When will an act be declared as Disbelief, polytheism, or deviance?
[Hasan Ilyas] In today’s episode, the first question that I would
like to ask you is of a very fundamental nature.
And one of the main reasons that we generally see that the people
who are put off by religion has to do with the fact that
when religious people share their opinion on certain issues,
they tend to use very strong words.
Sometimes they use words like infidelity, polytheism, and at other times words like
innovations and misguidance are used.
My question to you is that: what is the limit to such discourse?
How should a religious person express himself
when he is deviating from a religious issue?
When we talk about harmony, when we talk about respecting peoples emotions,
what should be the procedure to label something as infidelity, polytheism,
deviation and misguidance without hurting others?
In light of your own framework, in light of your project on religious issues, how
have you taken care of this issue?
[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] The first thing that you need to understand is that neither me,
nor any scholar has the authority to pass an verdict vis a vis an individual.
No one can make this transgression even in the slightest degree.
In other words, if a person says that he is a Muslim, if another says that he is a
follower of this religion, if a person says that he doesn't indulge in Shirk,
if he says that he doesn't perpetrate any innovation, based on all these things,
we will call him a Muslim only.
We cannot say anything negative about that person.
It is the responsibility of every student and scholar to sincerely and boldly
analyze the views and opinions of others.
That a particular statement qualifies as Shirk or Kufr will be decided for sure,
and people will be warned of such statements as well.
But it does not, at all, entail that you are passing an verdict vis a vis
that person.
The principle pertaining to this issue is quite simple too.
The Prophet (pbuh) has answered two questions in the Hadith of Gabriel.
Gabriel asked, "What is faith?
God's Messenger replied, 'Faith is to believe in God, His angels,
His books, His Prophets, and to believe in the day of judgement.
These are the five pillars of faith.
Then Gabriel further asked. "What is Islam?''
God's Messenger replied, "To worship God Alone and none else,
and that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will be believed in as the last messenger
until the day of judgement.'
And then to offer prayers, to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and
to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan,
and to go on the pilgrimage of Haj.
These are the five elements which make up the definition of Islam.
This is, essentially, the foundation of our religion.
The Prophet (pbuh) explicated the articles of faith as well as
the basic elements of Islam.
This narration is the elucidation of the Quran.
Every word of this narration is the elucidation of the Quran.
So, among these five things, if they are related to the
articles of faith or the five pillars of Islam,
if someone rejects the aforementioned objects of religion, we will deem such an
action as Kufr.
[Ilyas] Alright.
[Ghamidi] What is the second aspect?
The testimony which is part of this religion i.e. La Illah ha illalah
It means that there is no one worthy of worship other than Allah.
So, if a person worships someone[other than God] we will refer to that as shirk.
[Ilyas] To that practice?
[Ghamid] To that action, Yes.
We will say that the action qualifies the condition of shirk.
And with respect to these 10 things i.e. 5 articles of faith and
five pillars of Islam,
an aberration will be made based on a certain expansive explanation.
It is not as though they are rejecting it, but we will judge them to
be deviating from the right path.
It is a very simple statement.
Due to that fact, the Prophet (pbuh) has ascertained it so that there is
no more debate on this issue.
Pointing out this deviation, aberration, Shirk, or Kufr is the
responsibility of every scholar.
Scholars shouldn't be apologetic about it.
However, it is not our job to pass a verdict vis a vis an individual.
I am not ready, in the least, to refute a claim made by an individual,
where the individual calls himself a Muslim,
It is not my job to decide the belief and disbelief of people.
Allah, the creator of this world will make that decision on the day of judgement.
Neither have I been given this responsibility nor I have the right to
declare someone a disbeliever but teaching religion or teaching people
about the oneness, faith in religion and the elements which we
must necessarily believe in and the elements in religion which may become
Kufr or Shirk or the elements which would lead to deviation.
All these things shall be pointing out.
They will be told at all costs.
Therefore, the concept that you are familiar with by the name
Bidah (innovation) is supplementary to it.
In other words, it the the job of Allah to enlighten us with religion.
And if an individual makes additions to this religion at a personal level,
then such an action will be labelled as Bidah and the Prophet (pbuh) said:
Kullu bidatin zallalah
This is said by Allah and by the Prophet (pbuh).
This is, essentially, the responsibility of the religious scholars.
But they start passing orders about individual people.
They are labeling people as deviant.
They are labelling people as Mushrik.
