DAVID SPEERS, PRESENTER: Marise Payne, welcome to the program. What questions would you like
China to answer?
MARISE PAYNE, FOREIGN MINISTER: Good morning David, and good morning to the team. I think
the key to going forward in the context of these issues is transparency. Transparency
from China most certainly. Transparency from all of the key countries across the world
who will be part of any review that takes place. I think it's fundamental that we identify,
we determine an independent review mechanism to examine the development of this epidemic,
its development into a pandemic, the crisis that is occurring internationally. It is important,
though, I think, to bear in mind the point at which we find ourselves. Yes, we are dealing
with the challenge here in Australia. Yes, this challenge in Europe is significant, in
the United States and what we've already seen in China. But there are parts of the world
where that wave is yet to be ridden. And I think it's very important to make sure that
we're not ignoring that as we determine what the next steps are.
SPEERS: I want to come to that, but just sticking with China for a moment. When you say there's
a need for transparency, again, what would you like to know from China?
PAYNE: Well, we need to know the sorts of details that an independent review would identify
for us about the genesis of the virus, about the approaches to dealing with it, and addressing
it about the openness with which information was shared. About interaction with the World
Health Organisation into action with other international leaders. All of those sorts
of things will need to be on the table.
SPEERS: Who should conduct this independent review that you're talk about?
PAYNE: Well, as I say, there will need to be an agreed determined mechanism by which
to do that. We've been able to do those sorts of things in the past for key independent
reviews, often on egregious human rights issues, for example. And I think that there will be
a path through. But it will need parties and countries to come to the table with a willingness
to be transparent and to engage in that process. And also ensure that we have a review mechanism
in which the international community can have faith.
SPEERS: Could it be the World Health Organisation, or do you agree that they're too beholden
to China?
PAYNE: Well, I don't think that it is so much about whether we are or are not beholden to
China. And we share some of the concerns that the United States have identified in relation
to the World Health Organisation. That is certainly correct. I think it is about an
independent mechanism, and I'm not sure that you can have the health organisation which
has been responsible for disseminating much of the international communications material,
and doing much of the early engagement and investigative work, also as the review mechanism.
That strikes me as somewhat poacher and gamekeeper.
SPEERS: It can't be the World Health Organisation, in other words, to do this review?
PAYNE: Well, no, as I said, that strikes me as a bit poacher and gamekeeper.
SPEERS: Do you think that the virus did originate from the wet market in Wuhan?
PAYNE: I think it's clear that the virus originated in Wuhan, and most likely in the wet market.
And we have expressed our concerns about the opening up of wildlife wet markets in that
context. We would be very, very careful to ensure that all health precautions could be
taken. As they operate currently, I think it's dubious as to whether that is possible,
so that has to be an ongoing question.
SPEERS: Your Chinese counterpart Wang Yi spoke to you on January 30. This was some weeks
into the virus in Wuhan. Is it true that he said to you, "The epidemic is generally preventable,
controllable and curable?"
PAYNE: I'm not usually in the business of going through private conversations with counterparts,
but I understand that part of that was of course posted. That is broadly part of that
conversation. And in January, and on January 30 or thereabouts, I think that the world
had a very different view about the trajectory of the virus in many ways.
SPEERS: But if he's telling you that it's curable and preventable, do you think that's
what he really thought at the time?
PAYNE: Well, I don't think that I can speak for what he really thought at the time. Certainly,
I believe that he was making a genuine statement to me at the time. But these are, of course,
concerns that have grown significantly since that point in time, as we have seen. The extraordinary
waves of the coronavirus, its impact on countries across the European Union, in the United States
and inevitably further afield.
SPEERS: The acting British Prime Minister says, "There cannot be a business-as-usual
with China after this pandemic." Your colleague, the Home Affairs Minister also says, "There
will be a reset in the way the world interacts with China." Do you agree?
