so today's reshuffles suddenly got a lot
more dramatic after Sajid Javid
unexpectedly quit as chancellor after
boss Johnson ordered him to fire his
closest aides mr. Javid said that that
was a condition which no self-respecting
Minister would accept and off he went
he'll be replaced by Rishi sunic just
four weeks before the budget is due to
happen whilst Downing Street says a new
joint team of special advisers is being
established to advise to advise both the
Prime Minister and the Chancellor our
political editor Gary Gibbon is in
Downing Street now Gary make no mistake
this is a power grab by number 10 and
they want to write the next budget and
the one after that and the one after
that sources are saying in number 10
tonight that this is nothing to see here
all they want to do is resurrect the
sort of relationship that David Cameron
and George Osborne had when they were
neighbours here this is very different
because they had grown up together in
opposition their teams had moved
backwards and forwards and trusted each
other this is of a very different order
and it matters because for decades the
Treasury has been the institution in
Whitehall that says no when you have a
prime minister in there whose instinct
is to spend more to get reelected and so
the guess has got to be that the only
reason they're doing this is because
they want to spend more than number 11
and the Treasury would normally like and
that is what he's going through mine's
in the Treasury tonight where there is
real anxiety some old hands are telling
them don't worry the Treasury will
re-emerge from this no Prime Minister
could have afford to lose to
Chancellor's in these sorts of
circumstances said the new chancellor is
super powerful and unsayable but how
much does the new chancellor really want
to assert himself and how much do they
really want to spend in there there's
giant questions that are lying around in
front of us tonight at the end of the
general election a new government with a
big majority we thought some new
certainties were around tonight the
knowns have been knocked down and a
whole new tray of unknowns have been
thrown in front of us The ministers who
walk up Downing Street on reshuffle day
are meant to be the ones who are keeping
their jobs with Sajid Javid couldn't
accept the changed job terms on offer
Prime Minister spent an hour trying to
persuade his Chancellor to stay put but
Sajid Javid said no and four weeks short
of his planned budget resigned and went
home instead a world away from Tuesday
all smiles for the hs2 launched in
Birmingham there's been tension for
months between the teams that work for
these two today the prime minister told
Sajid Javid he must sack his close aides
or special advisers and work with aides
appointed by number 10 instead the plan
is the brainchild of the prime
minister's own chief aide Dominic
Cummings we'd already infuriated Sajid
Javid by sacking an advisor of his last
August and having a marched out of
number 10 under police escort it's been
a huge honor to serve as Chancellor of
the Exchequer whilst I was very pleased
that the Prime Minister wanted to
reappoint me I was unable to accept the
conditions that he had attached so I
felt I was left with no option other
than to resign did you regard yourself
as Chancellor in name only and if so was
that because of the influence of
dominant coming to the Prime Minister's
chief advisor the conditions that were
attached was a requirement that I
replace all my political advisers you
know these are people that have worked
incredibly hard on behalf of not just
the government for the whole country
done a fantastic job I was unable to
accept those conditions I don't believe
any self-respecting Minister would
accept such conditions and so therefore
I thought the best thing to do was to go
where those conditions imposed by mr.
Cummings those were the conditions
requested by the Prime Minister
arriving at the Treasury the new
chancellor who did accept those
conditions Rishi sunic he was such a
Java deputy in charge of spending as the
darling of Boris Johnson's closest
circle a public school educated former
banker and hedge
delighted to be appointed lot to get on
with thanks very much has the department
he now heads had its authorities slashed
will it fight back
how many others in this building are
smiling tonight this morning it looked
like reshuffle casualties would be
further down the table like the Northern
Ireland secretary Julian Smith managed
to restore power sharing in Northern
Ireland last month only to get the boot
today in Dublin Ireland Prime Minister
Lee of Radtke signaled he was
unimpressed with that move calling
Julian Smith one of Britain's finest
politicians of our time it's up to the
Prime Minister and that is the
responsibility he has to choose the
cabinet that he wants and his great
serving in it but if you know it's
always the Prime Minister today's call
his thoughtcrime Julian Smith is
believed to have wavered last autumn
when number 10 wanted all ministers
ready to back at No Deal brexit and real
ed simoon fought to resume for the
leadership in 2016 was one of four women
to lose their place around the cabinet
table number 10 suggests it might try to
correct that tally in a future reshuffle
in his resignation letter such a Javid
appeared to warm the prime minister off
his chief adviser saying it's important
as leaders to have trusted teams that
reflect the character and integrity that
you would wish to be associated with and
he warned the Prime Minister I would
urge you to ensure the Treasury as an
institution retains as much credibility
as possible it's great for number 10 in
the short term to get its way and
there's a you know there's a sugar high
from that but actually over time though
that kind of bounce and those kind of
you know constructive questioning and
and challenges is a good thing for the
government I'm going to give you an
absolutely categorical assurance that I
will keep Sajid Javid as my Chancellor
how about that an election pledge 87
days ago with other promises on spending
restraint maybe go the same way will the
Treasury in number 11 lose its authority
and identity the mighty neighbor next
door
I'm not joined here by Craig Oliver who
served as David Cameron's communications
chief in number 10 and Anita boating
who's a special adviser to David
Livington and Brandon Luce will come to
you both listen to what David Bork will
have to say in a minute hopefully from
you had the line back up Craig let me