They are labelling people as Kafir.
And in the process they are trespassing their authority.
It is because, in such a situation, it is the individual who is going to decide.
He is going to decide how he identifies himself.
And the world will accept his own claim about himself.
If Allah rejects his narrative on the day of judgement, then
that will be the decision of Allah.
If he even rejects our faith then we can, at best, express our helplessness.
This is the decision which will take place in the court of Allah.
But, as far as teaching religion is concerned,
it will involve telling about both the things.
Both Iman and Kufr will be elucidated.
Shirk and Tawheed will both be elucidated.
Sunnah and Bidah will both be pointed out.
And it will be explicated whether an individual has indulged in such acts
in this domain upon which the tag of deviation, and the word for deviation
in Arabic is Zalalat, will be applied.
So, it is a very evident and simple thing.
People create unnecessary confusion in it.
In other words, on the one hand the situation is such that people are ready
to give fatwa (verdict) on everyone.
On the other hand, if it is told about bidaah, deviation, shirk, kufr that as to
what they are, and if certain arguments are given in that regard, they are
immediately offended and say that they have been disrespected.
No. This is a judgement with respect to an action.
It is a case of knowledge.
No one has the right to pass judgement with respect to a person.
[Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahab, you explained in great detail.
I have a few supplementary questions that I would like to ask you.
Yesterday, we had a conversation with you on the principles of interpretation
by Sir Syed Khan.
By making the mistakes in those principles of interpretation evident,
you said that you consider it a great sin.
So, tell me that: we have shirk, kufr and deviation.
What category does disobedience belong to?
[Ghamid] When it will be said that the statement that Allah has made
with reference to something, if it doesn't conform to our standards of rationality
then we will not accept it.
So, what is the deciding factor here?
It is reason.
This, according to me, is disobedience of God.
Maasiyat in Arabic language denotes the disobedience of Allah.
If God forbid, I wouldn't offer Namaz or if I wouldn't fast, that would be
an example of the disobedience of Allah.
Similarly, in terms of the articles of faith as well,
if an individual makes a statement
It is a very facile word that it is the disobedience of Allah.
First, the command from Allah will be fulfilled.
Only then it will be rationally analysed, its wisdom and objectives evaluated.
The first step is the affirmation of the command.
When it was found out that the command is from Allah, the Prophet of Allah (pbuh)
or the Quran, or the command has been intimated as a practice through the
consensus and transmission of the Muslim community, it is an established Sunnah.
The commandment will be accepted as it is.
The wisdom and purpose of the commandment,
Allah's intention behind the commandment is a secondary debate.
And while explicating a purpose, you cannot dismiss the commandment.
Accepting the commandment in any shape or form in which it is given to you
is the definition of religion.
[Ilyas] You gave a reference of the Hadith of Gabriel and said that
Islam and Iman are elucidated in terms of five things.
If an individual deviates from those then on that act in the light of the
religion of Allah, giving an order is the responsibility of the religious scholars
But we see in our culture. I will give you an instance:
Belief in the Prophet (pbuh).
Now, what are the different grades of Belief in the Prophet (pbuh).
According to one point of view, our belief in the Prophet (pbuh) should include
the belief that he is Haazir-Naazir, that he has knowledge of the unseen
and if an individual deviates from this position then we will conclude that
he doesn't believe in the Prophet (pbuh), that we should give the fatwa of
insulting the prophet, or not following the Prophet (pbuh).
So, then this process wil never stop.
So, from my point of view, I am refuting someone who in turn
goes on to refute me.
[Ghamidi] That is why the first thing that I said was that you have
no right to pass a verdict with respect to anyone.
Firstly, try to understand this point.
Secondly, what verdict are you going to give?
Are you giving the verdict of rejection?
But he did not reject anything.
Did he deny the Prophet (pbuh) or the Prophets?
Did he deny the existence of angels?
Did he deny the existence of God?
So, if one is refusing to accept.
What he refused or did not refuse has to do with the individual.
Denying the aforementioned aspect is the definition of Kufr.
What you call deviation or what you call Zalalat in Arabic language
refers to deviation from one of the these 10 elements
in terms of reeinterpretation.
Based on expansive interpretation.
If they are deny one of these elements then that would be an act of kufr.
They refused to believe.
It is the responsibly of a scholar to call an act of kufr what it is.
But does the individual who has perpetuated it become a kafir,
a non-muslim?
You have no right to label him as misguided.
