>>> COMING UP TONIGHT ON "CONNECTING POINT," SOME LOCAL
PERSPECTIVE ON THE SENATE REPORT ABOUT SKYE TREATMENT OF ALLEGED
ROSSIS.
>> IF ANYTHING COMES OUT OF THIS REPORT, THAT THE CIA WAS LED BY
SOME PROFOUNDLY STUPID PEOPLE.
>> AN ORGANIZATION THAT HELPS OUR EXPHI MAKES DREAMS COME
TRUE.
>> WHAT WE REALLY DO IS WHAT A BANK CAN'T DO IS OFFER BUSINESS
ASSISTANCE.
>> AND THE EFFORT TO RESTORE A PIECE OF SPRINGFIELD HISTORY.
>> THIS IS MEANT TO BE THE FIRST OF WHAT WILL BE MANY THINGS TO
REALLY BRING THE ARMORY BACK TO BEING THAT MARQUEE PLACE IT WAS
AT ONE TIME AND CAN BE IN THE FUTURE.
>> THAT'S ALL NEXT ON "CONNECTING POINT."
>>> "CONNECTING POINT" IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE MEMBERS OF
WGBY AND BY -- >> COUNTRY BANK, AN INDEPENDENT,
FULL SERVICE COMMUNITY FOCUSED FINANCIAL INSTITUTION.
SINCE 1850 COUNTRY BANK HAS SERVED THE FINANCIAL NEEDS OF
PEOPLE AND BUSINESSES AND SUPPORTED INITIATIVES THAT
ENRICH THE QUALITY OF LIFE IN OUR REGION.
COUNTRY BANK, OUR HOME IS YOUR HOME.
THE CENTER SQUARE GRILL IN EAST LONGMEADOW SPECIALIZING IN THE
LOST ART OF DINING SERVING DINNER ALL WEEK.
>>> GOOD EVENING.
WELCOME TO "CONNECTING POINT."
I'M JIM MADIGAN.
LAST MONTH THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE RELEASED
A SCATHING REPORT ABOUT CIA TORTURE OF PRISONERS ALLEGED TO
BE TERRORISTS.
I SAT DOWN WITH MOUNT HOLYOKE PROFESSOR OF POLITICS
CHRISTOPHER PYLE, AUTHOR OF "GETTING AWAY WITH TORTURE" WHO
TOLD US HE WASN'T SURPRISED BY ANYTHING IN THE SENATE COMMITTEE
FINDINGS.
>> ALTHOUGH NOW IT'S EXTREMELY WELL DOCUMENTED.
BUT ONLY DOCUMENT WOULD FROM DOCUMENTS THEMSELVES, MAINLY
EMAILS.
THEY DID NOT -- THE COMMITTEE DID NOT INTERVIEW ANY CIA
OFFICIALS.
THERE WAS A REASON FOR THAT.
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT LAUNCHED ITS OWN CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION
SO THAT THE COMMITTEE, THE SENATE COMMITTEE, COULD NOT
ACQUIRE THEM AS WITNESSES.
>> YOU MENTIONED TO ME BEFORE THE TAPING, ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT BOTHERS YOU, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU ARE DISAPPOINT IN IN
BOTH THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE AND THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION, IS THAT YOU FEEL CLEARLY BY DESIGN, THIS REPORT
COMES OUT WHEN IT DOES, PAST THE DATE FOR STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.
NOBODY IN THE GOVERNMENT, NOBODY IN THE CIA, NO CONTRACTOR WITH
THE GOVERNMENT CAN BE PROSECUTED.
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
OF COURSE, WE COULD REPEAL OR EXTEND THE STATUTE OF
LIMITATIONS AND REPEAL THE AMNESTY STATUTE THAT
GEORGE W. BUSH SIGNED.
THAT WOULD MAKE PROSECUTIONS POSSIBLE.
BUT THAT'S NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN.
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS FIRMLY BEHIND TORTURE.
>> THAT'S A PRETTY SWEEPING AND TOUGH STATEMENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN
YOU MENTION THAT THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE RIGHT NOW
IT IS THE MAJORITY OF DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE, NOT FOR MUCH
LONGER, AND THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, SO SEEMS LIKE
BOTH PARTIES ARE PLAYING A PART IN THIS.
>> NO QUESTION.
NO QUESTION.
THEY DON'T WANT TO CONFRONT THIS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY AT 9 HIGHEST
LEVEL.
>> LET ME TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID.
THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THEIR JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DELVED INTO
IT.
