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>> Narrator: From our studios
in the heart of Silicon Valley, Hallowell to California,
this is a CUBE conversation.
>> Hi and welcome to theCUBE.
I'm your host Sonia Tagare
and we're here at the Palo Alto Cube studios
for an amazing conversation about women in tech
and bringing men to the conversation.
With us today is our guest, Eva Helen,
who is the CEO and founder of EQ Inspiration
and the Board Director of PrinterLogic.
Welcome to theCUBE.
>> Thank you so much for having me.
>> So let's get started,
so give us a brief overview of your background.
>> So, I was actually in tech for close to two decades.
I came from Sweden in the mid-90's
and joined a hardware company here in Silicon Valley
and started selling hardware.
One thing led to the next
and then I was part of starting two software companies,
both with good exits.
The last one we exited in 2015
when it was acquired by Citrix.
And the name of that company was Sanbolic.
So I was deep in the trenches of tech for many, many years.
>> That's very inspiring.
And from tech,
you went to being an advocate for women in tech,
so tell us a little about that.
>> Well, it was interesting, I mean,
I was a woman the whole time myself
but I didn't take the time to reflect over
a lot of what the other women were experiencing.
When you run a business, your head is down
and you work really, really hard all the time so,
I didn't come up for air very often.
But as we had been transitioned,
we were on the East Coast
and we were transitioned back to Silicon Valley,
I started to really network as much as I could
and met a lot of women, enjoyed a lot of organizations
and went to tons of events.
And I thought they were fantastic, and it was great energy
and women sharing things and stories with each other
and supporting each other,
but I couldn't figure out where the guys were.
And I'd been working in this industry for so long,
I knew that all the decisions were made by men
and I didn't understand
why they weren't part of the discussion.
So I went to a couple of guys and I said,
well, if I start something called
Women in Tech events for guys, will you come?
And they're like, absolutely, we would love that.
So, said and done, a couple of years ago,
I did my first EQ Inspiration.
Which is an event where 50% of the audience is men,
50% are women
and in a typical format, I will have experts,
or in the beginning, I wasn't en expert myself at all.
So I would have experts come in and speak
and then eventually I could take over some of those pieces,
talking about equality,
good things to do for women and so on.
And then, I would always have a panel of men
that I would ask, what are you actively and actually doing
for women in the workplace?
Your peers or your colleagues, your staff,
how are you helping them?
And all these amazing stories were coming out.
So I thought how can I get more of those stories
and make them available to a broader audience?
So that's kind of where I was in the beginning of last winter.
>> And what spurred you to become a part of this movement?
Was it an experience you had in your workplace
or just something you saw
in the larger women in tech community?
>> Well, I think I'd had my own experiences, obviously,
since I'd been in the industry for so long.
And every woman has a way to tackle
being the only women in the room,
the only one in the meeting,
the only one at dinner and so on.
We all have ways to tackle and deal with that
but, like I said, I hadn't really reflected much over
what other women were experiencing.
So, just by hearing
what all these other women were dealing with,
I thought I kind of need to help here.
Because, I'm not saying that my ways of dealing with it
were the best or the way that I would recommend
for others to be.
I can be super pushy,
very assertive
and a lot of women are not like that.
So, my model didn't necessarily work for them.
So I had to try to figure out how can I actually help them.
And because there are so many ways
that women are supporting each other already,
that are functioning really, really well,
forums for talking about delicate things
and, you know, more open things,
I wanted to bring the men into the conversation
because they're ultimately 50% of the population
and a lot more than that in the workplace.
So I just we needed to engage them
to make them feel more safe in how they are supporting us.
>> And do you find that the men
who do come to these events,
are they more at the leadership level
or are they varied?
Who generally shows up?
>> So it varies a lot
but if I could take a step back just to what I did
when I said, okay let me find out more of these stories.
Because that will answer your question.
I did 60-hour long interviews with men in tech.
At all levels of the organization.
From CEO to individual contributors.
And then I took all of that scripted material
and I broke these people down into seven characters of men.
And I say generously because we, as women,
have been categorized into two categories by most men,
for thousands of years.
Seven characters, with different names.
And at the top of what I call my matrix,
we have Mark, James, Sameer,
that are advocates for women.
Then we have Memo, Al and Chris,
that are allies of women.
And at the bottom of the matrix, we have Richard,
who is opposed to change
and concerned that women will take over
men's positions in the workplace.
But by doing that categorization,
I can see that it doesn't matter if it's a leader
or if it's an individual contributor,
it's a range of men that come to my events
but typically, they're sitting at the higher end
of the matrix.
Not the lower part.
Because they're still a little hesitant to thinking,
well, what can I do?
