Ready. Ready. Let's go. Hi it's totally Tod's workshop and Tod Cutler here and
today we're going to do one of those burning questions people have been
asking about for ages. A speed trial between a proper longbow, we've got Joe
Gibbs here, war bow archer and war bow bowyer. He can shoot an
extraordinary 200 pounds, today he's just doing 160. I'm on a windlass crossbow, 860
pounds in draw weight and we'll just have a look at the difference in speed
between shooting. We will start our time trial as if with two bodies of archers
ready to start shooting each other, so I will span my bow and have that ready.
Doesn't take Joe long to get ready. And here we go
Ready? Ready. That's good
Yeah well there's a thing eh? Lets go and fetch them. And you got another one straight
in the centre. Quite clearly the longbow, Joes' longbow out shot me massively
so I didn't even manage to get a second bolt off. So the obvious thing is on the
surface the crossbow is a completely useless weapon compared to the longbow.
But a windless crossbow similar to this either this or a sinew prod or a yew
prod. They were used for hundreds of years, at least 200 years, so what's going
on? I mean what were your observations of that Joe? Took you a obviously
quite a while to to span it, you know after a bit of training that you know, I
could do it quite happily whereas the longbow takes a fair few years to build
up the strength and technique and just to be accurate with a longbow takes a
long time. You were accurate - depressingly so. I think
that's very true, I mean I haven't even bothered drawing your bow, I haven't even picked it up, I mean theres no
point whereas I have given you the windlass bow to show you and you can
shoot it quite confidently which is very that's very interesting in its own right.
Because I mean you know sort of the bands of crossbow archers were very
well paid. I think
better paid than longbow archers, so it's
there's a big mystery there because if it's so easy to
use really what's going on? I mean one of the things is your bow is
essentially a cheap item and that is essentially an expensive item; it's the same in industry now, if you've got expensive equipment you charge a lot for
the time even if the job is very easy. I suppose those guys were pretty
proficient soldiers as well you know they're well kitted out in armor as
well. I think what's very frustrating for me with this that you don't have, you can
just pick it up and shoot it, it just utterly painless in that sense, whereas I have
to be really careful to get ready for the next shot. Because I have to unwind my windlass fully. you have to let it down carefully on the ground so it
doesn't tangle up for the next shot and and still you get the ropes around the
trigger sometimes. I shoot it reasonably regularly but not
not again and again you know, I'm not drilling for it. I suppose that they
would have done that and they had people spanning them for them didn't they?
Yes that's a very good point. You would have got twice the amount of bolts
off. Yes I could, so you hand the windlass to somebody and while
you're shooting, they're getting it ready for the next, so yeah that was often done
behind a pavaise, mobile shield. But if I double my shots, you're still twice as
fast. I didn't even get two off and I was ready to go on the first one.
So yeah that is interesting but I suppose it comes down to the social
structure of England as well doesn't it? Because every every guy had to shoot a
bow and so every every guy can shoot, maybe not like you
can shoot, but they can shoot. Shoot a decent bow. And that
wasn't possible on the continent to field those armies, you need to have
specialist troops for that and they've the best you've got is a crossbow
because you can't field 2000 longbowmen, then it's a crossbow you use. So me tell me about
the training, I mean how long? how hard? how much? So basically I've been
shooting heavy type bows for 16/17 years, so I started when I was quite
young about sort of 14/15. I started. Started on the heavier bows?
Obviously not on first one, but quickly into it? 70 pounds plus
and then and slowly worked up from there made my own bows so it
wasn't too expensive for me to work up, could make my own kit so it's a cheap
way of doing it and I shoot two three times a week.
So maybe 100 arrows a week. And how often do you get the two hundred
out? Maybe only sort of every two weeks or something just otherwise I don't want
to knacker (damage) myself. You need a bit of time for your body to
recover because you know, it's a serious weight.
I didn't shoot two but I loaded two, I wouldn't want to do that for half an
hour, I mean I couldn't do that for half an hour. What I was doing there.
Now I know that they're going to be fitter and that's what they are geared up
for, but as you stand now, with 160 pound bow, shooting let's just say four
or five shafts in a minute, how long do you think you can keep that up?
Probably not that long I could get the sort of two sheaves off as for shooting
after that I think I'd probably be bit knackered for constant shooting. If I had
you know it's just a bit of a break you know just took my time about it maybe a
few more. But after the two sheaves, I'll probably be ready
to chuck my bow down and fight anyway I mean there's kind of with
battles like Agincourt or Crecy or whatever you know that the
engagement was several hours long, and so you've got some sort of vision of the
archers just for several hours just pumping them out. But just not possible
no? No I don't think I want to spray all my arrows out and one go anyway.
