okay so I'm speaking with her Orin Amity
and you may remember that dr. Emma T had
invited me a while back to speak at
Ryerson University on a Saturday and
that's been a rather popular YouTube
video and he's been defending me and
making comments about free speech on the
Ontario Psychological Association list
sir that's correct if I got the details
right yeah well maybe you could tell
everybody what's been happening okay
sure so back in November one of our
members that won't put out her name but
she wrote a piece where she basically I
would say what I wrote she basically
said that you shouldn't have a forum for
discussing what you were supposed to
discuss and that was the talk that you
were going to have by the University of
Toronto the debate right the debate
exactly and so she wrote a piece and put
online and she posted to the listserv
and I essentially wrote in my email to
the listserv I've written a number of
comments about this and mostly I've been
saying every time one of your stories
comes up or another similar story comes
up I'm posting it they're saying look
this is what's going on this is not some
mad rambling this is a legitimate
concern about ideology run amok and
either I get met by silence or I get
people you know asking me why I'm so
angry or why I'm taking so personally or
I get people email me back channel will
see older people most of the older
psychologists who say we support you
completely over afraid to say anything
because of the consequences and what do
you think their what consequences do you
think they're afraid of that I don't
know I mean I some of them work with
these colleagues others may be trying to
get professorships they're trying to get
tenure and they're afraid that these
people who do a hold
you know positions in artha in academia
could hold them down I think that right
answer it's a perverse effect of the
tenure system because it tends to
silence people before they have tenure
and so and of course they practice being
silent and by the time they do have
tenure if you practice being silent for
eight or ten years then or six years for
that matter then it's going to be pretty
hard to break that habit so so what so
what are they objecting to
regards to your postings so whenever I
post something it starts off pretty
neutrally and I've written a long
message to the Ontario Psychological
Association I sent to the president I
asked him to read it to them they are
convening or they had convened a meeting
to deal with this issue and it was very
very long and I said I have not actually
done anything wrong I post links to
stories such as yours at the last Friday
one annex master and then somebody it
goes one of two ways either somebody
will impugn my character or my motives
recently somebody had implied that your
message is full of hate
they actually use that word and someone
was hate in his heart you know so and by
extension myself or the elastic question
and I will address it but good for the
most part there mischaracterizing one in
skating and so I'll simply say look I
did not say that show me where I said
that and more often than not they're not
taking on any specific issue it just be
the theme because on the OPA apparently
if you're on one side of an issue it's
okay if you occupy a different position
they won't accept it and so what what do
you think is going to happen and what
have people like you said they've
convened in a so-called emergency
meeting about this issue and right so do
you have any idea why it's an emergency
and and and what what they're planning
to do well I think they consider an
emergency because one of the board
members she's the one who wrote that
piece saying that you shouldn't have
this debate and I she took umbrage at a
post I wrote where you know she's from
Boise and you know I don't say this like
I'm not being facetious and she annoys
me and I never see for you instituted
this studies in education for those of
you who don't know and it's you might if
you were feeling charitable you would
recall it regarding ideologically
possessed right so so she's from a lazy
and she's the one who wrote the piece
and then somebody else from always he
wrote was with anybody any reasonable
person would say it was a fair comment
which she was crazy was trying to say
look can we all just be a bit more to
life in our tone more respectful and
this is by the point that we should all
aspire to which I don't disagree with
but the problem is she's also from a
lazy and there's a sub
to the message which is basically this
message is directed at me so what I did
was I wrote and by the way she posted
this after the president had already
shut down the discussion as soon as he
shuts it down
eirick you know I retract I'm not going
to say anything but the two other people
put postings on and they know directly
you know basically like I said the same
day they mischaracterize me and they
look main try to make me look bad and so
I spoke out and in one of my pieces I
said to her if you really believe in
what you're saying
I said please make sure you apply this
to the people who are on the other side
