- Welcome to a special Q and A of "Trickster".
One of the 50 titles and official selection
at the 45th Toronto International Film Festival.
As part of Share Her Journey,
TIFF's commitment to supporting women
behind in front of the camera,
we're thrilled to spotlight the incredible films and series
by women at this year's festival.
Including "Trickster".
My name is Geoff Macnaughton
and I'm the lead programmer of Primetime
and senior director of industry and theatrical here at TIFF.
I'm very excited to be here
with director and co-creator Michelle Latimer
and lead actor,
Joel Oulette.
Thank you to our audience,
for joining us as an organization still impacted by COVID.
We need to support our audiences
so that we can continue to present films
to future generations
and preserve these diverse and important voices.
This series is eligible for the People's Choice Award.
So vote for your favorite films and series
at https://www.tiff.net/vote
Michelle, Joel welcome.
This is really exciting to have you both here.
Thanks so much for joining us.
- Thanks for having us. - Thanks.
- We're excited.
- So Michelle, it's a big year.
You have two projects at TIFF this year,
the documentary,
"Inconvenient Indian" and "Trickster".
Which are both literary adaptations.
I was wondering if you could start by telling us,
what drew you to Eden Robinson's novel "Standard Trickster".
- Sure.
Well, I picked it up just as an escape.
I thought I would read it and have some fun with it
and I couldn't get myself out of it.
I read it in the span of three days
and the characters just stayed with me.
I felt like they were people I knew and I grew up with.
There was like an irreverent humor and sort of a violence,
but also a love.
It just felt real.
And then the added bonus having the supernatural,
that the story of the mythological trickster
that I grew up with in my childhood
to actually have that sort of contemporized
in the story of Jared,
I just...
It was like a no brainer for me.
- (chuckles)
And the adaptation process is tricky because
I'm guessing with Eden's book,
there's pieces of it that you really want to get right.
What was the most important part of it
that you wanted to kind of bring justice to?
- For me, I would just...
I really wanted to honor the place and the people,
the Haisla Nation,
and we shot in Kitimat village for a portion of the filming
and it was just important for me to get it right.
I feel like sometimes with indigenous stories,
we pan-indigenize everything
and we forget that we have so many nations
and so many different kinds of cultural experiences,
and I wanted it to be specific to Eden's nation,
to the Haisla Nation.
She's also Haisla Heiltsuk.
So we have that dichotomy in the show.
- And I'm sure there's a lot that you learn
with every shoot that you're on
in terms of the content that you're exploring.
What did you learn about the trickster mythology
or did you have a...
You mentioned you had a...
You knew the trickster before
in terms of stories and growing up,
but what did you learn that you didn't know?
- Well, I think it's...
I mean, there's always so many things to learn.
I think for me,
I was really interested in the,
the idea of witches and that witches...
Actually I was worried about using that word,
but then Eden was like,
"No, we have witches.
"We have medicine that..."
And I...
For me that was really new to learn about that
and to learn about the significance of that culturally.
And then there's also the,
just the pure escapist imagination.
Like to get to create a world where there's monsters.
I grew up watching early David Cronenberg films
and you know, I love Guillermo del Toro
and I just...
It was such a joy to be able to play in that arena.
- I bet.
Joel, this is your first leading role in a project.
What connected you to the character of Jared?
- Well, Jared he's in high school, you know.
He's a 17 year old kid.
I was a 17 year old kid when I got cast
and I just graduated high school,
I could really feel like I could resonate with you know,
like I don't know, the struggles that teenagers have.
You know, like with even if it's partying,
or I don't know, family troubles you know.
Everyone has family troubles.
Girls, academics,
all that stuff.
So I could really put myself in his shoes
and really feel what he was going through.
So I feel like that definitely helped me.
like go to the character more.
- And what was some of the guidance you got from Michelle
during production or pre-production
to kind of find Jared's voice?
- Well, Michelle, she really...
She knew where the character had to be, you know.
And she knew how to push me to my limits,
to get to that place,
to get to those emotional states that Jared had to go to,
or you know, even just like anything,
she helped me out with, you know.
She was an actress before too.
So she could really put herself in my shoes
and understand what I had to like hear
to feel what Jared was going through.
Or like feel or act.
And I feel that she really pushed me to that point.
- And this is a question for both of you,
so up to you in terms of who wants to answer first,
but looking back on this series five years from now,
what will be your fondest memory of production
that you can take away?
- My fondest memory, I don't know.
It was really...
