- I sometimes miss this version of us.
- Me too.
- Epic games made an interactive matrix experience
to show off its upcoming "Unreal Engine Five"
at this year's game awards.
We sat down with the two stars of the demo
and "The Matrix" movies,
Keanu Reeves and Carrie-Anne Moss
to talk about how the technology is blurring the line
between what's real and virtual,
what to expect from the new "Matrix Resurrections" movie,
and a lot more.
- Wait, can you use unreal in pornography?
- [Man] No comment, no comment.
(man laughs)
(logo swooshes)
- Hi, I'm Thomas Anderson.
- So this interactive experience that you all shot,
it's very different from a lot of things
that have been made before.
It's using cutting edge technology.
I'd love to know what was the process like of making this.
- The idea was first proposition to us by Lana, right?
And then it was proposition to me doing this presentation,
utilizing this new technology from Epic,
and that we would be doing a kind of introduction
to it, right, so.
- What was that like doing that opening that she wrote,
and then also afterwards,
people don't know if it's the real you or the fake you?
- The idea of doing something like this
coming from the writer of "The Matrix,"
and then taking this technology and marrying it,
and having a kind of what's real,
what isn't real conversation,
and what can that be,
and what might it turn into?
And here's kind of here with where we're at for this, right?
- And you're fully virtual in this experience,
what is that like seeing like a fully digital version
of yourself like that?
'Cause you've done games, Mass Effects,
like, but seeing that is it different?
- Yeah, 'cause you're never doing you.
- [Alex] Right.
- It's interesting.
It's trippy to see myself that way.
- Keanu, did the younger version of you,
they actually took footage from the original trilogy.
I think they found it in some vault somewhere in Warner Bros
and recreated it, made it modern.
What was it like seeing like a younger version of yourself
like that?
- Yeah, I mean, I kinda have to take my own kind of like,
"Oh, that doesn't look real or not real,"
but also just to see the younger version of it,
yeah, it's tripping.
- I have to say just watching it just now
and seeing your face morph from now to then--
- Yeah.
- I think you're even more handsome now.
(Alex laughs) - Oh, my gosh!
- Sorry, I mean, I know I can't,
I don't wanna take it
into that shallow place but-- - Oh, my gosh.
- I dunno if that is shallow. - Truthfully, I just-
- The idea of aesthetics and beauty is not a shallow place.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think
- Your likeness could then be used for other things though,
and that's the crazy concept of this, right?
Is that there could be digital versions of you
as a performer that could theoretically be used in ways
that are not you acting. - Yeah, I know,
I mean, I think that's part
of like what's real and not real,
and who's the architect,
who's the director of the material, right?
Marlin Brando said that
with the Dick Donner Superman, right?
So he was already thinking about,
"Oh wow, why?
This is my, you already videoed me.
You already filmed.
You already put in the computer."
So I mean, he was ahead of the game too.
Like right now you can have your digital IP,
like I know for me and films,
I can't be digitally altered without an approval,
and I did that way back when,
you're kind of licensing.
And in a weird way we're licensing our performances
in a way too, with editing in the first place.
- [Alex] Right.
- But I guess if you're creating it,
and by making that avatar,
then do whatever you want,
but then you could do multiple projects, Carrie-Anne.
- You can just stay home.
- You could just stay home.
- (laughs) Oh.
- Or perform at a younger age,
or perform, yeah, when you're retired, right?
- Or whenever.
I mean, I think that's the whole thing
about this kind of world that's becoming more and more real.
- So you wouldn't need the actual physical experience
of making it,
it could just be done in a computer.
- That's puppetry, right?
It's computer puppetry,
so then you could be wherever you wanna be.
- So I think. (chuckles)
It's interesting.
- What do you think about the post-humorous aspect of it,
like Carrie Fisher in "Star Wars,"
where potentially even after you're gone, right?
Like your likeness could be used.
Have you thought about like you have that,
where you have to approve how your likeness is used?
- Yeah, I mean, I know a couple of years back my agency,
I mean, there's agencies now
where they'll capture your digital self
to create digital content,
and you could perhaps transfer your likeness
to the estate, right?