start with you Sergeant Javed resigning
out of principle was he falling into a
trap there well I think he certainly was
set up in the sense that I think they
knew that it was highly unlikely that
anybody would accept the conditions that
they were offering and that he was
likely to walk so when it first came out
everybody was in total shock and
thinking oh my goodness this is probably
throwing a huge problem into the
reshuffle but actually very very quickly
Rishi su neck was put straight in and
that looked to me like they've been a
plan but it is astonishing isn't it I
mean he such evidence had an
extraordinary career came from you know
humble immigrant backgrounds you know
became Chancellor of the Exchequer for
him to have that conversation with Boris
Johnson this morning to be given these
impossible demands and then decide to
resign perhaps ending his political
career forever
he's a dramatic moment isn't it it's an
extraordinary moment in a dramatic
moment but I think you've got to see it
in the context of an administration that
is showing very very clearly today that
they mean business they are an
administration that wants to take power
very centrally into number 10 we're in
an age now where modern communications
mean that the next story is the time it
takes somebody to do a tweet government
departments can be doing god knows what
god knows what time and what they're
thinking is I think is if they have
fingertip control then they can only be
the people who are responsible I'm not
sure if you telling me it's a good idea
about it he's gone I think that most
recent governments have thought that
they increasingly need to centralize and
that is what they've been trying to do
and what they said to Sergey Javed is
either you accept that centralization
and our people or you can walk and he
walk people always forget how much the
healthy resources number-10 can have
sometimes so the Treasury will have
thousands of officials focusing purely
on economic policy and that is going to
be a key consideration for this
government as it seeks to win the 2024
election a lot of believers around
levelling-up come from Treasury and
there's always been this disconnect
between
Treasury and number ten in terms of that
a bass and that policy bass and bringing
those two things together will make
number 10 more effective and there's
always different ways of resolving this
tension there's the kind of David
Cameron George Osborne model which you
know Craig will remember well we're the
two worked very much in lockstep was
that the exception well that may be the
exception because this relationship I
think will be slightly more number ten a
bit more in charge and not and the
Treasury kind of brought him much more
in line with what number ten would like
to see and I think it's quite sensible
because the David Cameron and George
Osborne there was also Nigel Lawson
Margaret Thatcher when they fell out
with each other arguably that was the
end of our Tony Blair famously this is a
very difficult relationship and if this
government as Craig says means business
and really wants to deliver particularly
leveling up the north in the Midlands it
really needs much more control over the
engines of growth but what about you
know Abraham Lincoln's famous team of
rivals that's the way he described his
cabinet know he was the boss but they
see they were no but seriously what
about people who you know believe in
what they do they've got their brief
they got them you know the cleverest
people that they trust around them
shouldn't that be what cabinet is all
about this is a campaigning government
this and when we're in a campaign what
you need is people that can deliver and
this is a very self-confident reshuffle
I would say it's people who have been
shown they can deliver people who have
shown they're loyal people who've shown
they're active in their departments
they've gotten the promotions and that's
what ultimately what number ten wants in
this election I mean miss reshuffle does
Dominic Cummings and there's Boris
Johnson want a revolution here look they
are driven and they want to be a
government that makes a mark I remember
David Cameron saying to me that there is
a fault line at the very heart of
government and any student of politics
notice is that the fault line is between
number 10 and number 11 his way of
dealing with to have a blood brother
that he completely trusted and worked in
lockstep with and made sure that all
their special advisers knew to work
together
Boris doesn't have that his way of
dealing with it is to say I'm
effectively taking over Sajid Javid said
very pointedly no Minister you know who
has a degree of self-respect would deal
with these kind of conditions is he
basically saying that everyone else who
stayed in the cabinet is spineless well
they haven't been quite clear yet what's
happening with it all
special advisers one of the rumors I
heard today is that Dominic is trying to
actually have a central bank of special
advisers that are then farmed out to
ministers what currently tends to happen
is that the minister gets to hire though
the person who was he sees that as a
problem he sees that as setting the
government up for failure and people
briefing against it and causing problems
so there is a lot of sense in trying to
take control a lot of people will also
say that there's an element of control
freaky too between the two things which
as a special adviser you want to be
loyal to your Secretary of State but you
also know that you serve at the pleasure
of the Prime Minister and there's always
been this balancing act between showing
that loyalty and improving your
department whilst also being loyal to
number 10 and they've sought a different
way of tackling that particular problem
so you must be talking to some of your
colleagues and friends are still working
and you know number 10 or random tell
how afraid are they of Dominic Cummings
I don't think it's a question of fear
it's a different relationship it's very
very clear who's in charge and they very
much have to know I think it's pure
Machiavelli is better to be feared than
to be loved and I think he knows what
he's doing by making engine that sure
that they know that they serve at his
pleasure is he more powerful than the
Prime Minister no because being a PM
it's like a game of chess the king is
the last piece to fall and he is the
king in this so everybody goes under the
bus before the King so no he is not
and Boris still has the power but he is