That decision will be made by Allah on the day of judgement.
Here, it is the statements of that person based on which he will be dealt with.
If he declares himself a Muslim, then he is a Muslim for me as well.
No individual, scholar or state in the entire muslim community has the right
to refute his claim.
[Ilyas] Alright. Ghamidi sahib, when we pass a verdict on some
action carried out by an individual and in the light of our religion
we say that the individual has indulged in Kufr, Shirk, Zalalat or has deviated
from the right path...
[Ghamidi] I would like to mention it again: the individual has perpetuated an
offence should never become a point of discussion.
The point of view that he is expressing should only be made a point of discussion.
Perpetrating an offence is his action.
You have no right to pass a verdict on his actions.
He says that according to him Angels, Prophets possess a certain specific nature
For example, he says that Prophets are philosophers like Plato and Aristotle.
So, he hasn't refused to believe in the Prophets but he has defined them
in such a way which is a clear deviation.
So, we will say that it qualifies as zalalat and deviation.
Firstly, you need to understand that this point is not made against a
person or his actions.
Rather, the point is made on the status with which
he is expressing his actions.
That will be analysed.
What is the crux of his statements or actions?
People will be necessarily informed about the validity or invalidity of his
statements or actions.
Let me add that.
As I said earlier that the verdict of kufr will be passed if an individual
refuses to believe in any one of the 10 elements.
Here, the individual is not the object of discussion.
It is the statements which become the point of discussion.
Similarly, if people deviate on account of the nature of their interpretations,
in such a situation, we will pass the verdict of zalalat or deviation.
If the situation is incremented in any way if there is a deviation in any shape
or form, bidaah also is an aberration of a similar sort,
this is the verdict that we will pass in such situations.
In addition to this, there are numerous issues
where people have differing opinions.
In such situations, one should use the words valid and invalid only.
Say, in my opinion, this is the correct interpretation.
In your view, this is a wrong interpretation.
Then I will give arguments in support of my position.
These are scientific things.
This is the academic part of religion.
According to one person, the story of Solomon's throne happened in a certain way
According to another person, the story went differently.
It is obvious that the Quran is being interpreted here.
According to one person, the narration according to which the Jins are confined,
or their feet are tied with chains is a construction of sorts which is adopted.
Another person says that we get to know through other narrations that
it happens just as mentioned.
These are the things which should, in fact be labelled as academic.
These are academic things.
Words like correct and incorrect will be used in this domain.
No extra words will be used.
This is a fixed rule.
And we won't be facing any quarrels, we won't offend anyone and
it won't lead to any propagandist narrative,
if we keep that in consideration.
Every scholar, based on his reason, will only make an analysis of the statements
made by the individual and he will declare what is right and wrong
according to him.
He will say if something qualifies as zalalat, deviation, kufr or shirk.
[Ilyas] Ok. Ghamidi Sahab, you are insisting that we have no right
to pass a verdict vis a vis an individual.
But our scholars say that if an individual perpetrates Kufr and it is evident to
us that his action qualifies as Kufr, then it will have certain consequences.
In other words, if he is insisting on it then it entails that he is
perpetrating Kufr.
So, you ought to marry a believer.
But if someone is insisting on Kufr, then how can be consider him a Muslim.
Hence, there should be a renewal of nikah.
He should again recite the Kalima [(Muslim) confession of faith].
So, how should we separate the individual from his thought?
[Ghamidi] When did he insist on Kufr?
Time and again, he is saying that he is a Muslim.
He is insisting on his Islam, time and again.
In reality, you are insisting on his kufr which you have no right to do.
He is saying that he is a Muslim.
Now, you have to debate with him.
This debate needs to happen intellectually.
And a verdict will also be passed on the statements that will be made.
But, neither me nor you have any right to pass a verdict on the individual.
His insistence is, essentially, his identification.
If he says he is a Muslim.
Then he is a muslim for the entire world.
[Ilyas] Last question. Ghamidi Sahab,
a person says that he does not consider the idea, on which
the verdict is passed, as shirk or Kufr.
And he has certain arguments in support of his position.
In such a situation, can I still label his position as Shirk?
Doesn't it mean that I am disrespecting him?
[Ghamidi] He expressed his point of view and so did I.
On his view, it is not shirk. If people are satisfied with own reasoning,
then they may accept it.
If it is shirk according to me, then they should hear me out as well.
Here we are arguing over a certain statement.
No one is passing a verdict on the other person.