They're already doing that. - Right.
- And there's also an aspect of this
where games and movies are melding to a degree, right?
And this experience gets at that a little bit,
but I mean, with "Unreal,"
I think part of what Epic is doing is that,
you can take objects created for a movie,
and port them over to a game using the same objects,
and vice versa,
that's technology that they're creating.
So I mean-- - Yeah.
- What does that mean for say any movie
where you could just make a game out of it,
and it's the same IP,
it's the same stuff that you made for the movie?
- Yeah, yeah, I guess it's the plasticity of images.
I dunno, it depends,
I mean, if we're talking from a capitalistic platform,
I think it's always going to be portioned,
and I think it's always going to be sold,
so there's just more things to sell.
I mean, I'm sorry, more things to create,
oh, I'm sorry, more things to sell.
But I mean, they're also bringing the tool
to the user, right?
So you can be able to create your,
you'll be able to license perhaps IPs, right?
- Does the idea of like making a playable movie,
is that compelling to either of you?
- Yeah, I guess so.
I mean, I guess this is not the ending I wanted.
I don't know.
- Do you literally can take the pill yourself, right?
That's the idea, right? - Yeah, I can use it.
- I guess what I love about making movies is
that being together,
being all together and that human part of it,
it's what I love about it.
That's what I always loved about the matrix was that,
I always felt so even though people would always assume
with so much of it was greenscreen,
and so much of it was special effects,
and yet that wasn't my experience of doing it.
We did everything.
- I feel like it's the first time in a long time,
that the real world is almost ahead of our science fiction.
I mean the whole idea of trying to pursue,
like when can we make it photo real?
When can we fool,
all of the deep fake fit technologies that are happening?
Wow!
- Yeah. - It hurts the mind.
- No, no, but I mean, it's almost,
it's like, we're,
it's the why, right?
We can't, we have to keep, (sniffles)
the species has to keep creating.
A species is like, "Oh, I can do that.
Let's keep going to do that."
And no one can predict the future.
I don't know, I was having dinner
with friends house, this director,
and he had some kids and there was like a 13 year old,
a 15 year old, a 17 year old.
And they hadn't seen the film, "The Matrix,"
and so the director's like,
"Well, why don't you just tell them what it's about?"
So I'm starting to say,
"Well, there's this guy who is in a kind of virtual world,
and he finds out that there's a real world,
and he's really questioning what's real and not real,
and he really wants to know what's real."
And the young girl was like, "Why?"
And I was like, "What do you mean?"
She was like, "Who cares if it's real?"
And I was like, "What, you don't care if it's real?"
And she was like, "No."
- Isn't that wild?
- It's awesome.
- You think it's awesome? - I mean, it's awesome.
I mean, it's awesome.
I mean, this idea of that, - Yeah, yeah.
- So in a way, what you and I are kind of speaking
about is kinda like a legacy feeling.
We're almost like,
"All your older versions just let it go."
- I know I'm the mom at the kitchen table,
like talking about the possibility of like a virtual world
for my kids and I'm crying,
like that's how it feels for me.
But now I just, I don't know,
just kinda like sitting around the table
and talking. (laughs)
- I love how-- - They call me crazy.
- No, no, but you'll be able to sit around at your table
and talking and--
- What if it's not a real table?
What if I don't know if it's real or not?
- No, you won't have to be a table.
That's the other question too,
which is one of the issues that we're being,
yeah, confronted by very quickly.
- A famous tech investor said something once
that really stuck with me.
He said that for most people,
the virtual world will be more compelling
than their real life.
So why would you not strap on a VR headset
and be able to be with someone across the world
at at a virtual casino, right?
Isn't that-- - Oh, yeah, for sure.
I mean, yeah, definitely.
- And so like, what do you,
I don't know what the world looks like when we get there,
but we're getting there.
I mean, it's happening.
- Can we just not have metaverse
be invented by Facebook.
- You're not a fan? - No, but just the concept
of metaverse is like way older than that.
- [Alex] It is old, "Snow Crash," yeah.
- It's like a way older,
and so for that moment to get to,
I'm just like, "Come on, man."
