>>> WE ALL KNOW RUSSIAN
PRESIDENT VLADAMIR PUTIN LOVES
TO PORTRAY HIMSELF AS A STRONG
MAN.
THROUGH ELABORATE PHOTO-OPES
PERPETUATING A MACHO MAN IMAGE,
OR HIS ANNUAL HOCKEY EXHIBITION
GAMES WHERE, DESPITE LEARNING TO
PLAY IN LIFE, HE ALWAYS NOTCHES
AN IMPRESSIVE NUMBER OF GOALS.
WONDER WHY?
IN 2019, THAT IMAGE SLIPPED,
LITERALLY, AS HE TOOK A VICTORY
LAP DURING A MATCH IN SOCHI.
THAT'S ALL ESSENTIALLY A PROXY
FOR HIS AGGRESSION TOWARDS
UKRAINE.
THE STRONG MAN, WHO IN HIS MIND,
E PITTIZES RUSSIAN STRENGTH
FALLING ON HIS FACE.
HE'S BEEN STRIPPED OF HIS
HONORARY BLACK BELT FROM TAE
KWAN DO.
IN ANOTHER RAMBLING DIATRIBE
TODAY, PUTIN LEVELED OUTRAGEOUS
LIES ABOUT THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE,
AND INSISTED THAT HIS WAR IN
UKRAINE IS GOING ACCORDING TO
PLAN.
EACH AS THE SO-CALLED GREAT
RUSSIAN ARMY IN UKRAINE IS
PLAGUED BY POOR MORALE, WITH
SOME SOLDIERS VERPD ING SS SURRE
WHILE THE KREMLIN HAS TRIED TO
HIDE THIS FROM THE RUSSIAN
PEOPLE, THE DEFENSE MINISTRY
CONFIRMED CASUALTIES FOR THE
FIRST TIME.
AND THERE'S THE CRUSHING WEIGHT
OF SANCTIONS.
MOSCOW STOCKS CLOSED AGAIN FOR
THE FOURTH STRAIGHT DAY.
THE FOREIGN MINISTER SAID RUSSIA
WAS READY TO CONDUCT TALKS WITH
UKRAINE, BUT ADDED RUSSIA WOULD
CONTINUE THE WAR TO THE BITTER END.
WITH ME NOW, KEER SIMMONS AND
ANN APPLEBAUM.
I WONDER IF YOU ARE GETTING A
SENSE OF HOW MUCH OF THE REALITY
OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE,
INCLUDING THE JUST EXTRAVAGANT
VIOLENCE, BUT ALSO THE FAILURES
ON THE PART OF THE RUSSIAN
MILITARY ARE BLEEDING INTO THE
EARS AND EYES OF RUSSIANS INSIDE
OF THAT COUNTRY.
>> I THINK IT MUST BE DONE BY
ONE RUSSIAN, AND THAT'S VLADAMIR
PUTIN.
AND THAT IMAGE YOU SHOWED OF HIM
GIVING HIS SPEECH TODAY, HE WAS
QUIETLY BOILING.
CLEAR THAT HE IS FURIOUS, JUST
BY HIS -- BY THE WAY THAT HE
APPEARS.
AND ALSO DETERMINED.
HONESTLY, RIGHT NOW, JOY, I
THINK WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE
HOPE IS HARD TO FIND.
ECONOMIC HOPE, MILITARY HOPE FOR
THE RUSSIANS, BUT ALSO FOR THE
UKRAINIANS FRANKLY.
BECAUSE DESPITE THE FACT THAT
THEY HAVE HAD THESE SETBACKS, I
HEARD CAL TALKING EARLIER ON
THIS SHOW, WELL, WE HEARD FROM
THE FRENCH PRESIDENT WHO SPOKE
FOR 90 MINUTES TO PRESIDENT
PUTIN, THAT HE BELIEVES THE
RUSSIANS WANT TO TAKE THE WHOLE
OF UKRAINE, AND I THINK THAT
PRESIDENT PUTIN CLEARLY IS
DETERMINED TO DO THAT.
THAT'S ALL THE MESSAGING THAT WE
HAVE, THAT WE ARE GETTING.
JOY, JUST THINK ABOUT THIS.
I THINK IT'S PRETTY CHILLING,
REALLY, IN TERMS OF WHAT WE ARE
LOOKING AT.
YOU MENTIONED A LITTLE EARLIER
THE IRAQ WAR.
I THINK THE CASUALTY NUMBERS FOR
U.S. FORCES IN THE IRAQ WAR WAS
AROUND 4,500.
OBVIOUSLY MANY MORE CIVILIANS
WERE KILLED.
IN RUSSIA'S AFGHANISTAN WAR,
OVER NINE YEARS, 15,000.
NOW, THE RUSSIANS TODAY CLAIMING
THAT THEY HAVE HAD 500 PEOPLE
KILLED.
THE UKRAINIANS ARE CLAIMING
7,000 RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED.
WE DON'T KNOW THE EXACT NUMBER,
BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THE RUSSIAN
PRESIDENT TODAY EFFECTIVELY
ADMITTED THAT RUSSIANS ARE
DYING.
