[Reporter] To the world, he is Appa.
The stubborn, blunt but well-meaning immigrant dad
just trying to make a life in Toronto
running Kim's Convenience
but what started as a fringe festival play
with Paul Sun-Hyung Lee and Jean Yoon in the lead roles...
You just have to be nice.
I am nice.
[Reporter] quickly became a much bigger deal.
That's a rule.
That's how they doing in that country
yeah
[Reporter] Season after season.
They're gender-neutral.
Who?
I only see one person.
[Reporter] after season.
[Lee] When communities and people see themselves reflected
up on the screens
it means they've moved from the margins
into the forefront
and it gives them a voice
[Reporter] But it all ended suddenly
and under a dark cloud.
The co-creators leaving.
The production company deciding it couldn't continue
and the cast members feeling blindsided.
Angry even.
It's left the show's fans with one big question:
Why quit now?
I sat down to chat with Paul Sun-Hyung Lee
just hours before the last episode aired.
I don't even know where to start to be honest with you
because this must be an awfully weird day for you
it's been very surreal
right from the get-go
not gonna lie
how how are you feeling?
um I'm okay
I think it's
it's funny because I think there are so many mixed emotions
and so many things to unpack still
I mean since
it's been a few weeks now
since the announcement the show isn't continuing
and it's been a process
like it's I and I akin to grieving a death
in the family because
you have these waves of emotions
that overwhelm you at times
and you're upset at how it ended
but then you remember the good times
and you want to build on that and so
it comes and it goes
as time goes on though it
you know the pain hurts a little bit less
but there are certain moments that just sort of flash you back
like you know the final episode airing tonight
it just makes it so final and so real in some ways
and you think you've dealt with it
but obviously there's still a lot of emotion involved
but I'm looking forward to next steps
I'm looking forward to the future
I'm excited about possibilities
and I want to take all the good from Kim's Convenience
uh with me
instead of just dwelling on how it ended
well you talk about likening this to mourning a death
and you know some deaths you see coming
and some you don't
did you have any inkling at all
when you were filming the last episode of the season
that it might be the last episode of the series?
no no not whatsoever
that that was the hardest that's been the hardest thing
is feeling robbed of the chance of like
even if we'd had some inkling
maybe to just soak it in a little bit more
or to just appreciate it a little bit more
I mean we were shooting -- season five was shot under duress
it was during a pandemic
everybody was physically separated from each other through PPE
through distance
we weren't able to interact with each other
the same way we had been in previous seasons
and not only for the cast
but for the crew and the administrative department
and so it felt very disconnected shooting it
but we were immensely proud that we've been able to pull it off in a sense and then to get the news that that's it uh is heartbreaking because
you never get a chance -- you didn't
we didn't get a chance to say goodbye
and we never got a chance to do our victory lap
and to celebrate all these moments and
to have that
um closure in a sense
and so when it suddenly yanked away from you
it's very jarring
and uh it's hurtful
it hurts
it hurts your heart because
you this is something that was part of my life for five years
ten if you count the play
and for have it
to have it end so unceremoniously
um it was painful
So what happened, paul?
Uh, like on this decision to cut the series short
so I've heard a few different accounts
I mean some that the co-creator Ins Choi
was sort of simply burning out on this
but you've also said that
that you tried reaching out to him
and there was a time where he wasn't even returning your calls
which sort of left a lot of us wondering so
so what actually was happening
yeah it's a I mean
like everything it wasn't like a design plan to end the show
and there was no mustache-twirling villain behind it
it was just
it's a complicated situation
but I wanted to reach out to Ins
and just find out, hey you know
I didn't want to
didn't want to try to change his mind
he made his decision
but I kind of felt that I would have liked to have known
uh or I felt like garnered the trust
because after all this time spent together
working on this project and championing it
and championing him and everything
I just kind of thought
that would have been
just for my own sake
I would have loved that
but uh he wouldn't return my calls
so so to this day Paul
do you even have a full understanding
of why it all kind of fell apart
I don't know the whole story
I will be the first to admit that
I know a bunch of it I know what I know
um and that's from my perspective again
it's very complicated
you look at it from different perspectives
there's so many different factors that come into play
with the cessation of this show
it wasn't an easy decision
I don't envy the producers at all
CBC was a great support
they wanted the show
very much so
they had greenlit season six
so it wasn't a network decision
um but it's complicated
it's really really complicated
and at this time right now it's just
I don't see the point of dredging it all up right now
I think it's just it's too raw
it's too emotional
I think with time comes perspective as well
uh cooler heads can prevail
I know I'm still emotional about it
some of the other cast members are as well
but at the same token it's like
to what end would that serve it
I really wanted to sort of turn the page
in a sense um
and take the good from Kim's Convenience
all the groundbreaking work that we did
all the barriers that we broke through
the representation that we showed
and take that with me instead of how it ended
now I think there's a time and a place for that discussion too
because I think for the industry to grow and evolve
and to protect and nurture BIPOC artists behind the camera as well
this is a hard conversation that needs to be had
that's the only way to grow
and it's not going to be it shouldn't be about finger-pointing
or you didn't do this or you didn't do that this
Kim's was the first show of its kind
and the first show is always going to make mistakes
but for us to grow as an industry
we need to learn from those mistakes
without judgment
without people tsk-tsking
we're all human beings and we made decisions
that maybe weren't the best in the long run
but worked at the time
and so it's all a learning process
and that's my biggest hope of everything that comes out of this
this messy ending for Kim's
is that with time in perspective
we can learn from this and grow the industry
and have so many more shows like Kim's succeed uh
and sort of exceed where we went
because they've learned the lessons from us
I think that's best-case scenario
and that's this is something I hold my heart
that I truly want
I mean I hear what you're saying
but I still can't figure out why in my head
like why there wasn't a way
for this to continue
right
private matters are going to stay private
I understand the departure of Ins Choi for whatever reason
but it seems like so many of the major players wanted this to keep going so
so why couldn't it keep going?