I probably take my time about it and choose my shots to be honest. It
takes a lot of control so it's not just pulling the action of pulling a bow, it's
when you release. Because your body's under a hell of a lot of
compression and when you let go that string your body wants to release it, so
you have to control that bow arm from stop it doing this or this. So
do you concentrate on your technique? It just comes
naturally; so your body does what it has to do to pull the bow and once you've
been doing it for so long you don't have to concentrate on pulling the bow or
anything it's all natural. Bang. Job done.
No sort of aiming, no gap aiming? No it's seamless, all instinctive, I'm
just looking at the target. Your arm those where it's got a go. That's shooting
three times a week isn't it? Yeah exactly
In medieval England it was a requirement from being quite small boy, for every man
in the land to learn how to shoot a bow. So if you take let's say a 14 year old
lad and you try to work him up to the war bows, how often do you have to
shoot and how long would it take to sort of do the thing safely because obviously
can injure yourself by over doing it. I would say to get him up to a
hundred pounds would probably take,
probably a year because you know if he's not done much before it will
take a quite a while from everything to start build and stuff. But
100 pounds should be pretty achievable; achievable for every one. 100 pounds.
You should be able to shoot 100 pounds no problem
and then the heavier you get, you just got to take that time really. I would
say within five years you should be able to be shooting a decent weight 150
pounds. So it's not necessarily the the strength that makes you a good
archer it's being able to hit stuff, you know if you can shoot 150 pound bow but
you spray your arrows everywhere what's the point?
you might as well shoot 100 pound bow and shoot and hit what you're shooting
at. But the other thing that I found very interesting was, as I said before,
I've been shooting for a long time, but not heavy bows and I've been very
interested in war bows and I thought well you know, I want to learn how to shoot.
There was a lady came into my shop one day carrying a bow and it was quite
obviously a significant bow and it turned out to be 80 pounds, but she was
like 5 foot 2 you know, small lady. And I asked her how she could draw that
because I thought no way I can pull that and she showed me how to do it.
Showed me sort of a different technique to the the modern target archery
that I'd been shooting before. That I found enormously interesting, so we then
went down the range and I shot it and I shot it by using a different technique
and I shot it relatively comfortably and that was an absolute eye-opener for me.
That the technique is different. It's a completely different technique so you
you want to be using a lot of your back muscles, so it's not you're not just
pulling it with your arms. You're not no you're not going to do it with just
your arms. So you need to engage all your back muscles in it and as much as
you can just to get that bow back really. Its technique and strength. A combination.
Yeah you need the combination to be able to do it. So in the last ten
years the people who shoot heavy bows the average has gone up. So
ten years ago you know if someone said I'm shooting 100 pounds everyone would go 'whoa 100 pounds'
but now it's the average has gone up to 125 130 pounds is
the norm. So I feel in another 10 years it would be higher but you know
medieval times it had been going on for hundreds of years.
Every village like this one, has got a butts you know there's always somewhere you can
go and shoot, hang out with your mates. Exactly. So when you're out shooting with your mates, you go
'have a go with my bow' and such and such, have a go with your one see if I can
pull it. Thats it, I suppose when you've got a whole culture built on the bow
you know, men like to boast, I don't suppose that's ever changed, and
you are gonna be having a go and trying to get yourself bigger and better than
bloke next door. Exactly so you know people always ask me if they can have a
go at my bow, you know some people pull it, you know I'm not saying I'm the only
one out there that does it, because I'm not. There are guys out there, that can shoot 160 pound
bows as well, not many but there's a few. You know and I've helped
them along their way, help them train up and such. So do you do any
training, any weight training, with a bow in mind, that doesn't involve
a bow? I don't have a physical job so I do a small amount of weights just at home
just to keep in shape, but there's nothing in a gym that represents a bow.
You can't you cannot theres nothing will help you pull a bow. If you want to shoot
a bow, shoot a bow, that's it, full stop. There's no point going down the gym
thinking if I can benchpress you know such and such, I will be able to. No. Rubbish, if you
want to shoot a bow get out there and shoot a bow. yeah that's it.
The bow is your gym. Exactly, you don't need anything else. I think there
were two very notable things actually about that trial that we've just done,
speed trial, was one of course is that you're out shooting me shot-for-shot
quite clearly, many times over. The other thing that is notable, is that your
arrows are going through the boss and sticking out the other side. The
bolts that I was shooting sometimes they come out the back sometimes they don't.