a very powerful figure but boys want to
get rid of Sajid Javid I think
absolutely I think this is clearly an
indication that Dominic comment is
trusted by the Prime Minister
but he does still slover the pleasure of
the Prime Minister and that's what we're
seeing today a number-10 and a confident
Boris Johnson solidifying what he wants
to do for the next five years and I
think that it was been there's been
numerous briefings that Dominic didn't
think very much of snow did and that's
come to pass today
just briefly Sorella braveman attorney
general relatively inexperienced she
wasn't the QC of a barrister I mean is
this an attack on the judiciary I think
that that is a that some people say well
no but lawyers always say that whoever
gets made Minister of Justice confident
lawyers great know what everybody always
says that about this issue
I find out a bit of a stretch so
basically you are okay both of you are
okay with all of this I didn't I mean I
worked for him and we went into the
Ministry of Justice and he wasn't a
formal lawyer I think some of these
decisions are in political and that's
why these roles are politically
appointed and so what you're seeing is a
government again wanting someone who
feels like more of a team player who's
going to communicate being part of the
cabinet table I'm not in support if I
was a cabinet minister it would bother
me but I can totally see why somebody in
number 10 in the light of the way the
media operates in the digital world and
all the things they're going on who
wants to make big changes and doesn't
want to feel that they're constantly
fighting within would do this if you
were still in the you know in the
government how would you deal with God
Dominic Cummings in ten seconds how
would I deal with him well I suspect
he'd be my boss thanks very much John
well we're now able to talk to the
former Conservative cabinet minister
David cork who served in the Treasury
for seven years
David cork can you just tell us is there
any drawback to what these special
advisers or former special advisers seem
to be thrilling over the idea that
you're going to combine special advisers
in these two departments and therefore
there'll be total agreement all the time
well in theory if you can have number 10
have the Treasury working very closely
together that's obviously a good thing
and I was in the Treasury at the time
when David Cameron and George Osborne
worked very closely and their advisors
work very closely together and that was
to the benefit of the government but I
think the difference here and Craig
touched on this is that the this is
essentially number 10 taking over as a
Treasury and the difficulty there is
that you need a strong organization in
government that is able to ask the
bothersome questions about can we afford
this is this good value for money is
this sustainable over the long term to
protect the interests of the taxpayer to
protect the interests of consumers if
you like and not just to be some focused
as number 10 often is well now I don't I
don't think that that is fair because
you can work constructively and indeed
the Treasury can be constructive and
positive but you do also have to deal
with the fact that you there are limits
to the money that you've got available
that you do have to ensure that there is
value for money tests and that's the
role of the Treasury and it is right
that the Treasury is a strong part of
government yeah but what you can hear
and after all this is a very unusual
Prime Minister and it's got a very
unusual special advisor and you can kind
of hear them saying I don't care if we
can't afford it we're gonna do it and
there's no Treasury to say hang on a
minute absolutely no we can't afford it
well that's exactly the point and that
is the risk here the danger here is that
at all times you know most Prime
Minister's have moments of impatience
where they just want to get get
something done to coin a phrase and you
know sometimes you need voices of
caution to be able to say well it's a
little bit more complicated than that or
if we want to do this this is the best
way in which we do it and that is where
the Treasury comes in and it doesn't
have to be a purely negative thing but
it can be about what is the best way of
achieving a particular objective and you
know you do have to bear in mind that
there are limited resources you have to
deploy those resources sensibly and a
strong Treasury can enable the
government to deliver successful and
effective policies but it could also
prevent let me raise another point with
you because the budget is about four
weeks away and you've got an entirely
new lot of special advisers you've got a
brand new chancellor of the exchequer
what sort of a mess is the budget going
to be well very interesting question and
you've got to remember that although
it's four weeks away you know there are
certain things that have to be got into
the Office of Budget Responsibility you
know they essentially need to have all
the measures a week or so in advance of
that so it's it's not actually four
weeks injuries all the decisions
have to be made within two or three
weeks from your experience well to say
the budget is already well to look
exactly I mean it has already been met
and presumably effectively a large
elements of it will be not all the
decisions will have been made but the
choices that could be made will have
been narrowed so the options will become
clearer and one would hope that most of
the work into in the to the next budget
will have been completed but yes it's
it's they're gonna be burning the
midnight oil for the for the next few
weeks one very brief question then what
about this Dominic Cummings is it
healthy back I don't think it is you
will not be surprised for me to hear
that given given my personal history but
I do think that there is a lot of power
of being concentrated in the hands of
the Prime Minister and the Prime
Minister's chief adviser and just on the
pure complexity of governments there are
so many decisions that have to be made
so much has to be taken into account it
is very hard for one or two people to do
that that's why you need strong
departments not just the Treasury but
other departments as well that really
understand the issues that can bring
that knowledge and expertise to making
judgments because if it comes down to
the the whims if you like of just one or
two people you end up making very
foolish errors David Koch thank you very
much indeed for joining us