WINFREY: For those of you who are too young or who
might not remember, the Reverend Jim Jones ordered
more than 900 of his followers to drink a poison-laced
grape beverage, making it the biggest mass
murder/suicide in history.
Jim Jones, his wife Marceline, two of their children,
and five of their grandchildren died that day.
Three of their sons were spared.
Here's how Jim Jones, Jr. remembers it.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: On November 18, 1978,
I was in Georgetown, Guyana, with the basketball team.
That is the day that my father radioed
to me that they were visiting Ms. Frazier,
which was code for committing suicide.
WINFREY: Jim and his two brothers were 150 miles
away from Jonestown playing in a
basketball tournament when he answered
his father's shocking call.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: I couldn't believe it,
and he told me that this is what he
planned to do.
I argued with him.
I said, "Can't there--isn't there another way?
Can't we do something else?"
My father told us to find knives,
piano wire, poison if we were
able to find it, and commit suicide.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: When I received those instructions
to kill myself, I didn't believe it.
I couldn't understand it.
I was concerned about my
loved ones, my family, my wife.
I didn't know if they would
drink the Kool-Aid.
WINFREY: Well, at the time of the massacre,
Jim Jones, Jr. was 18.
When you heard, you obviously refused
your father's command to kill yourself.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes.
WINFREY: And you tried to talk him out of it,
and then you went and told whom?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, we went to the US Embassy
and tried to find out what was going on.
You know, we had gotten the report of that
they were going to commit Ms. Frazier,
which is the code word for committing mass suicide.
WINFREY: Because he had those--had he had
practice runs before?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes. You know, in Jonestown prior,
they had practice drills of suicide,
and when I say practice drills of suicide,
it was test of loyalty, you know?
People would line up and, you know,
pledge their life to the cause.
WINFREY: Mm-hmm. And what was the cause?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, the cause was the non-isms.
WINFREY: Non-isms.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yeah. The non-isms.
When I say non-isms--non-racism,
non-sexism, non-ageism.
The class system of coming out
of the sixties and seventies,
we had this white versus black.
We had this haves and have-nots,
and that's what Peoples Temple really was.
WINFREY: So he was trying to create
a utopian society where,
"If you come with me,
you will not be discriminated against.
You will not, you know, have to
suffer because you're poor.
You won't have to, you know,
we're going to have the perfect society."
Mr. JONES, Jr.: "We're going to create a new world."
WINFREY: "We're going to create a new world,"
and that's what people believed.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yeah, and that's what I believed.
WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Were these smart people,
educated people?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, we're the whole gamut--doctors,
lawyers, teachers--but we also
had another gamut.
We had--I think Peoples Temple was,
like, almost 70% African-American,
and we were the vessel for African-Americans at that time.
WINFREY: But were there doctors
and lawyers who were African-American at the time?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes. Yes.
The common theme is, people
wanted to make a difference.
WINFREY: When were you adopted by Jim Jones?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Ten weeks old,
10 weeks old in Indiana.
WINFREY: Ten weeks old.
I heard you were the first black kid
ever adopted by a white family.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yeah. As the story goes,
I was the first African-American child
adopted by a Caucasian family staying together.
WINFREY: Look at you.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
It's been a long time, Oprah.
WINFREY: I understand. So, this was your father.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
and I loved him as a son.
I loved my father.
You know, I mean, I took great pride in being his son.
WINFREY: Hmm. Was it difficult being
the first black kid adopted by a
white family, or was it difficult...
Mr. JONES, Jr.: I didn't know.
WINFREY: You didn't know.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: No.
WINFREY: You didn't know you were black?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, no. Actually, Oprah, I didn't.
WINFREY: Okay. That's what I'm asking.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: No. I didn't because I had Koreans
in the family.
I just thought I had a better tan.
I really thought I...
WINFREY: Really?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yeah, because when
you have Koreans in your family,
they're a little darker than white,
but, you know, I had a
blond-haired, blue-eyed brother.
I had Homemade, the natural son.
I remember going to San Francisco...
WINFREY: Is that what y'all called him, Homemade?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, yeah.
I remember going to San Francisco
and seeing other African-Americans
and thinking that was my biological family.
WINFREY: Really?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Because that was--I mean,
there was no race in our family.
WINFREY: Uh-huh. There was no race in your family.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: You were Jimmy, Steve,
or Lew or whatever.
WINFREY: And that's why people were coming
to the church, because you could
be a part of something that wasn't...
Mr. JONES, Jr.: We were a rainbow family.
WINFREY: Okay.
WINFREY: We heard people on the tape
say during the last year, you could
see that Jim Jones was becoming more
and more detached and
more crazy, literally.
Could you see that as his son?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: You know, I probably was
one of the last true believers.
WINFREY: So you couldn't see the craziness.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: I didn't want to see it, Oprah.
I got to be honest.
I didn't want to see it.
I always thought the end justifies the means.
WINFREY: Okay. So I heard, too,
that he was having multiple affairs with
mistresses and had many mistresses and...
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes.
This went on for years prior to Jonestown.
I remember as a young child, in my
early teens, going on vacations and
going a week with a mistress with
my brothers and then my mother coming
for the second week.
WINFREY: Was your mother aware?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes, she was.
She was, and...
WINFREY: How did you justify that in your head?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, I didn't justify it,
but what I was told is people needed my father.
WINFREY: Mm-hmm. The women that he was with needed him.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yeah. Needed him, and so
you were resentful of that.
You were resentful of how it affected
your family, but then you also felt,
you know, he has to do this for the people.
You know, we're building a new world,
you know, so it's interesting to say,
but I drank the Kool-Aid before
it was even served.
