WELCOME BACK.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MY NEXT GUESTS TONIGHT ARE THE PULITZER
PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALISTS WHO BROKE THE HARVEY WEINSTEIN STORY
FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES."
THEIR NEW BOOK ABOUT THAT AND THE REVOLUTIONARY #MeToo
MOVEMENT THAT FOLLOWED IN ITS IS CALLED "SHE SAID."
PLEASE WELCOME JODI KANTOR AND MEGAN TWOHEY!
♪ ♪ ♪
>> Stephen: HI.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> WE'RE GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> Stephen: I HAVE FOLLOWED YOUR WORK CLOSELY, ESPECIALLY
THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AND I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO
YOUR BOOK, SOME OF WHICH I HAVE READ ALREADY.
IT'S CALLED "SHE SAID."
AND IT'S ABOUT BREAKING THE SEXUAL HARASSMENT STORY THAT
HELPED IGNITE A MOVEMENT.
YOU BOTH WON THE PULITZER PRIZE IN 2018.
NOT FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING, BUT FOR PUBLIC SERVICE.
WHICH IS THE BEST PULITZER PRIZE, RIGHT?
( APPLAUSE )
IS THAT THE BEST ONE?
>> IT MEANT A LOT TO US.
>> Stephen: IT'S THE BEST ONE.
THIS REPORTING THAT YOU DID-- JUST TO REMIND EVERYBODY-- IT
IGNITED A MOVEMENT, A CHANGE IN OUR VINICULTURE AND HAD
RAMIFICATIONS ACROSS NOT ONLY HARVEY WEINSTEIN'S INDUSTRY BUT
ACROSS MANY, AND MANY PEOPLE'S LIVES.
WHEN YOU WENT TO PUBLISH THAT ORIGINAL ARTICLE, DID YOU KNOW
WHAT WAS COMING IN ITS WAKE?
>> WE-- WE HAD NO IDEA.
ALL WE KNEW AT THE "NEW YORK TIMES" IN 2017 IS THAT WE WERE
COMMITTED TO INVESTIGATING SEXUAL HARASSMENT ACROSS A
VARIETY OF INDUSTRIES FROM HOLLYWOOD TO SILICON VALLEY, TO
THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY, AND EVEN THE AUTO PLANTS.
BUT WE HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE IMPACT OF THOSE INVESTIGATIONS
WERE GOING TO BE WHATSOEVER.
>> Stephen: THIS BOOK NOW IS BEING CALLED AN "ALL THE
PRESIDENT'S' MEN" OF THE #MeeToo ERA.
WHY TELL THE STORY BEHIND THE STORY YOU TOLD.
>> BECAUSE THESE STORIES HAVE COME TO MEAN SO MUCH TO SO MANY
PEOPLE, WE WANTED TO BRING EVERYBODY ELSE WITH US ON THIS
JOURNEY.
FIRST OF ALL, A LOT OF WHAT ORIGINALLY HAPPENED IN THIS
INVESTIGATION WAS OFF THE RECORD.
SO WE NEEDED TO GO BACK AND FIND A WAY TO SHARE THOSE SECRETS AND
TO BRING PEOPLE THROUGH THE PROCESS AND REALLY SHOW YOU WHAT
WE WITNESSED TO BRING YOU INTO OUR PARTNERSHIP, HAVE YOU THERE
IN OUR OFFICE DURING THE FINAL CONFRONTATIONS WITH HARVEY
WEINSTEIN.
AND, ALSO, WE WANTED TO PUSH FURTHER BECAUSE THE INITIAL
INVESTIGATION SHOWED A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.
BUT THERE WERE SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS: HOW COULD
A COMPANY, THE WEINSTEIN COMPANY, BECOME SO EXPLICIT IN
ABUSE, FOR EXAMPLE?
THAT'S A STORY ABOUT THE WEINSTEIN COMPANY, BUT IT'S ALSO
A STORY ABOUT ALL OF OUR WORKPLACES, IF YOU SEE SOME SORT
OF WRONGDOING IN YOUR WORKPLACE, WHAT DO YOU DO?
>> Stephen: TELL ME ABOUT THE FINAL CONFRONTATIONS WITH HARVEY
WEINSTEIN.
WHAT KIND OF INTIMIDATIONS DID HE, AND I ASSUME THE COMPANY,
BRING TO BEAR AGAINST YOU GUYS?
>> HE AMASSED A GROUP OF HIGH-POWERED LAWYERS WHO WERE
GOING TO THREATEN US WITH A LAWSUIT IF WE WENT FORWARD WITH
OUR STORY.
HE HIRED A PRIVATE INVESTIGATIVE FIRM MADE UP OF FORMER ISRAELI
PROFESSIONAL INDIVIDUALS PROMISED $300,000 IF THEY PUT A
STOP ON OUR INVESTIGATION.
