when
did the steel start
when did the talk of a coup really begin
these are the kind of interesting
questions that we don't have all the
answers to yet but these investigations
that are going forward are helping give
clues
like now we're learning donald trump jr
had some kind of plan to steal the
election for his father text messages
from junior to chief of staff meadows
reveal the plot
and the timing well this is interesting
it began as early as the day after the
election cnn reports there are texts
that show a scheme that maggot
supporters wanted to pull off and that
the committee investigating this has
them i should note this is a cnn report
that nbc has not confirmed this as of
right now
but according to that report the texts
show don jr writing on november 5th
quote it's very simple we have multiple
paths we control
them all
as for the them and the details and the
thinking well that's why people have to
testify again remember other family
like jared nevanka already have don jr
then says congress can just overthrow
the results quote we have operational
control total leverage he says moral
high ground potus must start second term
now
this is interesting it's potentially
culpable for don jr and it's also i have
to mention ridiculous you don't just get
to start a second term that you never
won
now we're talking about the inner circle
donald trump's son and that goes to
culpability because obviously the
question becomes
if your closest aides like your chief of
staff and your son are doing this then
how much is it at your direction what is
your intent the hardest thing to prove
in criminal cases
this was of course just hours after
polls closed trump jr was also pushing
on the fake electors plot we've reported
about that quite a bit a trump aide
admitted part of that plan to push
fraudulent electors on this broadcast
which is context for a text that we've
just now of course learned about trump
jr again writing to the chief of staff
they should have republican-controlled
state assemblies
step in
and then they could commit widespread
election fraud
for a coup now he doesn't call it that
he just refers to quote trump electors
adding republicans control pa wisconsin
michigan north carolina
we get trump electors
what you see on your screen in text in
writing is kutak we lost the race we
know we lost it that's why we need to
overthrow the real electors put in
fraudulent ones commit massive voter
fraud which anyone can go to jail for
and then stage a coup that's what's on
your screen this is real stuff meanwhile
today the criminal cases are showing
their own type of progress the doj which
at times have been criticized for not
being aggressive enough well boy they're
scoring a win right now they have the
right wing group proud boys their leader
had pled not guilty but now has cracked
pleading guilty to conspiracy to
obstruct congress on the 6th charles
donahoe who led a north carolina branch
admits the planning
and
is flipping
he says his goal was stopping the
government from carrying out the
transfer of presidential power that's
the civilian side of a coup with
violence attached on who could be key to
the evidence here especially if he fully
flips and testifies and implicates
others
i'm joined now by a former federal
prosecutor who's run a u.s attorney's
office in exactly these kind of complex
witness-based cases joyce vance welcome
back
hi ari
hi we could start on either big story
but let's start with the cooperation
here because that is real stuff what
does it mean that he uh can drop a dime
on other people
it's incredibly important look this is
and you and i have discussed this so
many times
this is how prosecutors work conspiracy
cases you start with the least culpable
people and you work your way up the
chain until you can find cooperating
witnesses who can help you identify and
find evidence against the most culpable
players and it looks like we're getting
there it looks like there is now
evidence being developed that several of
these groups worked together on january
6. the question is how high up will that
evidence lead
yeah how high right and that's really
significant uh with don jr here it's
just one more person involved
what does that tell you about how this
plan was hatched uh to try to steal the
election
so the text messages which were sent by
the way on november 5th votes are still
being counted for the election trump jr
is already apparently making plans to
deal with a loss in the election which
is very interesting right he seems to be
acknowledging that loss so you might
want to know where did his information
come from who was he discussing that
with did his father believe at that
point in time that he had already lost
the election but ultimately you know and
i know that donald trump jr who does not
have a law degree did not come up with
this design that he lays out in the text
message his lawyers have said that he
just forwarded some texts that he
received after the election
but you know it's not that simple and to
send it on to mark meadows the chief of
staff with these very detailed plans
makes you want to ask the most important
question about this text message when
trump jr says we we control everything
who's we
who's part of this conspiracy and what
can each of those people tell you about
what they knew because something that i
know to be true in conspiracy cases is
once you find a smoking gun there is
someone who wants to cooperate someone
who understands that the defendant who
cuts the first deal does the best
we're not there yet this is a text
message that the january 6th committee
has in its possession
there is no indication that doj is
looking at this in the criminal sense
although one believes that they will get
there and this is also not ari the
conspiracy to engage in a coup or
sedition on january 6th this isn't even
the conspiracy to interfere with
certifying the electoral college vote
this is perhaps an earlier conspiracy
and it's possible that you could have
multiple conspiracies here with multiple
players this might be a standard 371
conspiracy
the statute is 18 us code 371 and the
conspiracy would be to defraud the
government by interfering with the
legitimate results of the election this
gives me a lot of sympathy for doj once
you start talking about multiple
conspiracies with multiple players to be
identified and specific evidence needed
for each one
yeah and as you say they have to pull
out all those threads but it's really
striking joyce vance always good to see
you
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you