- Do you think it's dystopian,
like the way the original matrix
kind of presented all this is like kind of dystopian
where tech was headed,
like, do you think the Meta as everyone's talking
about it now?
I mean-- - Yeah, because it's,
it's content creation, it's fine,
it's economic creation, right?
Cryptocurrency.
- Are either of you into cryptocurrency personally?
- A friend of mine bought some from me awhile back, so.
- But you haven't done anything with it?
- I haven't had to.
(both laughing)
- [Alex] It's just sitting there appreciating.
- It's just like,
it's just, - It's probably good.
They call that HODL.
- Just to sit there a little bit.
It's what? - It's called HODL.
When you just don't touch your crypto
- HODL. - even if it tanks
a little bit,
you HODL it. - Yeah.
- So you're HODL-ing your crypto.
- Yeah, I have a little HODL.
(Alex laughs)
- Did you guys see the matrix NFT thing
that they did for "Resurrections"
just a couple of days ago?
- No. - They made NFTs
for the new movie,
and there were like a 100,000 of them,
and the site broke in the first few hours,
because there were over 300,000 people in the queue
trying to buy these NFTs for $50.
And so when you think about the concept of digital scarcity
and things that are they can't be copied.
- That are easily reproduced?
(Keanu laughs)
- Well, but they're not the same, right?
It's not fake version of you.
- I wonder what,
do we get a cut of that?
Oh, no, actually, I don't think we're in 'em.
They probably did other people.
- You have to take that up with the studio.
I don't know that. - Yeah.
- There was a leak of the experience
on like the PlayStation server,
and it got a lot of attention
that there was this metric experience happening
that you guys were in.
And I was looking at the Reddit thread where it was posted,
and everyone was just saying,
"I want a matrix video game.
I want a modern day re-imagining of the matrix video games."
- Well, that is so,
it's ridiculous that there isn't one.
- What'd you do on if they came to you and said, "We want."
- I mean, aren't there smart people
who run these companies,
aren't there suppose like?
- The fans really want it, right?
So if they came to you and they said,
"We're gonna do on the matrix--
- I mean Warner, Brothers is like,
"Where's the ball?'
Oh, you mean the ball dropped 15 years ago.
- So you would do it if they came to you and said,
"Let's do a full, proper video game?"
Would you both do it?
- Yeah, I mean, we'd have to read the script.
I'm sorry, I'd have to read the script.
- I'll do whatever he does.
- (laughs) I'll like read the script.
Anyway, it's a very exciting time.
- I would love to just kind of talk a little bit
about the new movie,
and hear kinda what drew you back
to this iconic franchise,
so many years later?
What was it that got you both?
Was it just a phone call from Lana,
was it that simple?
- I think what, for me, it was like that, right?
- Just like an immediate yes.
- Mm-hmm.
- Yeah, it's Lana Wachowski.
- [Alex] Yeah.
Same thing? - Totally.
It's exciting.
- The trailers make it seem like it's a very meta,
so there's a lot of self-referential stuff going on.
So- - It's very funny.
- It's funny. - Yeah.
And it feels like a, a real experience.
You go on like this total from the minute it starts,
you're on this journey and it's,
yeah, I think it's really fun, really good.
- Romantic. - Very romantic.
Lot of love. - I love.
- Great love story.
- Yeah, it's still some good old fashioned matrix, social,
cultural, ideological, commentary propositions.
- Good action.
Wonderful performances.
- Mm-hmm.
- Yeah.
- When you look back at like
what their original matrix movies were saying
about where tech was headed,
how does the new movie kind of fit into,
is it looking ahead again,
like decades out?
Is it more in the now?
Is it answering the questions that the-
- I don't know, I mean, I think the films were voice
been a kind of a tool that you could use,
like you got the matrix tool
to think about the world you live in,
to think about the world itself,
and what are the systems either of control or,
and then even looking at what love is,
or how we, community, rebellion,
and whatever we fight for looking at
how do you think about self, and selfhood,
and freewill and choice,
and it gives you a way to consider things, right?
And to look at the world,
and I think resurrections is definitely a tool
that we can look at today,
and we'll probably take us into tomorrow.