It was a lot of fun you know.
Like we had a lot of fun off-set.
Like just, we'd chill at each other's like rooms
or we would go like,
go get stuff to eat or anything like it was fun,
but like on-set,
I probably the fondest memory was probably
learning so much about just acting and you know,
the filming industry.
It was like a perfect like catalyst through my career.
And I really appreciate all the knowledge I learned
from everyone.
Everyone off-set and like crew and cast.
That was definitely the fondest memories,
all the knowledge I learned.
- Michelle.
- Well, I love shooting in Kitimat.
That was really important to me.
I think for me,
like the biggest challenge in working in this medium,
is to try and sort of think about different structures.
How do we indigenize the experience?
And it's sort of a colonial hierarchical system
being on a film set.
So how do we sort of rebuild that in a different way
and give it more authenticity
for the indigenous process of storytelling?
So to look out at a crew and see indigenous people,
like behind the scenes in every department,
including our beautiful cast in front of the camera.
I mean, I've never had that experience.
I've never experienced that.
And I think we can do better.
Like, thank God we have a second season
that we're going to get a chance to do even more.
But like that for me,
you asked me,
where will I look back at five years ago?
I hope in five years,
I look back and I see so many productions
that are doing this.
That it is just the norm.
But for me, it was one of the first times in my career
that I had that opportunity to see that representation
on all levels.
And it was the most exciting thing.
- That actually gets me to my next question.
So this to my knowledge,
is the first indigenous-led Primetime drama
on national network.
And as a storyteller who is indigenous,
what do you hope this changes the landscape?
Or how do you hope this changes the landscape in the future?
- I just think we're ready for different kinds of stories.
I'm so tired of the same stories.
How many more cop shows do we need to see?
I mean, I just feel like there's so many stories out there
and you know, to quote Thomas King,
is my other project,
you know, is about Thomas King's work.
He says, "Stories are all we are."
And yet once you put a story out there,
you can't call it back.
Stories can be beautiful and celebratory.
Stories can also be dangerous, you know?
So what are the...
What's our responsibility to each other
in the stories we're telling.
And I think stories can be instrumental
in how we move forward.
- Agreed.
Joel,
if "Trickster" had been on television,
when you were growing up in Medicine Hat,
what would've that meant to you as a young adult?
- Trickster is almost like,
he's almost like a superhero in aspects aspects of things.
You know, I would've probably thrown away
like Spider man, Superman.
I'd probably like, Jared Trickster
would probably be like my role model you know.
I probably would have been like
dressing up as raven for Halloween
or like something like that.
I would've took a lot of inspiration from him
and look...
Like I would have seen a person,
you know, of my ethnicity
and I would've learned a lot more
about native culture at a younger age.
And I would have been exposed to it.
And I would've you know,
been on a path to discovery on native culture a lot sooner.
and feel like it was (mumbles).
- We talked about how much the industry needs to grow
and although this is something
that definitely needs to be celebrated,
there is a lot of work to be done.
And I wonder what your thoughts are, Michelle,
in terms of the audience's role in all of this.
What do you hope that Canadian audiences take away
from watching this series?
- Well, I hope they enjoy it across the board,
indigenous people and non-indigenous,
and then that translates into audiences and numbers
so that we can show the networks
that this isn't just about checking a diversity box.
This is actually we can make sustainable television
that's entertaining and that can profit.
And unfortunately, profit often in this culture
seems to be like the one thing
we really put above everything else.
But it's also about like celebrating where we come from,
what makes up Canada,
what are our value systems.
And I think you know,
Trickster does that.
But it's doing it in an entertaining way.
Like it's bringing up a lot of different issues
that we might normally see in the news,
but we get to enjoy it through genre and genre fiction.
And I think that's a...
There's so many ways to tell a good story as we know,
from sitting around the fire and listening to our elders,
there's so many great stories to be had
that I think we're ready to do that.
Like push the boundaries of that.
- You're talking about genre,
which I think is an interesting entryway point
to this story obviously.
And I wanted to understand how you kind of
addressed the more and shot the surreal aspects of it.
obviously on paper,
it's one thing,
but as a director and creator,
turning those surreal elements
and putting them on screen.
Is it what you imagined when reading the book?
And what did you feel like you got right?
- Well, it's very challenging
'cause Eden's book is sprawling
and there's so many worlds
and there's many characters
and different kinds of spirits and monsters.
And as Eden likes to say,
"I never have to think about budget
"when I'm creating a book."
