What I want to do is I want to understand
your perspective of your belief and what makes it truth.
It's because I...
You can say that I'm wrong, it's fine for me.
Right now, I'm not saying you're right or wrong.
Right now, I'm trying to understand your concept of your belief.
I can say that I don't have a belief like a normal of you all.....
Does she believe in God?
Yeah, she is believing something which is superpower.
-Do you agree? -Are you a spiritualist?
Pardon?
Are you a spiritualist?
No, it couldn't be like a spirit, I believe in the universe.
Believe the universe is God?
Yeah, if you ganna with God, it can be God.
No, I'm just trying to understand.
I don't quite like a name in what I believe.
No, but to understand the type of God you believe,
is there a certain people who believe everything in the universe?
I don't believe in a God.
You called it a God, I call universe.
Okay, so it's like pantheism?
Yeah, kind of.
-It does have a name then. -Yes.
The reason I asked you is-
I think every single person needs to put aside...
For example, if I believe in the universe, it's pantheism.
If I believe in God, Christian or Muslim or whatever-
Why do you believe in pantheism? What is the reason?
What is it that's a strong point in pantheism
that makes you believe that the universe is God?
The thing is, I don't believe in the universe as God,
because I don't believe there exists a God.
So what do you think the universe is? Do you think it existed by itself?
It could be.
Or it could be like a higher....
You know scientists say that the universe is nearly 14 billion years old?
Yes.
That means it started somewhere.
It has age, which means it has a beginning.
Anything that begins to exist must have a cause.
Okay. So you're calling the cause God?
Well, if you want to call it God, that's fine.
If you don't want to call it God, you can call it super being.
But the question is not about the name.
The question right now is whether the universe is contingent on the cause
or is it self-sufficient and-
Self-existing, yeah.
Self-existing, what does that mean?
When you say self-existing, that means it must have always existed.
-So for- -One second.
I don't mean to hijack your next question, but I just want to get to the point
rather than talking a lot of time, because we can be here all day otherwise.
What I want to do is I want to understand
your perspective of your belief and what makes it truth.
It's because I...
You can say that I'm wrong, it's fine for me.
Right now, I'm not saying you're right or wrong.
Right now, I'm trying to understand your concept of your belief.
I can say that I don't have a belief like a normal of you all.
You do believe that the universe began to exist at some point.
Do you believe the universe is contingent on some external power to the universe?
For example, if I asked you,
can someone who begins to exist bring himself or herself into existence,
you will say no,
because they never existed in the first place
and they cannot exist by themself.
So there must be an external agent to bring that into existence.
-Do you understand? -Yeah.
Now, what was that external agent that brought the universe into existence?
Because we have already confirmed that the universe began to exist at some point.
You're asking about my opinion?
Yeah, I want to know, where do you think it came from?
From somewhere in the universe.
But the universe wasn't there, remember?
You're talking about the beginning of the universe.
So you can call it God, I call it universe, it's the same thing.
You can ask that question,
it's a good question which many people ask.
We believe that God did not begin to exist.
We believe God is self-sufficient,
eternal, immortal, all-knowing, all-powerful.
These are the attributes of God, what defines Him as God.
Unlike the universe.
You don't think the universe has its own mind, do you?
Okay.
Do you or do you not?
The own mind?
No, do you think it has a mind to think, to rationalize?
No, I don't think so.
It's more like a...
Okay, let me ask you.
The rock is part of the universe.
-Do you think the rock can think? -No, obviously not.
Now, let's go to the moon.
-Can the moon think? -No. It's because-
Let's go bigger. The sun, does it have consciousness?
It's because I'm calling universe in what I believe.
I'm not saying that it's a rational power.
I'm just saying everything that I just [inaudible 00:04:32],
the sky and what it is and everything.
But I'm basing this cause and effect-
But I don't actually [inaudible 00:04:40] it would be like a cause and effect
in a rational being.
Cause and effect is from logic, rationality, and science.
Yeah, but-
Science uses cause and effect.
Yes, it does.
So I'm using the same technique, the same methodology,
which logicians and scientists use,
and that is something begins to exist, then it must have a cause.
You know, a bit of philosophy,
they say that there's an existence which is necessary,
and there is existence which is contingent,
contingent meaning it depends on external-
I know what contingent means.
No, for the sake of audience, who might not be as clever as you.
And I'm not saying they're dumb, but philosophy is not for everyone.
These words, some people might hear first time.
When I heard it first time, I had to ask someone, "What does it mean?"
So contingent just means dependent.
We know that the necessary being is never dependent,
whereas the contingent being is always dependent.
So if the universe is not necessary, that means it doesn't have to be as it is,
then it is contingent on something.
Sorry about the noise.
-It's [inaudible 00:05:57]. -Yeah, I [inaudible 00:05:57].
So what I'm saying is that, that's the reason I said,
because the universe cannot create itself, it cannot think for itself,
it cannot exist by itself.