AND IN THE 11th HOUR, AS WE PREPARED TO PUBLISH, HARVEY
WEINSTEIN BASICALLY BARG BARGED "NEW YORK TIMES" HIMSELF,
FOLLOWED BY SOME OF HIS LAWYERS AND FOLDERS AND INFORMATION HE
WAS HOPING TO USE TO SMEAR HIS ACCUSERS.
>> Stephen: WE'RE COMING UP-- THIS WAS IN OCTOBER OF 2017,
RIGHT?
SO WE'RE COMING UP ON THE TWO-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE
PUBLICATION OF THIS STORY AND THE IGNITING OF THE #MeeToo
MOVEMENT-- THE HASHTAG TOO, AND THE IDEA EXISTED BEFOREHAND,
BUT THIS REALLY AMPLIFIED IT, AND IT BECAME A NATIONAL
MOVEMENT.
SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT IT'S GONE TOO FAR, THAT SOME WE'LL GET
SWEPT UP IN THE DESIRE TO CHANGE THE CULTURE AND SEXUALLY
DYNAMICS CERTAINLY IN THE WORKPLACE, AND THAT THERE HAVE
BEEN CASUALTIES ALONG THE WAY, THAT IT'S GONE TOO FAR.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THOSE ASSESSMENTSES?
>> WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN OUR REPORTING IS THERE'S A MOUNTING
SENSE OF UNFAIRNESS ON BOTH SIDES.
AND, ACTUALLY, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY FEES THAT OUR SYSTEM
WORKS FOR THE ACCUSED OR THE ACCUSERS.
BASICALLY, THERE ARE THREE QUESTIONS ABOUT #MeeToo THAT
REMAIN TOTALLY UNRESOLVED.
ONE IS WHAT IS THE SCOPE OF THE BEHAVIORS UNDER SCRUTINY?
ARE WE ONLY TALKING ABOUT REALLY SEVERE CASES OF SEXUAL ASSAULT,
RAPE?
OR IS THIS ALSO ABOUT BAD DATES?
SECOND OF ALL, HOW DO WE GET THE FACTS RIGHT?
HOW DO WE GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENED, WHAT KIND
OF INFORMATION DO WE TRUST AND NOT TRUST IN TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT WHAT HAPPENED?
AND THEN THE THIRD IS WHAT SHOULD PUNISHMENT OR
ACCOUNTABILITY LOOK LIKE?
AND ALL THREE OF THOSE QUESTIONS ARE REALLY CONTROVERSIAL.
AND -- >> Stephen: AND THE ANSWERS TO
ALL THREE ARE...
>> I MEAN, CLEARLY WE'RE GOING TO SETTLE THIS RIGHT HERE ASK
RIGHT NOW.
>> Stephen: EXACTLY, BEFORE THE COMMERCIAL BREAK RIGHT NOW.
>> LOOK, THE CONTRIBUTION THAT WE CAN MAKE IS THAT WE'RE
JOURNALISTS AND YOU CAN'T SOLVE A PROBLEM YOU CAN'T SEE.
AND WE WILL KEEP REPORTING SO THAT WE CAN REPORT THE TRUE
HISTORY OF WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.
>> Stephen: YOU ARE JOURNALISTS, AND YOU TALK ABOUT
THAT IN TERMS OF YOUR NEED TO ACTUALLY KNOW.
IN RESPONSE TO THE IDEA THAT IS A VERY WELL-MEANING ONE THAT I
THINK HAS A VERY POSITIVE EFFECT OVERALL, WHICH IS BELIEVE WOMEN.
BUT POINT OUT THAT AS JOURNALISTS, YOU'VE GOT A
DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARD BELIEVING.
WHAT IS THE MOTTO THAT ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES HAS ON HIS DESK?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY, ONE OF MY REPORTERRIZE GOT MY START
AT A NEWSPAPER IN WISCONSIN, AND MY EDITOR USED TO HAVE A SAYING
PINNED OVER HIS DESK WHICH WAS, "IF YOUR MOTHER TELLS YOU SHE
LOVES YOU, CHECK IT OUT," WHICH I THINK-- WHICH I THINK SPEAKS
TO AT LEAST WHEN WE AS REPORTERS APPLY TO ALL OF THE WORK THAT WE
DO WHEN IT COMES TO REPORTING ALLEGATIONS OF ANY KIND.
I MEAN, WE REALLY APPLY A VERY RIGOROUS PROCESS OF
CORROBORATION AND DUE DILIGENCE, AND EVEN IN THE END, GOING TO
THE ACCUSERS-- EXCUSE ME, TO THE ACCUSED-- TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE
ADEQUATE TIME TO RESPOND SO WE CAN ENSURE ACCURACY AND
FAIRNESS.
EVEN WHEN IT INVOLVES HARVEY WEINSTEIN BARGING INTO THE "NEW
YORK TIMES," WE'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS TO MAKE
SURE WIRE PRODUCING AIR-TIGHT STORY S.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO ATTACK A LITTLE BIT OF A BREAK.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH MORE JODI KANTOR AND MEGAN TWOHEY.
WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHERE WE GO FROM HERE.