PAYNE: I think that relationships all around the world will change, and I do think that
relationships between China and its partners, Australia and China, will be changed in some
ways. What is really important is, in my view, in our view, how the world comes together
now to cooperate, to rebuild, is absolutely key to this.
SPEERS: But how will the relationship between China and Australia change?
PAYNE: Well, I think you'd need a crystal ball, wouldn't you now, to say exactly how
that will transpire. And while we are considering those implications every single day, both
in the context of the Government, in my own department, and in our other relationships.
This is very much an unfolding situation.
SPEERS: What are your thoughts right now? Will there be less trust in China from your part?
PAYNE: We would be very clear that we believe transparency is essential. We have a relationship
with China which is well founded. It has underpinning it, a comprehensive partnership with five
key pillars. But all of these things will need to be reviewed, will need to be considered
in the light of changes in the world economy. In
the light of changes in international health security. And so many other things. And that
is the work that we are doing at the moment.
SPEERS: Let me ask you directly, minister - has your trust in China been eroded?
PAYNE: My trust in China is predicated in the long-term relationship. My concern about
these issues though is at a very high point. My concern is around transparency and ensuring
that we are able to engage openly, and I heard what Greg said earlier, but openly and clearly
in a review process so that we can get to bottom of
this. The international community wants the same thing.
SPEERS: I appreciate that, but I'm just asking right now, from where you sit right now, has
your trust in China been eroded?
PAYNE: Well we are working closely with our partners in China, in the United States, in
a range of other nations, you mentioned Dominic Raab earlier, and I was in touch with him
overnight. Around all of these issues. We need to be able to come to the table with
an open mind, but most importantly with eyes wide open as to
Australia's national interests, and that is always the way we will start these arrangements.
SPEERS: Do you trust China?
PAYNE: I trust China in terms of the work that we need to do together. The issues around
the coronavirus are issues for independent review, and I think that it is important that
we do that. In fact, Australia will absolutely insist on that.
SPEERS: About a week ago, an Australian air force plane, it was one of our big C-17s was
given clearance to fly a load of humanitarian supplies to Vanuatu after a cyclone there.
It flew all the way there but couldn’t land because apparently a Chinese plane was on
the runway and wouldn't move or wasn't told to move. The
Australian plane flew all the way back and couldn't deliver the supplies. What went on?
PAYNE: That was I think on April 12. The supplies were delivered on April 13. And we are providing
strong support to the countries in the Pacific that were impacted by Tropical Cyclone Harold.
Vanuatu, Fiji, the Solomon Islands and Tonga in particular. There was an A-320 on the tarmac
on the Sunday which had been unloading stores delivered from China as I understand
it. The unloading took a long period of time and the plane was still on the tarmac unexpectedly
for Australia on the Sunday. The Vanuatu system had provided the assistance that we needed
to take off from Amberley and to arrive at a particular time. But as it occurred, the
A-320 was still there. In negotiations and discussions,
not negotiations, between air traffic control authorities and the Royal Australian Air force
it was determined that it was not as safe as it should be to land, so we decided to
make the delivery on the Monday.
SPEERS: Is there a concern here that it looked a little bit like a deliberate attempt to
stop Australia being able to deliver aid in Vanuatu. Is that right?
PAYNE: It's absolutely regrettable that we were delayed in delivering those humanitarian
supplies. There is no question of that.
SPEERS: Was it deliberate on China's part?
PAYNE: We have raised our concerns with officials in Vanuatu and in appropriate places with
the Chinese Government. I don't know whether it was deliberate or not, David. I wasn't
there. But what is most important is that countries like Australia, countries like Australia
and New Zealand working together, and others in the
region, are able to support our Pacific neighbours in the way that is so important now.
SPEERS: A couple of other things. Donald Trump is, of course, suspending US funding to the
World Health Organisation for between 60 and 90 days. Normally, the US accounts for about
15% of World Health Organisation funding. Do you know what impact that will actually
have on their operations during this pandemic?