THEY ARE NOT ALLOWING THE QUESTIONING, THEY DIDN'T ALLOW
QUESTIONING BY THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, IF I
UNDERSTAND YOU RIGHT, OF THE CIA OFFICIALS, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
REALLY DIRECTLY INVOLVED, AT GROUND LEVEL, THE RUBBER MEETS
THE ROAD, WHATEVER CLICHE I CAN THINK OF.
THEY BOTCHED THAT.
>> YES, BUT THAT'S BOGUS BECAUSE MOST CIA PEOPLE COULD HAVE BEEN
INTERVIEWED AT ANY TIME THEY WISHED SIMPLY BY MAKING A PHONE
CALL TO CAPITOL HILL, SAYING, I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT
THIS.
THE COMMITTEE WOULD HAVE BEEN DELIGHTED TO HAVE THEM.
BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE THEY, IF THEY SAID SOMETHING,
THEY MIGHT INCRIMINATE THEMSELVES.
SO NO SENSE TALKING TO THE SENATE COMMITTEE AND PUTTING ON
RECORD INCRIMINATING STATEMENTS.
>> YOU HAVE, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY, TREMENDOUS PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE IN THIS WHOLE AREA.
YOU SERVED IN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE.
I BELIEVE YOU WERE STAFF WITH JAG IN YEARS PAST.
YOU WERE ON THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE STAFF 40
YEARS AGO WHERE YOU BECAME KNOWN AS A WHISTLE BLOWER.
YOU PUT OUT WORD OF MILITARY SURVEILLANCE OF CITIZENS IN THE
VIETNAM AND POST-VIETNAM ERICA YOU SAY AFTER EVERYTHING YOU
HAVE SEEN, THE TEACHING YOU HAVE DONE, TORTURE JUST DOESN'T MAKE
SENSE, DOESN'T GET YOU RELIABLE INFORMATION.
>> WELL, SUPPOSING IT DID GET YOU SOME RELIABLE INFORMATION.
WOULD YOU DARE TRUST IT?
WOULD YOU LEAD INTO BATTLE A GROUP OF YOUR FELLOW SOLDIERS ON
THE BASIS OF INFORMATION OBTAINED BY TORTURE?
I SURE WOULDN'T.
NOT IF YOU RESPECT YOUR SUBORDINATES.
YOU WOULD NEVER DO THAT.
THAT'S THE TROUBLE WITH TORTURE.
NOT IT MIGHT NOT WORK OCCASIONALLY LOT SENATE
COMMITTEE FOUND IT HADN'T WORKED IN ANY OF THE INSTANCES THAT THE
CIA CITED.
BUT EVEN IF IT DID WORK, AND BESIDES, THERE'S CERTAIN THINGS
GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT DO.
WOULD YOU SAY THAT WE SHOULD USE CHEMICAL WARFARE BECAUSE
CHEMICAL WARFARE DOES KILL PEOPLE?
I DON'T THINK SO.
NUCLEAR WARFARE?
BECAUSE IT WOULD KILL THE ENEMY?
NO.
BECAUSE THESE TECHNIQUESES HAVE BLOWBACK EFFECTS.
AND ONE I THINK I CAN BE FAIRLY CONFIDENT ABOUT IS WITH THE USE
OF TORTURE RECRUITED A LOT OF SEW SIDE -- SUICIDE BOMBERS FOR
LOOMIS CHAFFEE & THAT ILLS PROFOUND OH LEIGH STUPID.
IT WAS DRIVEN MORE BY REVENGE THAN YOU'RE YOTSITY.
>> FORMER 1R-79 DICK CHENEY, ONE OF THE ARCHITECTS TO THE 9-1-1
RESPONSE, IN 2001, HE'S APPEARED WITH BOTH NBC AND FOX NEWS SINCE
THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE REPORT.
HE SAYS VALUABLE INFORMATION WAS DUANEED, WHAT IS CALLED THE
LEGAL DEFINITION OF THAT ACTIVITY.
HE SAYS A PRACTICE THAT IS SPECIFICALLY MEANT TO ENDANGER A
PRISONER OR DETAINEES' WELL-BEING AND LIFE, THEIR
SURVIVAL.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT SAYS THE SITUATION LED TO A PRISONER
DYING OF EXPOSURE NOT LEGALLY TORTURE SINCE WHAT WAS DONE WAS
NOT SOMETHING THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE CONSIDERED DEADLY.
IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY.
WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT KIND OF REASONING?
>> UNPRINTABLE.