- If you were to think back on the original matrix,
backstory and cannon,
would it look any different with knowledge
of how tech actually turned out in the year 2021?
Do you think it was kind of spot on
with where we're headed or?
- Yeah, when you say tech,
do you mean the idea of a virtual reality
that is indistinguishable from reality?
- Yeah, and computers that are approaching
or surpassing actually, human level intelligence.
- Right, I mean, I think even the trilogy
gets into artificial identity,
our artificial intelligence and then identity,
and even then kind of was taking this idea of being amusing,
archaic, to being digital into the real world, into flesh.
And I think "Resurrections" continues
that technological concept of selfhood,
and identity for,
I'll just call it artificial intelligence or programs.
Which is kind of what we're doing even now,
when we're trying to have ethics in programs
and moral controls and the basic version of,
"Don't hurt the human." (laughs)
- These Google and these big tech companies
have ethicists, right, that are--
- Yeah, digital ethicists.
- Will either of you do like a VR project,
especially as these headsets get better.
Are you interested in that
from like a storytelling perspective?
'Cause I can bring in to think--
- Again, I liked your first answer,
it depends on the script, I guess, right?
- Right. - The story.
So I definitely know that I,
it's not that I,
I understand that I don't understand,
and that's sort of where I'm living,
I guess right now is being curious,
and also holding like for my personal life,
like what I hold sacred which is the real.
- Yeah.
Keanu, what about you VR storytelling
is it compelling to you?
- Yeah.
Yeah.
- Do you have a VR headset,
do you use it personally?
- I do, I don't.
I know that any VR technology
that I'm using is five years old and lame.
I'm sorry, never used to be lame,
it's probably now modernly lame,
but there's so much kinda data collection tools
that are in these experiences
to help make the product better.
- It's not interesting. (Keanu laughs)
- Being used for medicine.
Of course, these advances are important and great.
- Do you play video games?
- No. - No, really?
- No. - Even "Cyberpunk?"
- No, I mean, I've seen demonstrations,
but I've never played it.
- Did you know that in "Cyberpunk"
they were hacking a character.
You were the most requested hacked to make a character
that you could have sex with BU,
be your character. - Yes!
- [Alex] And it got to a point
where the game developer said,
"No, you can't do this,
'cause we're not sure if we have permission to do this."
- Oh! - But I mean,
now that I have you like what do you think about that?
- Oh my God, it's always nice when it's nice.
- Yeah, it was affection.
- I on the other hand say, "No, thank you." (chuckles)
- So that's a no from you, but--
- No, thank you. (laughs)
Keanu's fine with it.
- No, because- (Carrie laughs)
think of how much money is imploring, right?
So you could not even have to be there,
and people could have digital sex with your digital avatar.
What's that, what's it called right now?
For a members only you could do a whole thing.
Oh my God, and then you get the suit
that's probably made in Sweden
or some German thing.
Oh my God,
and then you got the VR this. - I hope that I do not live
to see this.
- Oh my God, and then they've got the data on you
with your arousal metrics.
Oh my gosh!
- I did not see this conversation going here, but--
- Right, so then you're in the suit
where the arousal metrics
through your members only metaverse X.
- God help us,
that's all I'm gonna say.
- And so then you're like take everything off,
and then how do you feel about the relationships you're in?
- Right. - Great.
- What is real, what is not? - Right?
But then you hold that real thing and you're like,
"Oh man, I'm so glad we have reality."
- You're gonna be head up
as being like a chief creative officer
of some porn tech company now.
- Oh my gosh, he'd be huge.
I'll be the ethicist or whatever.
- Well, those are my questions.
I mean, I feel like we covered a lot of ground.
- Yeah.
- [Alex] I hope that wasn't too painful.
- No, not at all, sure.
- [Alex] Thank you, that was fun.
- Thank you. - Oh, yeah.
- Thank you. - Thank you.
(chiming music) - Who is that?
- The marketing people. (car engine revving)
- Marketing? (sirens wailing)
- I thought we were supposed
to have a total creative control.
- Welcome to the Matrix.
(upbeat ominous music) (car engine revving)