PAYNE: I understand that the World Health Organisation itself is examining that question
now. And I said earlier in our discussions that Australia shares some of the concerns
of the United States in relation to the operation of the World Health Organisation. They're
concerns we've expressed before, frankly. But importantly, for
us, particularly in the Indo-Pacific. In the Pacific itself and in South-East Asia, we
do some extremely valuable work with the World Health Organisation. They rolled out in early
February a regional impact process for the coronavirus pandemic in the Pacific, which
both Australia and New Zealand have funded. Their multilateral
impact in the Pacific is very significant. Equally so in Indonesia. So while I said we
do share some of those concerns, we will not be taking the same approach in relation to
Australia's funding of the World Health Organisation. But that said, if I can go back to the question
that you asked earlier in relation to a review of
the coronavirus epidemic. The what, the how, the who and the why. The World Health Organisation
and its functions in that regard will be integral to the transparency of that review.
SPEERS: And can I turn to the Australians who have been unable to return home from different
parts of the world? Some have been repatriated on specially arranged flights in the past
couple of weeks, but many are still stuck. Can you give us a figure there? Is it still
around 11,000 Australians trying to get home?
PAYNE: We've seen about 300,000 Australians return since March 13, and in that cohort,
a very significant number from what was over 50 cruise ships and almost 6,500 Australians.
And then a large number as well on flights. There are probably about 11,000 people whose
names are recorded with posts around the world.
It doesn't mean that all of the people wish to return to Australia and many of them are long-term
residents of the countries in which they're located. This morning, three flights from
the Philippines returned to Australia into Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. That was a
mammoth effort. That required 12 sweeper flights from
around the Philippines, bringing people from places like Subbu and other parts of Mindanao
to Manila to be able to board those flights through a very, very stressful, high pressure
lockdown environment. I'm very glad to see that. But there is more to do.
SPEERS: What about India? This seems to be the biggest difficulty right now? There are
more than 6,000 Australians who have registered with the High Commission there who want to
come home. The British Government has organised something like 17 charter flights out of India.
Why can't we?
PAYNE: There's been a number of flights which have left from India supported by the High
Commission in India. As you know, it is also in lockdown. The different states have different
rules. We are processing people to be able to be able to travel across those areas. We
are also very focused on making sure that every single
Australian who needs an application to leave India has that facilitated by the High Commission.
We are in discussions with a number of other airlines for the coming week to endeavour
to identify further flights. But they are challenging times. That is work which the
High Commission is very focused on. There in Argentina, in South Africa.
SPEERS: Is a charter flight just too expensive? Is that the problem?
PAYNE: No, it's not about expense. We're working closely with Qantas and with Virgin on a number
of those flights. We are using multiple mechanisms to return Australians to Australia. As you
know, we have been saying for over a month now, a month and a half if I'm not mistaken,
or thereabouts, that Australians should take every opportunity to return to Australia.
Many have done so, as I said. We have over 300,000 Australians returning since March
13. There are still commercial flights from a number of other locations. We still encourage
Australians to take those flights now, and we are using every means at our disposal to
support Australians who are in some of the most difficult places to return.
SPEERS: Final one before I let you go. Malcolm Turnbull and his publisher pretty fired up
that pirated electronic copies of his book have been circulating this weekend far and
wide. Have you received a copy?
PAYNE: I understand that. I have not been responsible for disseminating any.
SPEERS: But you've received one?
PAYNE: I've received and deleted and I would encourage anyone who has received, to do the
same thing.
SPEERS: Did it come from the Prime Minister's Office? This is the suggestion from the publisher?
PAYNE: Absolutely not.
SPEERS: Who did it come from?
PAYNE: David, I've received and deleted. That's the most important thing.
SPEERS: You won't tell us who it came from.
PAYNE: Received and deleted.
SPEERS: I'll take that as no answer? I think we will. Foreign Minister Marise Payne, thank
you for joining us.