WINFREY: Yeah, because you're indoctrinated by this man.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Exactly. That was my bubble.
WINFREY: Yes. That was your bubble.
So, what was it?
This is what none of us could understand
at the time and still today can't answer.
Why would 900 people agree to do that?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, Oprah, I can't answer that question
except I can just explain it to you,
the mind-set.
There's 900 people.
They had been told that Congressman Ryan
had been shot.
They had been told,
if you listen to the tapes,
people were going to come in and
take their children away.
They were going to separate.
They were going to invade our community,
and my father's words were,
"we needed to lay down our lives in protest,"
but what he does, very manipulative,
he has the children ingest the cyanide first.
And, Oprah, I mean,
I have three boys, and, I got to tell you,
if I saw my kids dying,
why would I want to live?
So, he created that vacuum.
When you see the syringes and needles,
I don't think everybody lined up, you know?
WINFREY: So, some people were forced
against their will is what you're saying,
and weren't there guards there to shoot
people if they didn't drink the Kool- Aid?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes. Yeah.
WINFREY: Yeah. So your wife and
your unborn child died that day.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Wife, unborn child, brother
and sister, their children, and then
my mother and father, Jim and Marceline.
WINFREY: Did you want to not live?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes.
WINFREY: Yeah. I would think you wouldn't.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: I mean, no.
I mean, to me, there was no reason to go forward.
WINFREY: Yeah.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: I came back to the States.
WINFREY: And why didn't you change your name?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, I did.
I did. I did. I went by James Jones,
very common, for many years, and it wasn't
until about 15 years later--
I'd gone to school and worked hard,
and I worked up my way
to be a director of a cardiopulmonary
department of a hospital, and because of
the acronyms behind my name,
they had to shorten "James,"
and they put, "Jim."
So, I walk up to my great,
new job as being a director of a department,
and I see "Jim Jones,"
and it was at that moment, Oprah,
that's who I am.
You know, I realized
that's who I am. I'm Jim Jones, Jr.
I am a part of an organization that tried
to build a new world.
I mean, 900 people died, Oprah,
and I miss them every day,
but I also recognize that they tried.
They tried something.
They failed horrifically,
but they tried, and out of that,
I took a lot of pride to realize,
"I'm Jim Jones, Jr.
I can't hide from that."
WINFREY: So you don't hate your father?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: You know, no. I don't.
You know, I've forgiven him.
WINFREY: You've forgiven him.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yeah, and I think...
WINFREY: Was he mentally ill?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes, and that's why I forgive him.
I think when you look at, you know,
the changes in him and what has happened...
WINFREY: Was it mentally ill,
or was he on drugs? Was he taking...
Mr. JONES, Jr.: I think it's almost like
having a cocktail.
The mental illness was exacerbated by
the drug abuse and the absolute power
where no one challenged him.
When you put that cocktail together and
the mind can spiral out of control,
and that's what Jim Jones did.
He spiraled out of control and self-destructed,
and by his self-destruction,
he took 900 people with him.
WINFREY: So, if you'd been in Jonestown on that day,
do you think you would've?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: You know, Oprah, I've asked that question,
and when I look at my wife, my mother,
my family, who ingested the Kool-Aid,
I cannot say I wouldn't have.
I--in respect of, they did it.
WINFREY: Well, the other thing is,
what choice would you have had?
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Well, why wouldn't I have
lined up, also?
Because I believed that we were going to be invaded.
WINFREY: Well, the point is, that we were
just discussing during the break when
we asked, and still are asking,
how do 900 people agree to do that,
they had already been brainwashed as you
had already been brainwashed.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: Yes.
WINFREY: And so, the fact that you all are practicing,
you know, suicide raids and, you know,
were this indoctrinated before,
that's why it was easy to carry out.
And, as you hear him on the tape,
Jim Jones saying,
"Quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly,"
doing it. Wow.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: And then when the kids died first, and...
WINFREY: And that was a part of the strategy,
having the children die first.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: That was part of the strategy.
Yeah. You know, how could I say,
well, I don't want to give up my
life when my child is...
WINFREY: Yeah, but it is still--
I have to tell you, and I know for every
mother here and watching,
it's incomprehensible that you would give
cyanide to your child.
Well, Jim escaped the massacre because he
was playing in a basketball
tournament 150 miles away from Jonestown,
and he says basketball actually saved
his life, twice. Take a look.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: I think I hit rock
bottom 15 to 18 years after Jonestown.
I had found solace in alcoholism. I had found solace in drugs.
Became emotionally unavailable to my family,
to my wife, to my children, and
it was at the point or at the stage
to where she was willing to take
that all away from me to protect the
children that I realized that
the cycle of dysfunction had to stop
and I had to move on.
To save my family, I stopped drinking,
stopped using drugs.
And I found something that my son
gave me as a gift that we could connect
on, and that was basketball.
Something that I denied myself because of guilt,
and that saved me.
So, when people say,
"sports saved my life," sports
saved my life twice.
If I wasn't playing basketball in Georgetown
when the Jonestown
event happened, I wouldn't be alive,
and 15-20 years later, if it
wasn't for the gift of my son and his
passion and love for basketball,
it wouldn't have brought me back.
WINFREY: Today, Jim's oldest son
Rob is making a name for himself
on the basketball court.
Mr. JONES, Jr.: For years, everywhere I went,
the people who knew me knew me as the son
of Jim Jones. Now with great pride
and great honor, it's nice to be known
as the father of Rob Jones,
the basketball player.
WINFREY: That's great. That's really great.
That's really great.
[APPLAUSE]