So just on that very easy thing there you can say that your bow is
more powerful than mine. Mine has got this fantastic headline number of 860
pounds yours is a rubbish 160
pounds you know your 700 pounds off. So what's going on? And that's you know, it's
just a really simple thing is that when you draw your bow you're accelerating
the arrow over what 25 26 inches. I've got roughly a six inch brace
height and then it's drawn back to 30. So about 24 inches. So you're getting
your energy into the arrow pushing it forward 24 inches. I'm pushing it for
six inches, six and a half inches, so a quarter of what you've got. So I've
got a massive headline number, but the efficiency of this is absolutely
appalling, but that's what's curious because it is true now, and it's true
back then. If the efficiency is so bad and actually this is delivering less
power than yours is, you know, why are they using it? I think there are
advantages because one thing to remember is this style of windlass bow it's
called an English windlass so the English were not just about long bows.
You know they use crossbows as well and these are great for sieges. If you're up
on the battlements there, or if I'm on battlements and you want to shoot me, you
have to step out of your cover, you have to.... Expose a lot of you. You have to
draw because you can't step out drawn. And that takes time where you've got a
few guys on the castle having a pop back at you. Whereas I can be from a hide
shooting through a hole that big. It's good for that sort of sniping type thing,
that that long-term warfare where the rate of shooting is not quite so
important. So that's where they're very useful in sieges and you see them quite
a lot in naval warfare as well. Crossbows with handy for that I think
probably again because if you imagine with all the rigging and the low
decks and everything else, a long bow is a difficult thing to use. It can be a
clumsy weapon in a confined space
you keep hitting the knocks and tips and every one thing, with a crossbow it's a
lot easier. I mean the thing is as well, I don't if you're the same as me,
but when I shoot a longbow, even if I've got a couple of twigs or something above
my head, your mind is not on what you're shooting, you're sort of like
you're halfway up there trying to... and it must be hell if you got rigging and
stuff like that around you. Yes almost impossible I'd say if I come up to draw
and even just the small this twig touches the top of the limb
you can feel it it, puts you off, if you loose it sounds stupid, but if you
loose and your limb hits the smallest twig, it upsets the shot.
You don't want it you don't want anything near you.
And on the surface they are far outclassed by the long bow, I mean you
can't deny that, but they are for different purposes really.
They're either because you can't field an army full of long bows because you
haven't got the guys to do it or otherwise this style of warfare be it
naval or siege actually can give the crossbow an advantage even though it
can't do the rate of shooting. Because again one of the comments I get often is
"oh that's really slow that's really useless they'd never have used that" and
it's like "look in the pictures they did all this time for hundreds of years" so
it was a very effective weapon, but if it was you and me in a field 100 yards
apart, I know where I put my money. So would I! Thanks. Joe and I also thought it'd be
interesting to have a look at the accuracy of the two weapons. What I would
say, Joe shoots three times a week and is a world-class archer. I shoot once twice
a month a few shots, so I'm not, but let's just have a look. As a relatively
competent crossbowman, against a very excellent longbowman, what we can both do
at 25 meters.
Now as you can see here this is my group right of centre, Joe's group left of
centre, but actually in terms of group size they're fairly comparable and on
the basis that Joe shoots two to three times a week and I shoot off a couple of
bolts every few weeks, really it just shows that a crossbow is an easier
weapon to aim and so if you're experienced in it you're quite clearly
gonna get better grouping than a longbow guy. I must say I was a bit worried you were going to
completely blow me out of the water, so i'm quite thankful that you didn't and as it
came out, the two groupings were, we both shot little off, but the two groupings were
about the same size. Yeah not far off well the crossbow is obviously you can
you can pick one up and train to use it quite quickly. Obviously it's got less
variables than the longbow you know a longbow is, you've got this arm, this arm,
and your loose. Length of draw. Thats why it takes so many
years to to be able to shoot accurately. It was a nice thing to see how the two
compared and I think it's clear that the crossbow is inherently a more accurate
weapon, because of the lower number of variables and a comparison that is often
made in the comments that I get, is that the crossbow is the sniper rifle of
medieval times. Actually I think there's probably some truth in that,
because you can lay in wait for your target. Yeah. And then when you do shoot,
you're inherently pretty accurate and so there's a good chance of you hitting
the target. So I think it's actually a fairly valid comparison, certainly for
siege warfare, that it is a bit like the sniper rifle. Yeah I would say so. Joe
thank you once again it's been great having you here. Thank you I enjoyed it
it was good. And hopefully we'll go again. Yeah
definitely.