But of course we have to think about budget.
So I mean, I enjoyed creating the characters
and being influenced by
like by nature.
And by going to those experiences in my childhood
and drawing from that.
I think the challenge was,
we only could shoot about five days in Kitimat
and because of the way our financing structures are here,
most of our money came from
The Northern Ontario Heritage Fund.
But meant we had to film in Northern Ontario.
So we had to match North Bay to look like British Columbia.
And so a lot of work went into like location scouting,
VFXing mountains into locations.
We had to color correct down
'cause we were shooting in the fall in Ontario.
So, and yet everything was so lush and green
in British Columbia.
So thinking about how to make sort of a seamless world
that was challenging and I think we got it right.
I think it works.
I don't think people would know
which things we'd shot in British Columbia
and which we shot in Northern Ontario.
And also we worked on Nipissing First Nation
which I was really proud of
because we could...
And in Kitimat village as well.
So we could really have indigenous people involved
at every level.
You know, including the land we were on.
- And something that really drew me to the series
when I first watched it,
is how cinematic it is.
Is that something you were thinking about going into it?
You mentioned you doing all the visual effects
that needed to go out of the characters.
The vastness of the story.
Was that a big attraction to it for you?
- Absolutely.
I think some of the most powerful moments in my life,
both in a good way and in a bad way,
have been when I'm in an environment
and I'm just blown away and awed
by the expansiveness of the land.
And that can happen in a beautiful scenario.
Like you're living at the grand Canyon going,
"This is a miracle."
Or the night sky going,
"This is a miracle."
And it can also happen in a tragic way.
Like the first time I saw the Alberta tar sands,
I was just blown away by the destruction.
The man-made destruction.
And I think that's kind of what I'm trying to do.
The land as a character in the film,
In "Trickster".
And I'm also trying to draw attention to like,
what are the monsters we are afraid of
through our mythology?
And what are the monsters maybe we should be more afraid of
within ourselves?
Like our own greed and consumption and that sort of thing.
- No, that's a great way of thinking of it.
And this idea of when you watch the series,
I think understanding, yeah,
the lines between monsters are completely blurred.
The idea of the human monsters in it all,
but also the identity that a trickster can take.
The human identity that a trickster can take.
That is challenging you as an audience
to really grasp what you're seeing.
Joel, have you seen the whole series at this point
and yeah, what are your thoughts?
Obviously seeing yourself on screen.
That's got to be extremely exciting
and the world is about to see you on screen as well.
- Yeah, I haven't seen the full series yet,
but when I went to like the ADR stuff,
it was really weird seeing yourself on the screen.
But really cool.
I don't know.
It was kinda hard to watch it all at the same time though.
It's hard not to little cringe at yourself sometimes.
But I mean,
It's really cool though.
- So when seeing yourself on screen,
did you have that reaction of like,
"I could have done that better."
And wanting the second shot at maybe one or two instances?
- Yeah, you are your little self critic,
like your ultimate...
You're the like,
you're the most...
your ultimate self critic you know.
so I feel like every little thing
that you could say that you could do better,
but I just accept it for what it is
and I'm confident in how I acted in it
and of course you could...
you'd think that you could...
You want to go back and change some things,
but you know, overall it's just awesome.
And I feel like it's only little stuff
that like how I'm going to look at myself
and I'm the only one that's going to know
and to like want to change and stuff but...
- (mumbles)
Yeah completely.
I think you were amazing in this
and your...
And as the lead and such a young lead,
your ability to carry this story is fantastic.
And I think audience should be really exciting
as Michelle mentioned earlier,
that we're going to get to see a second season.
So my last question,
I guess for Michelle is,
when the second season starts shooting?
And what do you maybe want to do differently in this season?
- Well, I am writing as we speak.
Can you see the bags under my eyes?
(all laughing)
I'm now in writing, writing, writing,
and we will go into prep early like late this year
and start shooting sort of spring 2021.
And what do I want to do differently?
Well, we have three beautiful books.
I just was sent the first pages
of Eden's third book the other day.
So we have a wealth of material to draw from.
I think audience can expect to see more monsters
and more...
Jared definitely goes on even more of a journey
than first season.
And yeah, just sort of more surprise,
more world's opening up as happens in Eden's books.
- Well, I am very excited about this.
And audiences who just saw this for the first time,
I'm guessing will be as well.
So thanks so much for this
and congratulations on your series premiering at TIFF
and in Primetime.
- Thank you very much. - Thank you.
- It's really an honor.