the ones who are calling to shut down
this discussion I said I know you say
did the president of the OPA shut down
the discussion what exactly does that
mean how does he I believe how does he
do that and why did he do it well he
sends out an email and says please this
is getting a bit out of hand will you
please not talk about this that's about
the extent of it and reasonable people
will refrain I shouldn't say reasonable
let's say people are try not to cause
conflict we'll we'll stop posting in
which I have done and their concern is I
think that the tone gets out of hand and
again I don't think there's any tone the
worst you can say about my tone is it's
blunt
there's no name-calling it's literally
every single time I say show me where I
said this you know or if you eat yo your
mischaracterizing that or I say your
argument is irrational victorious it's
irrelevant basically you know don't
appeal to emotion we're dealing with
facts here let's deal with them and you
know and if you're on do you have any
examples of the sort of things that
you've posted that you could really
share with us certainly so in one of the
posting so it's woman who again posted
something that seemed reasonable I
basically said to her I said something
I'll just read a couple paragraphs some
members might find my direct rational
logical and fact-based
backspacing messages not only with
respect to the issues themselves but
also with respect to claims made by
those who disagree with me for instance
when I respectfully state
please show me where I staggered is this
to be rude offensive or inappropriate
which to me is a gross misuse of such
term however some of those same people
have directly staged or implied that I
am a misogynist a transpose a bigoted
hateful reprehensible unreasonable and
unwilling or unable to engage in
respectful discourse the next step is
where I got where things got heated I
said moreover and I mentioned the year
the colleague I alluded to a few minutes
ago
explicitly stated honestly serve in
November that she did not believe that
Jordan Pederson should have been given a
forum to discuss what any reasonable
person would agree is far from an
unequivocal issue she posted a link I
posted to an online article she co-wrote
and this is critical that stated her
reasons for what most objective people
should find a concern and call for
censorship of not only non-lethal ideas
but also scientific investigation and
discussion as well as civil debate about
poorly conceptualized and worded
legislation that could potentially cause
unforeseen harm I wrote that and her
response was she actually posted a
response and I am nurture Merkel quite
some time enemies Rita she posted or an
amicus I have just as much right to
express my opinion as anyone else I
already put you on notice one but I will
say it again please leave me alone
that's what I think led to the emergency
meeting and you know look at the context
I have every right I have just as much
right to express my opinion as any well
I agree with that but why would she be
calling for other people not to have
that same right this Harper C is
astounding and so we are going to happen
I really don't know they may ask me to
you know to lead the OPA they may ask me
to leave the listserv I wanted to be OPA
strong its advocate begs
you know I every time I'm in the media I
will mention the work that they do they
do a lot of extra work including the
presence of an ROI he's not excellent
work for homelessness and for promoting
psychology so the worst they can do is
is try to pick me out I know that this
member in question was trying to enact
something against me some kind of
consensual a more formal censure it
never happened aside for public review
of Honor on what grounds precisely I
mean you read some of the things that
you written I mean why is it that you're
being targeted well first for an
emergency meeting which seems a bit like
overkill but perhaps it isn't but what
is it that there what is it that they
have on you so to speak that would
result in in censoring of that sort
uh they literally have nothing because
I've not called anybody names you know
even when I called a member immature I
didn't name them at all so the worst
they can say is a tone might become a
bit hostile but this is what worries me
I again I might be forceful I might be
blunt I might be repetitive and they're
both but I stick to the fact this is a
and right and the problem is those facts
on the wrong side of their ideology and
that's what's propelling them and
telling them and the other thing is that
as I mentioned iev sees concrete dozens
of complaints from members who this is
what is incredible who are basically
saying that they do not want they can't
tolerate the distress that comes along
with knowing that I'm writing emails to
a listserv and that they might you know
give up their membership this is the
kind of video that's going on and again
if you look at my post and I've written
to the OPA and every time someone
criticizes me I specifically write
show me one thing that I've written
that's inappropriate or offensive and no