How can I help?
>> Right, so it doesn't matter exactly
what their exact position is,
but how far up the matrix they are
or how far low the matrix they are.
>> Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
>> So can you tell us a little bit more
about the different categories in the matrix
and why you found those seven categories?
>> Yeah sure.
So, if we start from the top,
the top character is called Mark
and Mark is, he's really an expert.
He has been working in HR
or he's a diversity consultant
or he can be a man who has lots of friends
and he's very comfortable speaking up on behalf of women
in front of these men.
But he doesn't just address women or mixed groups,
he actually talks directly to groups of men.
The next category is James.
James is a change agent.
He's a leader.
He has a very visible presence in the organization
and he will take on things like culture change.
If he notices in his organization
that the culture is not exactly what it should be
to promote equality,
he will actually get to the bottom of it
and dig deep to figure things out and solve them.
Maybe by hiring an external consultant like a Mark.
The next level is Sameer, he's the sponsor.
And there are lots of women out there
that have had great sponsors
and often at the EQ Inspiration event,
I'll bring up a women who talks about a sponsorship story.
The sponsors make women visible
and they also put their own name on the line.
They're very comfortable promoting women.
And often,
they have experienced being an outsider themselves
at some point,
so they're very empathetic.
The next level, now we get into the allies,
and the allies are Memo, Al and Chris.
Memo is the mentor.
Mentorship is a very interesting thing
because it's a big step up from the level below.
It really is not necessarily promoting,
but really asking a woman what can I do to help?
How can I help you?
And there's a lot of informal mentorships that are going on
and there are lots of formal mentorship programs out there.
It's really important
to formalize mentorship programs in organizations
where there's a greater fear among men
to do something that's not right.
And I think that a lot of the informal mentorships
are suffering because of the Me Too movement
and all the negative press that we have out there.
The next to allies are Al and Chris.
And these two categories have the greatest potential
to actually grow into something bigger,
because the objective, of course,
is to climb from one step to the next on the matrix.
And Al is a happy-go-lucky guy.
He says I love working with women, I think it's fantastic,
just tell me what to do, I would love to help.
But he's not necessarily sure what to do.
And Chris, the guy below him,
he gets uncomfortable more easily.
So, if a situation gets a little sticky in the office,
when they start talking about equality
or something like that,
he might actually withdraw and close his door
and say, no I don't want to be part of this discussion.
But if you talk to Chris,
he's already helping somebody who's close to him.
Maybe his sister, maybe his partner, his wife
or his daughter.
And it's really interesting when you get to
the point where they understand and they realize,
they go oh, I am actually doing something.
Maybe it's not helping somebody in the workplace
but maybe it's somebody who's close to me.
And then Richard at the bottom of the matrix,
he's the chauvinist and he's there
and there's lots of them
and they're opposed to the change.
And in the beginning, I was thinking
maybe I just leave him out of the discussion.
But he's a really important reference point
for the rest of the characters.
>> And so, as I liked that how you said that
we want to have men go up the levels,
to essentially become a Mark or James or Sameer,
but suppose you have a Richard in your workplace,
is there any hope for him ever becoming a Mark
or is it even likely?
>> Well, so the important thing is here,
you know, I'm not a big fan of the kinds of workshops
where you throw all men into the same room
and you give them the same message.
Because you'll lose 70% of the audience right away.
So the key thing here is to make them understand
that you can climb one step on the ladder
and that may be enough.
And if you choose to stay where you are,
but as long as you're getting a little bit more awareness
of what you're doing, that's okay too.
But we're not trying to get Al or Chris,
the people who are towards the bottom, to become Marks.
We just want them to climb one step.
And Richard, he's absolutely not a hopeless case.
The thing with him is you can't tell him what to do,
but you need to find his motivator.
What is it that motivates him
to start thinking outside of the little comfort zone
that he is in right now?
And so, maybe that motivator is
maybe he does have a sister
who's experienced a difficult situation.
And so, how does that relate to what's going on?
Maybe his team is not coming up with any new ideas.
So having the discussion of diversifying the team,
he might be ready for that one.
But just finding his motivator
is how we get him to, at least, get up to
the level of Chris.
>> And you mentioned that by the year 2030,
you want 50-50 gender equality.
Now, for people who are at leadership positions,
who are Richards, who maybe do have some hope
that they might change into even a Chris,
but they still aren't on board with 50-50 gender equality,
what do you say to those men
and how can women deal with those men in their workplace?
>> Well, it's that, you know,
is the pie this big or is there two pies
or is the pie growing?
50-50 is sort of something that a lot of people
that ae working towards equality are saying.