AND EVEN OFFERED THE EQUIVALENT
OF $50,000 FOR EACH FAMILY WHERE
A RUSSIAN HAS DIED.
SO HE'S TRYING TO GET HIS
COUNTRY TO ACCEPT THE KINDS OF
CASUALTIES, AND THE PROBLEM IS,
WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT MIGHT
CHANGE RUSSIAN OPINION.
BUT WHAT IT MIGHT ALSO MEAN IS
AN ASTONISHING CLAMPDOWN ON THE
PEOPLE OF RUSSIA, NOT JUST IN
TERMS OF WHAT THEY ARE ALLOWED
TO KNOW, BUT ALSO WHETHER
THEY'RE ALLOWED TO PROTEST AND
ALL THOSE ISSUES.
AND THEN YOU HAVE THIS GOING
DOWN BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE
WEST.
I WISH I COULD BE MORE POSITIVE,
BUT I THINK THINGS LOOK PRETTY
DARK TONIGHT.
>> AND THEY'RE GETTING DARKER.
WE'RE GETTING REPORTS OF HEAVY
WEAPONS FIRE AT THE LARGEST
NUCLEAR PLANT.
THAT'S TERRIFYING.
THAT IS ALMOST A WORST CASE
SCENARIO, THAT THEY ARE SHELLING
NEAR THE LARGEST NUCLEAR PLANT
IN UKRAINE.
THAT SOUNDS LIKE INDISCRIMINATE,
THAT DOES NOT SOUND LIKE
SOMETHING GOING ACCORDING TO
PLAN.
AND THEN THE OTHER LITTLE POINT
THAT I'LL MAKE AS WELL IS
RUSSIAN MPs CALLING FOR ANTI-WAR
PROTESTORS.
THIS FOR YOU AS WELL, KEIR, TO
BE CONSCRIPTED AND 1E789 TOSENT
FRONT LINES TO FIGHT.
IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY DON'T EVEN
WANT TO RAISE THE MORALE OF
THEIR OWN PEOPLE, JUST USE THEM
AS CANNON FODDER AND WILL RISK A
NUCLEAR NIGHTMARE.
THEY DON'T SEEM TO CARE MUCH
ABOUT THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.
>> Reporter: WHAT WE SAW TODAY
WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN'S SPEECH
TODAY IS HIS SECURITY COUNCIL,
WHO ARE THERE, BUT THEY WEREN'T
THERE, BECAUSE THEY WERE ON
VIDEO, YOU KNOW, BEAMED IN.
SO ONCE AGAIN, HE'S AT A
DISTANCE TO WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO
BE HIS CLOSEST ADVISERS.
WE TALKED ABOUT THE WORK WE'RE
DOING TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHO
IS INFLUENCING PRESIDENT PUTIN.
IT LOOKS AS IF THE PEOPLE WHO
ARE INFLUENCING HIM, SOME OF THE
INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, HIS
BODYGUARDS.
THERE IS THIS UNIT OF
PRESIDENTIAL PROTECTION KIND OF
TEAM.
A LARGE ORGANIZATION, VERY
INFLUENTIAL HERE IN RUSSIA.
YOU DON'T KNOW THIS, BUT YOU CAN
IMAGINE A SCENARIO DURING THE
LAST TWO YEARS OF COVID,
PRESIDENT PUTIN MIGHT NOT HAVE
HAD SO MUCH ACCESS, CERTAINLY
NOT WITH THE OLIGARCHS OR HIS
ADVISERS, BUT WITH THAT TIGHTER
UNIT OF JEBSINTELLIGENCE OFFICER
AND THOSE KINDS OF PEOPLE.
SO ONE IMAGINES THEY ARE STILL
THE PEOPLE HE IS TALKING TO AND
IS INFLUENCING HIM.
AND HOW HAS HIS -- HOW HAVE HIS
VIEWS CHANGED?
YOU KNOW SOMETHING, I USED TO
STAY ABOUT RUSSIA THAT BE
CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR,
BECAUSE PRESIDENT PUTIN COULD BE
REPLACED BY SOMETHING MORE
HARDLINE AND NATIONALISTIC.
IT LOOKS LIKE HE HAS BEEN
REPLACED BY THAT PERSON, BUT
IT'S PRESIDENT PUTIN HAVING
SHIFTED HIS POSITION QUITE
SUBSTANTIALLY.
>> AND ANNE, ALSO HAVING THE
FORMER PRESIDENT LOVES TO CALL
PUT AN GENIUS AND SHREWD, THIS
SEEMS SO INCREDIBLY WRONG-HEADED
TO THINK THAT YOU CAN FORCE 44
MILLION PEOPLE TO REJOIN YOUR,
YOU KNOW, THE EMPIRE IN YOUR
MIND, WHEN THEY MADE IT VERY
CLEAR THEY HAVE NO INTEREST IN
DOING THAT.