It's again it's a really it's complicated
and I think when you have human beings in the equation
it gets messy
I mean I certainly wanted this show to go on
I know a number of the cast wanted the show to go on
um the network did
but we were running out of time basically
and to put on uh a high-quality show
at the caliber that we're used to
uh we would have needed more a little bit more time
and um you know it's a big blow when the show creator leaves the show
it's that's a big blow to the show
I mean there are instances in
uh you know in the industry where showrunners have left the show
and they're replaced by other showrunners
but Kim's was so unique
because you had an all Asian cast
and if you don't have someone who's Asian
who's part of the producing team
the optics look terrible too
and you want that authenticity
we need that authenticity for the show
unfortunately the industry the way it is
it's very difficult to find somebody of that calibre
to step in and replace someone like Ins Choi
um and so it's it's
it's it's a whole uh a convoluted mess
of you know really and
I think it really highlights the need
to be training and developing
and growing BIPOC producers, showrunners, writers
because they need
we need the experience
we need to build up uh our experience and our craft as well
so that we're in a position to succeed
instead of just being plucked up and dropped into the deep end
and it's sink or swim
that is that does a disservice to everyone
I think
and so I've always argued that too we want to set up people to succeed
and it's a lot of work and it doesn't happen overnight
but steps have to be taken
and we did take steps at Kim's
but obviously they weren't enough
so that's a lesson to be learned
I'm not saying that there was no attempt at all
but what we did at the end of the day
we didn't have anybody from within
who's qualified enough to step up
or so the producers believe
the legacy of Kim's is absolutely jaw-dropping you know
I could tell you what I see when I see the show
but I more want to know what you see
when you see not just the show
but when you see a billboard
with the Kim's family on it right
when you see a subway ad
when you see a tv commercial
what do you see?
I see my family
I see my peers
I see community people
who haven't had a voice
it fills me with pride um
it's overwhelming
it's over
and it just accents the fact that
this type of representation matters more
more so than ever
the normalization of entire groups of people
shouldn't be an issue in the 21st century
we're all human beings at the end of the day
and this politic of divisiveness
this scapegoating this blame
this blaming of others
is in my mind heartbreaking and so
infuriatingly lazy
because when you refuse to see a group of people
for people as individuals
it's heartbreaking
because it's too easy to just throw blame to something else
and not put any critical thought into it
or really examine why you're upset
and instead seeing what's going on
this permission to act out
that's heartbreaking for me
and I think we've developed this culture where it's okay to be like that
it's okay to be nasty, to punch down
and what we really need more and more
is kindness
shows like Kim's Convenience were about family
were about love
we're about kindness
um and so when I see posters of that I'm filled with immense pride
one of my favourite things of going to CBC
is to see that big poster Kim's Convenience
and my big stupid face up there
um because it it brings me joy
and I think it brings a level of comfort and joy to a lot of other people
I am so proud of the work that I've done on that show
I'll always hold my head up high for that
and there's something that no one can ever take away from me
when I see the show
that is exactly what strikes me
every single episode
that this is a family of people
that that looks like you
that looks like me
and they are normal people
they are kind people
they are warm people
on the other hand, you know
you mentioned this too
I think of the pandemic
I think how I see people who look like you
and people who look like me getting hurt
and I'm left wondering like
what am I supposed to think here right
like how many steps forward have we taken
how many steps backwards have we taken
you know
yeah I
it's heartbreaking again
and it's infuriating
and it's maddening
and it's bewildering
it's shocking
I mean why
um and it feels like it's just flaring up again
and it's I think it just goes to show
that as forward-thinking as we think we've gone
become as a society
there's really a lot more work to do
and I think right now too
with mass media
with everybody holding a studio
basically a television studio in their pockets
able to record transmit
let their thoughts go out there
you can amplify
uh just as much as you can amplify good thought
you can amplify a negative thought
and we need as a society to learn to navigate that
to really be critical in our own thinking
I only have time for one more question
so I gotta ask about
what's next for Paul Sun-Hyung Lee?
I mean like
I'm looking behind you I see stormtroopers
I see I see a lot of really cool stuff
that I wish I could get a closer view of
what's next for you ?
Well, we'll have you over once a pandemic is over
you know I've got a lot of things on the go right now
I can't talk about some of it
uh others I am able to talk about
um I'm leaning into the whole geek culture
this is a part of me that I've had
carried for so long
and a lot of people are still really surprised about
because they know me as Appa
and so I love that juxtaposition of being a total nerd
it literally in my basement
with all these geeky collectibles and toys
and playing this patriarch
uh internationally who's known as being a bit of a hard ass
and who doesn't understand this culture at all
so I love that so I'm leaning to
I've got a youtube channel called Bitter Asian Dude Inc.
and I've got a segment called My Geeky Basement uh
in fact tonight after the episode i'm doing my first ever live stream
and I'm inviting all the fans
and I've got some OG Kimbits
Fans from the very beginning
and they're going to be my guests
because I think the fans have made the show
and from the bottom of my heart to all the fans out there
who've spread the word
who've lived with us
who've let us into their homes
thank you
and that's the biggest thing too I'm going to take away from Kim's
is all the wonderful people and fans I've met
and the friends that I've made through it
and so that's what's next
is just sort of rediscovering me
and getting me out there
um and just connecting with people
well Paul, uh thank you
and I don't just mean that for this interview
I mean it generally
thank you
thanks
appreciate it