Now, I'm really trying to support women in the workplace
to get to higher levels.
And we are, more than 50%,
at the very bottom level of most industries
and most working positions.
And we know that, I think it's 53% of all graduates today
are women.
So, it's not so much a we need to be 50-50,
it's just that we need to change the parameters a little bit
and change the format
and change the expectations of how we lead our organizations
so that it's not always done in a man's way.
But rather, something that's more accepting
towards not just women,
but all minorities that haven't had a place there before.
And would you say to somebody who's a Richard?
Well if he's open to having the discussion and conversation,
try to meet him where he is and say,
we're not taking your job away from you,
but we will give a woman the opportunity
to apply for the job at the next level,
alongside with you.
And it's the most qualified that will win.
But the way that the criteria are set right now
and the qualifications and expectations are set right now,
are really created very much so for men.
So they end up winning that battle every single time.
And Chris can't or Richard can't change that.
That needs to be changed from a higher level.
>> And also, alongside with them worrying that
we're going to take their jobs,
also because of the Me Too movement,
they might be worried, oh I don't even want to work with women
because I'm worried they're going to say I harass them
or do something to them
so I'd rather just not even bother with it.
So with those kind of people,
how would you try to convince them that
they're safe with women or that
that it's okay for them to be a part of this discussion?
>> So, Chris, who is just above Richard on the matrix,
he supports women who are very close to him.
So, like I said, family members
or maybe it's somebody, a woman on his team,
that he's worked with for a long time.
And by making him aware that he's already supporting people
that are very close to him
and he's super comfortable in those relationships
and that kind of support that he's providing,
I'm saying, what if you were to take that support
to somebody you don't know as well?
Maybe there's a woman in the extended team or next to you
and you say to her, what can I do to help you?
Is there anything I can do to help?
And then treat that relationship
the same way that you're treating the relationship
that you have with that family member or whatnot.
You know, make sure that it's completely transparent.
Let the door be open.
Make sure that you're inviting other people to the meetings.
Sit in an open area.
Do things that are completely transparent.
That way nobody will ever question what your motives are,
why you're doing this
or if you're suggesting
or saying something that's inappropriate.
>> Right, right.
And do you feel that more men are coming to these events
or do you think that there's still a lot
of progress to be made?
>> So, when I started this a couple years ago, I said,
okay, within a year, most of the women's organizations
here in the Bay Area will have a track for men.
And it's starting to happen so I'm so excited about that.
I'm really, really happy that EQ Inspiration
is not the only place to go,
but that there's other organizations
that are doing the same thing.
And I will continue to, beyond the EQ Inspiration format,
my objective is to go and speak
at as many tech events as possible.
Where I know that the majority of the audience
will continue to be mostly men,
for, at least, the near future.
Hopefully that will change quickly.
But now that I have material and I have a method
and I know that there is a way to move men
and make them individual contributors
and make them excited about this.
I want to bring that message directly to the core audience
while all of the women's organizations
that are sitting here in Silicon Valley
will continue to build their tracks for men.
>> That's amazing and you also mentioned that
your material's coming out in Spring,
so what's next for you?
>> Well, I mean, so writing a book is a difficult thing
and for all the men who are listening to this,
it will be a very accessible, easy book.
Not a lot of words, some pictures, images.
Hopefully it's going to be, you know, a nice feel to it
so people will be happy to have it lying around.
And, really, for me, it's trying to create a language
that both men and women are comfortable with.
Having names on these characters.
Jokingly being able to talk about it.
De-dramatizing the whole conversation around this.
There is a big seriousness to it, don't get me wrong.
But for what I'm trying to do,
I really want to lighten it up a little bit
and make sure that people don't feel intimidated,
threatened, judged or anything like that by it.
And so, once the book becomes available in the Spring,
I'm hoping that tech organizations will pick it up
and use it as conversational material.
Both for women's work groups, for mixed groups.
One woman called me and said, I found a great use case.
She specializes in going into organizations
that already have programs
and processes set up to move the needle,
but not enough is happening.
And then she can use this material
to actually plug in and engage the men more deeply.
So, I think, the book will have its life
and with the book, I will make sure that
it gets in front of as many people in tech as possible,
both men and women.
And then I'm hoping to be able to speak about it
in as many difficult places as possible,
because that's how I grow.
>> Well, that's very heroic.
It's such a great support for the women in tech community
to have someone
who's willing to kind of go out of their comfort zone
and talk to men about women in tech issues
and that's really not happening.
So, we really appreciate all the work you're doing
and thank you so much for coming in today.
>> Thank you so much for having me.
>> She's Eva, I'm Sonia,
thanks so much for watching theCUBE, til next time.
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