So the question is it must have come into existence
by someone and from someone.
Now the question is, who or what is this someone Or somebody.
-In my opinion? -It might be?
-In my opinion? -Yeah, in your opinion.
What's your opinion on this?
As long as you believe that the universe is contingent
and it's not a necessary thing, then it logically follows
that you should believe that something caused the universe.
It's a logical deduction.
I don't have an answer there. [inaudible 00:06:49].
Let me give you two options,
which is what we can break it down in the simplest form.
Either the universe came from something or nothing.
Which is more probable, or logical?
-Nothing. -Nothing? Really?
In my opinion.
That's fine, that's fine. If she says nothing, that's fine.
Let me ask you, does nothing exist?
Nothing exist?.
But does it exist though?
No, [inaudible 00:07:19]-
Sorry, was that a no?
No, what do you want to prove? I don't understand the question.
-Do you exist? -Obviously.
You're something, you're not nothing, right?
Now, the question is, does nothing exist?
Maybe. No.
No.
If something that doesn't even exist,
how can it bring about something that does exist like the universe?
So you're saying that something exists, but...
You're getting there.
The only alternative is something. It cannot be nothing.
Nothing doesn't even exist.
Whether I think she's thinking like the universe...
Do you think that it comes from nothing or it make existing itself?
That's what I'm asking.
We've already come that because it's contingent,
then we know it doesn't exist by itself, because it's contingent.
Okay, so in your point, God created everything in this Universe, is right?
Don't jump the gun yet.
We haven't gone to God yet.
We are only trying to logically understand whether there is something out there
other than the universe which brought the universe into existence.
You see what I mean?
Now, we have ruled out nothing.
We have ruled out that the universe created itself
or the universe caused itself.
The only alternative that we have left is a something.
Now, we have to understand this something.
Does this something exist by itself, or was it itself caused by something else?
The chain continues,
because if that something is contingent on someone else,
then we can rule out that this something is independent and self-sufficient.
So ultimately, this cannot go on. It has to stop somewhere.
There is something called...
What is it called in science where it doesn't go on?
-Infinity. -Yeah, infinity.
[inaudible 00:09:17].
Alright, tell Pavlo he can come in if he wants to.
Pavlo, is that how you invite yourself in?
Sir, do you want to come?
That's fine, that's fine.
I think Pavlo didn't want his friend to speak to us.
But anyway, I think the point was made that in order for something to exist,
it must be either self-existing, self-sufficient,
and it must have the quality of ....
It's not dependent on anyone for its existence.
If it does, then that thing is contingent.
And that's the reason we call that contingent thing dependent on the higher being.
And this higher being can only be God, because for that non-contingent thing,
it must have certain qualities like self-existing,
it must have consciousness, it must have a will,
it must have power, knowledge, ability to create, for example.
Just I am asking to you this question, why he is calling her?
What's the reason why Pavlo is calling her?
I don't know. That was Pavlo, by the way.
Anyway, they might have their reasons, but I think the lady did understand.
She did understand, yeah.
Anyone who says that the universe is eternal,
because many people say this, try to circumvent this,
so in order to get away with the infinite regress problem,
because you cannot keep on saying, this created this, this created this,
because it has to end somewhere, otherwise none of this chain would ever exist.
It's like when I go to a library
and if there are infinite number of people in front of me, I will never get the book.
Infinite means neverending.
It has to end somewhere.
It has to be limited.
Now, why eternal universe doesn't work?
Because as I said, the scientists, and this is majority of the scientists,
believe that the universe began 14 billion or so years ago.
So they do believe that it has a beginning,
and also they believe that the universe is going to end one day.
-The expansion, yeah. -The Big Bang.
The expansion will be end at a time, and then it has to be stopped,
so there's a [inaudible 00:11:44].
It's just like a balloon, it cannot go on expanding forever.
Soon as it reaches a certain point, it bursts.
This is from the scientific perspective, and we also as Muslims believe
that Allah is the one who's the Creator of the universe,
the heavens and the earth,
and Allah is also going to be the one Who is going to end all this one day.
Yes. that's what we believe as well.
This is something that we believe as well.
This is going with scientific, rational, logical in every way.
it's going with ur belief, it is going with everything.
When we talk about the scientific thing, when talking about the rational,
when talking about the logic.
That's what we try to convey the message to this lady, and we think she caught it.
I hope.
What I was going to say is that inshallah, I mean, look...
Eternal universe doesn't exist.
The reason for that is because the scientists themself do not agree
that the universe is something which is eternal.
Due to the law of thermodynamics, specifically the second law,
which takes entropy into existence,
that everything which is [inaudible 00:12:51], it ends with a chaos [inaudible 00:12:51].
So there has to be an end to this, some point.
Entropy kicks in, and you cannot have a cycle which goes on and on.
So inshallah, as Muslims, we believe that Allah created the universe,
created us, created everything.
[foreign language 00:13:14].
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