CALLING A COUNTRY LED BY A
JEWISH MAN A NAZI WHILE
URSHELING THE MEMORIAL TO THE
HOLOCAUST INSIDE OF UKRAINE AND
SAYING YOU'RE GOING TO CONSCRIPT
PEOPLE PROTESTING AGAINST THE
WAR.
YOU'RE GOING TO PUT GUNS TO
THEIR HEADS TO KILL UKRAINIANS.
NONE OF IT IS RATIONAL TO ME.
I FEEL LIKE I KEEP SAYING IT
OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NONE SEEMS RATIONAL TO ME.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHERE PUTIN
IS MENTALLY AND STRATEGICALLY AT
THIS STAGE?
>> SO UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS
RATIONAL WITHIN PUTIN'S
UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD.
IN THE TALK HE GAVE TODAY, IN
THE RANT ACTUALLY THAT HE DID ON
TELEVISION TODAY, HE MADE IT
CLEAR ONCE AGAIN THAT HIS
OBJECTIVE IS TO ELIMINATE AND
REMOVE THE UKRAINIANS.
YOU KNOW, THEY HAVEN'T TURNED
OUT TO BE THE COMPLIANT PEOPLE
HE THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO
BE.
HE THOUGHT HE WOULD MARCH IN AND
THEY WOULD BE IN KYIV IN 48
HOURS AND WELCOME THE RUSSIAN
TROOPS WITH FLOWERS AND THE WAR
WOULD BE OVER.
HE'S VERY DISTANT FROM REALITY.
HE HAS LITTLE SENSE OF WHAT
MODERN UKRAINE IS LIKE.
HE HAS NO CONTACT WITH
UKRAINIANS, AND I THINK PROBABLY
THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM HAVE
LITTLE CONTACT EITHER.
YOU KNOW, BUT HIS THEORY OF THE
WORLD, HIS THEORY OF RUSSIAN
HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY, IS THAT
SPACE IN WHICH MODERN UKRAINE
EXISTS IS REALLY RUSSIAN.
SO THEREFORE, THE LOGIC OF THAT
IS THAT WE NEED TO ELIMINATE THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE THERE.
THE SO-CALLED NAZIS, YOU KNOW,
THE NON-PEOPLE, THE EVIL PEOPLE
WHO HAVE SOMEHOW TWISTED THE
MINDS OF THE INHABITANTS.
WE NEED TO ELIMINATE THEM AND
REPLACE THEM WITH SOMETHING
ELSE.
THIS IS REALLY DANGEROUS.
REALLY FRIGHTENING, GENOCIDAL
THINKING.
HE'S NOW THINKING ABOUT
ELIMINATING, DESTROYING, YOU
KNOW, THIS TARGETING OF
CIVILIANS NOW IS NOT AN
ACCIDENT.
IT'S ABOUT REMOVING PEOPLE FROM
THAT SPACE AND SUBSTITUTING THEM
WITH SOMETHING ELSE.
>> AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS
WARNED THE WORLD AND SAID HE
WON'T BE DONE.
THAT THIS MANIA EXTENDS BEYOND
UKRAINE.
AND IF UKRAINE GOES, SO WILL
MANY, MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.
HE'LL TRY TO GET IT ALL BACK,
GET THE WHOLE USSR BACK.
DO YOU THINK THAT IT COULD BE
POSSIBLE WHEN THIS MAN CLEARLY
HAS NOT DEPLOYED ENOUGH TROOPS,
HE DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH TROOPS TO
REALLY HOLD THAT COUNTRY, THAT
HE WOULD TRY FOR MORE?
>> THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT
QUESTIONS.
YES, IT'S POSSIBLE HE COULD TRY
FOR MORE.
WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO IS BRING
THE WEST TO ITS KNEES, BRING
AMERICA TO ITS KNEES.
HE TALKS A LOT ABOUT AMERICA,
ALTHOUGH WE'RE SO FAR AWAY.
AND MAKE THEM FEEL THE SHAME AND
HUMILIATION THAT HE FELT AT THE
TIME OF THE BREAKUP OF THE
SOVIET UNION.
SO HE IS TRYING TO REVERSE
HISTORY TO REPLACE THE MODERN
WORLD WITH SOMETHING IN THE
PAST.
KIND OF GROTESQUE DISTORTION OF
NOSTALGIA.
BUT THE SECOND PART OF YOUR
QUESTION, CAN HE DO SNIT ONE OF
THE REASONS SO FEW PEOPLE IN
RUSSIA BELIEVED THIS WOULD
HAPPEN IS THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE
THE TROOPS TO HOLD UKRAINE.
HE DOESN'T HAVE AN OCCUPYING
FORCE.
AND ONE OF THE FEARS THAT PEOPLE
HAVE IS THAT SINCE HE CAN'T
OCCUPY IT, HE WILL DESTROY IT.
SO UNDERSTANDING THAT, AND
UNDERSTANDING THAT'S HIS LOGIC,
AND THAT HE WILL THEN SEEK TO
SPREAD THOSE TACTICS AS FAR AS
HE CAN, I THINK IT IS REALLY
IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW SO WE