>> FAIR ENOUGH.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE LIKE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY AND
OTHERS WHO MIGHT AGREE WITH THEM, WHO SAY IT'S A TOUGH
WORLD, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THAT WANT TO HURT THE
UNITED STATES AND OUR CITIZENS, WE HAVE TO PLAY AS ROUGH AND
TOUGH AS THEY DO TO COMPETE WITH AND ULTIMATELY BEAT THEM.
WHAT DO YOU NEY.
>> I SAW YOU ARE PROFOUNDLY STUPID.
IF YOU WANT INFORMATION TO BE USED FOR INTELLIGENCE PURPOSES,
THAT YOU CAN RELY UPON, YOU DO IT THE WAY THE FBI DOES IT.
YOU DON'T DO IT THE WAY THE CIA DID IT.
THE CIA SPENT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS LOOKING INTO VARIOUS IN
TEAR GAUGES TECHNIQUES IN THE 1950s AND CONCLUDED FROM ALL
OF THAT RESEARCH AND ALL OF THAT EXPERIMENTATION THAT YOU CANNOT
GET RELIABLE INFORMATION BY TORTURING PEOPLE.
IT WENT BEFORE THE CONGRESS IN 1989.
AND SAID AS MUCH.
BUT THEN WHEN 9/11 HAPPENED, ALL BETS WERE OFF.
THERE WAS AN ADMINISTRATION IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT WANTED
REVENGE.
THERE WERE PLENTY OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO WANTED REVENGE
FOR VERY GOOD REASONS THEY WANTED REVENGE.
BUT IT WAS STUPID.
BECAUSE REVENGE ONLY GETS YOU REPRISALS.
AND YOU JUST CREATE A SYSTEM OF RECIPROCAL VIOLENCE.
WITHOUT GETTING YOU INFORMATION.
>> FLIP SIDE OBVIOUSLY OF WHAT FORMER VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY AND
THOSE WHO AGREE WITH HIM SAID AND I THINK THIS IS MORE IN YOUR
CAMP, IF YOU WILL, PEOPLE WHO SAY WHATEVER THE OTHER SIDE,
WHATEVER THE TERRORIST IS DOING, THAT'S JUST NOT WHAT THE UNITED
STATES, WHAT A DEMOCRACY, WHAT A REPUBLIC SHOULD BE DOING.
IT'S NOT WHO WE ARE, WHAT WE PROFESS TO BE.
WE ARE A NATION FOUNDED ON PRINCIPLES AND LAW AND WE NEED
TO STICK TO THEM.
THAT IS A FAIR APPROXIMATION OF WHERE YOU FEEL?
>> I'M WITH JOHN McCAIN ON THAT, YES.
AND WITH GENERAL WASHINGTON IN 1775.
>> TALK ABOUT THAT.
HE BASICALLY TOLD HIS OFFICERS, WE ARE NOT GOING TO TORTURE OR
PUT TO DEATH PRISONERS OF WAR.
CORRECT?
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
AND HE SAID ANYBODY WHO DID THAT SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO THE MOST
SEVERE PENALTIES, INCLUDING DEATH.
SO THAT'S WHERE I THINK MR.
CHENEY WOULD FIT UNDER GEORGE WASHINGTON'S REGIME.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE FALLOUT F. THAT'S THE RIGHT
WORD, THE IMPACT ON AMERICA'S POSITION IN THE WORLD FROM THIS
REPORT CONFIRM, TORTURE?
IT'S JUST WHAT AL-QAEDA AND OTHERS OF THAT ILK HAVE ALWAYS
SAID WE ARE, WHAT THEY WERE.
WHAT DO YOU ANY.
>> WE ARE LIVING UP TO THEIR EXPECTATIONS AND IT HURTS US
WITH OUR RELATION WAS MANY, MANY OTHER COUNTRIES.
THE WAR ON TERRORISM, FOR REASON POLICY GENERALLY, IS A WAR
FOUGHT FOR THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF PEOPLE.
THE MORE THE UNITED STATES CAN ACT RESPONSIBLY, THE MORE
INFLUENCE IT HAS.
THE MORE IT ACTS BRUTALLY, THE LESS INFLUENCE IT HAS, THE MORE
TROUBLE IT HAS.
THE MORE SUICIDE BOMBERS IT FACES.
SO DOING THIS TO PEOPLE, WHATEVER YOUR MORE ALITY, IS
REALLY STUPID.
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GET YOU RELIABLE IN FELL GENERALS.
IT ONLY GETS
YOU TROUBLE.
>> THAT'S CHRISTOPHER PYLE, PROFESSOR OF POLITICS AT MOUNT
HOLYOKE COLLEGE.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND YOUR PERSPECTIVE.
>> THANK YOU, JIM.