one's ever felt and they can't can you
have a record of all these postings I
presume I have them all yet and there
are is there anything in them that you
would be I mean that you've written that
you would be unwilling to make public
assuming that you could get rid of names
and so on that might identify people is
there anything that would make you
uncomfortable about revealing publicly
the only thing I'd be concerned about is
it's making sure that we're not
violating some ethical code you know
which I get to be portraying the
psychology er psychologist and a
negative light I don't know if this
qualifies with that I think this is been
having an honest discussion about
personal bias I you know ideally you
would only be I would suspect
responsible for portraying psychology in
a negative light if your portrayal was
unfounded from a factual perspective I I
would presume I mean that the other
things I'm reasonable leeway in a in a
in a policy of that sort although the
problem is those things are subject to
interpretation right and that's my
concern is that interpretation I will
seek legal counsel I don't know if our
coverage come
why for such a situation but I will ask
a lawyer we have no insurance for and
see if this would lead counsel that is
what's happened to you if anything as a
consequence for hosting me at Ryerson I
mean that got a lot of attention the
only consequence is that people have
been thanking me for being someone who's
you know standing out and saying here
are standing up is saying we need to
have this discussion nothing so far
come on and that's it you now the thing
is my next contract is coming due that's
a Ryerson on a special lecture I've been
teaching it for fifteen years I always
get to the High Court of topsail well
over 160 courses at high universities
excellent reviews and if I find this
term that the first time ever I don't
get this position I apply for that's the
consequence we will find out I don't
think that they would do that like a
give a pretty strong Union but I don't
have tenure as we're talking about it I
don't have a secure position and right
now I've got a very busy clinical
practice but to stop teaching to be nuts
to be able to communicate with students
who want to learn who want to you know
learn about critical thinking being
motivated to challenge ideas you have
that big you know a horrible consequence
yeah well there's always YouTube you
know I mean other right of what's what's
facing you but you know it is certainly
possible if you've got something to say
that that people need to hear and that
actually constitutes reasonable quality
education that in in a I would not say
precisely in a pinch but it certainly is
an alternative and you have full control
over that I'll be very interesting to
see what happens with your with your
contract renewal and we can certainly
have another talk at that time whether
it goes badly or whether it goes well
either way so what do you think is going
to happen to you what do you think is
going to happen to you overall as a
consequence of this what are you afraid
of if anything I mean the worst that
could happen is that somehow the call is
decides that this is you know this
warrants some kind of heavy sanctions
that would be you know that's somehow I
lost my registration over this right you
can see if the College of psychologists
got involved in Ontario rather than just
the Ontario Psychological Association
difficult for everyone he's listing the
college is the body that regulates
clinical cycle clinical psychologists
licensure in Ontario and to have them
make any action against one of their one
of the one of the licensed psychologists
in Ontario that can be a very very
serious thing that was definitely
something that worried me well it still
worries me to some degree but certainly
worried me a lot back in October in
November when when the remote was more
negative when the university was
responding negatively for example to
what I was doing and sending me those
warning letters we saw or nothing
nothing has come of that but yeah I mean
and that's the only real document yes it
is and you know and practically speaking
let's say you know the Ontario
Psychological Association risk sir the
OPA listserv a lot of people send out
referrals and so if I'm qualified to
deal with one of the cases that they
send out to you can be guaranteed that
certain people will not pass a referral
my way I'm my practice busy enough as it
is but you know I would give potential
consequent this is why other people
might not want to speak out you know and
again if I'm applying well it is it is
this sort of thing that that is why
people don't want to speak out and it
also I mean I get letters hoards of
letters dozens of letters from people
who say exactly doubt that they're
afraid to speak their mind students and
students and people from all other walks
of life were afraid to speak their mind
because they're targeted by by people
who have censorship on their mind and
malice in their hearts I would say and
who are willing to use whatever means
