticut or
perform abortions in connecticut and so
you're going to have this kind of
situation that you haven't according to
one of the legal scholars i spoke to had
really since the fugitive slave laws
that where you have these radically
different legal regimes in different
states and these sort of lawsuits and
questions of jurisdiction and you know
people
i mean just imagine what happens when
you know texas tries to extradite
someone from a blue state you know i
just i wrote on the piece like you think
that we hate each other now wait till we
see that sort of thing
indeed last very quick question to you
britney if we're out of time you've made
a very eloquent quest today about it
goes with the territories public
officials but just in terms of private
settings last quick question democratic
mayor of boston who is not white
michelle wu new mayor progressive
she had the boston city council adopt
her resolution that restricts the hours
that protesters can hold demonstrations
at private residences because she had
anti-vaxxers with loudspeakers
protesting outside of house for weeks at
seven o'clock in the morning would you
sympathize with her would you say it
goes with the terrain
i certainly sympathize with her i also
recognize some some of this goes with
the terrain however and this is why i
always say context deeply matters
when anti-vaccines are out there without
masks on during a global pandemic that
is a public health crisis so all of
those folks that are living on that
block all of the people walking up and
down that street who are trying to take
their kids to school there is a
different set of circumstances that that
mayor is dealing with i don't believe
that there should be a car lodge law
created about that but i do recognize
once again that context should always
matter here and ultimately if we're
talking about violence and we are
talking about a supreme court that is
willing to remove my control over my own
body and allow some states to put me in
jail if i exercise that right that is
the violence that we should always be
discussing
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