necessary to intimidate people whose
opinions they don't agree with so
exactly it's really not good and the
thing is though this is what's worrying
me is that the the Opa Opa and what i
can tell from the comments that people
don't see what you're saying i mean i
think they think you're being hyperbolic
reactionary you know the case show me
one case and now that wasn't sitting as
they always apply it's the transgender
issue and i say please try to see it a
different level it's not just to put
transgenders you guys just the other day
that was a context under which happened
well the actual issue look if this was
about preferred pronouns it would have
died out in about a week and it hasn't
died out at all
quite the conch
and everyone with any sense knows
perfectly well that this is about far
more than and preferred pronouns that
just happened to be the issue do you or
so to speak and yes but but I have to
say though that the most recent my
posted be the talks of that you had on
Friday at McMaster University yeah where
they you know shamefully shut you down
you weren't able to speak when I posted
that you know somebody wrote me and
again and it may be virtually privately
and then publicly on the listserv asked
me about a while and he just stays
dating they are focusing on that yeah
even though we conclude his a deeper
issue this is the rigidity with which
way that they're seeing we already a
react a reaction the reaction why won't
he just say they to viewing what
happened at McMaster University is a
little bit on the peculiar side I might
say so you know it's what do they say
swallowing a camel well straining at a
nap I think that's how that saying goes
so all right well so is there anything
else that you wanted to talk about
tonight or is that does that basically
cover your concerns and describe what's
been happening to you reasonably well I
think it does I mean and I'll look into
it and see well what I'm able to maybe
post publicly so that people can see
what kind of discussions are being had
1801 per day name's Alyssa simply be no
this is this is the manner in which were
were communicating might manage to that
would be that people can judge for
themselves right whatever you know
because at the moment it's sort of
he-said she-said which is not a great
way time een it's not like I mean
certainly I'm listening to what you say
and believe that you're portraying it
accurately but it's much better for
people to be able to make that judgment
themselves so that would be that would
be a useful thing to do assuming that
you can do it without compromising
yourself or anyone else in any
unreasonable manner but I also don't
think it's unreasonable to make things
like this public because well if you
can't make something public you really
have to wonder what's going on you know
is right so if there's a restriction
against sharing what's been happening on
what's more or less a public more or
less a public
Arum i know that it's part of the
ontario Psychological Association but
it's not exactly private communication
and if you're going if you're going to
get in trouble for what you're posting
and unreasonable it would be useful for
people to be able to see that but you
can decide that so right well but I do
if I story short if I can say one more
thing just rum because I do want to be
fair to a fan I mean as it was earlier
his concern is that it might be
violating you know some Opa Opa is
hosted by the APA the American
Psychological Association listserv for
whatever reason and he's concerned I
know that it might be violating that so
the shutting things down I have no
problem with that but he's worried about
that reason if the it's the legacy
message coming from the other members
which is essentially they themself are
saying that shut it down because we
don't want to hear it and I think I'm
doing this to again - arrogant or
forceful but again that's not the real
reason the real reason is that they
don't like what I have to say and but
again I understand the sensible reason
for which they're you know they're
they're shutting down the discussion I
just wanna make sure I'm clear on that
not I don't wanna misrepresent that
that's what they're saying
yeah yeah well I mean it's hard it's
hard to know what to say about that I
mean I appreciate appreciate what you're
saying about it I mean still seems to me
that the whole point of a listserv is so
that people can communicate their ideas
and I do believe that we're entering an
age where forceful discussion is going
to be regarded as somehow oppresses and
violent and the problem is it's very
difficult to discuss anything of
importance without a certain amount of
forcefulness which you know is also
directness and bluntness and speech
that's to the point and we certainly
don't want to interfere with that and
otherwise right well for obvious reasons
for obvious reasons all right well
thanks very much for talking about this
and I guess I'll know we'll know very
soon exactly how this went and maybe I
can talk to you again when we find out
now about they give you an update to
find out what what they decide