EUROPEAN COUNTERPARTS.
>> WELL BE FOLLOWING THIS WITH
FURTHER CONVERSATIONS THROUGHOUT
THE SHOW.
>>> BUT WE WANT TO TURN TO
POLITICS NOW, FULTON COUNTY,
GEORGIA, WHICH WILL UNDERGO
ANOTHER AUDIT OF 2020 ABSENTEE
BALLOTS FOLLOWING CLAIMS OF
FRAUD.
THE FRIDAY RULING BY A JUDGE
ALLOWS THE BALLOTS TO BE
UNSEALED CLAIMING THAT FULTON
COUNTY ELECTION WORKERS COUNTED
FRAUDULENT BALLOTS.
IT WILL BE DONE UNDER A THE
SUPERVISION OF A SPECIAL MASTER
APPOINTED BY THE COURT.
THE STATE OF GEORGIA CONDUCTED
THREE AUDITS SOON AFTER THE
ELECTION, ALL OF WHICH
REAFFIRMED THE ORIGINAL OUTCOME
OF THE RACE.
MEANWHILE, REPUBLICAN
CONGRESSMAN LIZ CHENEY CONTINUES
TO SPEAK OUT, SITTING DOWN WITH
JONATHAN SWANN FOR AXIOS ON HBO.
>> YOURE TRYING TO CHART A NEW
COURSE FOR THE PARTY, AWAY FROM
DONALD TRUMP, AWAY FROM THE LIE,
AND IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THERE
ARENT PEOPLE WILLING TO BUY
WHAT YOURE SELLING.
WHERE DO YOU GET THE HOPE FOR
THIS, THAT THIS IS GOING TO
WORK?
>> BECAUSE I LOVE THIS COUNTRY.
>> RIGHT.
>> BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN OUR
DEMOCRACY AND I BELIEVE IN OUR
CONSTITUTIONAL PROCESS AND
SYSTEM.
AND BECAUSE I LOOK AT IT FROM
THE PERSPECTIVE OF WHATS RIGHT.
I THINK THE FUTURE OF OUR PARTY
HAS TO BE BUILT AROUND IDEAS AND
SUBSTANCE.
I THINK WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO
MAKE A SUBSTANTIATIVE CASE FOR
LIMITED GOVERNMENT, FOR LOW
TAXES, FOR A STRONG NATIONAL
DEFENSE, FOR SECURING OUR
BORDERS.
THE IDEAS AND THE SUBSTANCE AND
THE POLICY ARE ON OUR SIDE.
BUT WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO A
PLACE WHERE WERE MAKING THOSE
ARGUMENTS.
>> HOW MUCH CULPABILITY DO
REPUBLICAN ELITES HAVE FOR
FERTILIZING THE SOIL FOR THE BIG
LIE?
>> THATS NOT AT ALL HOW I THINK
ABOUT IT, YOU WONT BE SURPRISED
TO HEAR.
>> WHY?
>> I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT
THINGS LIKE VOTER FRAUD, IT
CERTAINLY EXISTS.
I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE
RESISTANCE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO
VOTER I.D.
I THINK YOU OUGHT TO HAVE TO
SHOW I.D. TO GO VOTE.
THERES A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THAT AND A PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES WHO LOSES AN
ELECTION, AFTER HE TRIED TO
STEAL THE ELECTION, AND REFUSES
TO CONCEDE, AND CONTINUES TO SAY
THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN,
SUGGESTING THAT OUR DEMOCRATIC
PROCESS IS INSUFFICIENT OF
CONVEYING THE WILL OF THE
PEOPLE.
>> YOU DONT SEE ANY LINKAGE
BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP SAYING THE
ELECTION IS STOLEN AND THEN
REPUBLICANS IN ALL OF THESE
STATE LEGISLATURES RUSHING TO
PUT IN PLACE THESE RESTRICTIVE
VOTER LAWS?
>> I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT
THE SPECIFIC WAS OF EACH ONE OF
THOSE EFFORTS.
I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE
GEORGIA LAWS, FOR EXAMPLE,
THERES BEEN A LOT THATS BEEN
SAID NATIONALLY ABOUT THE
GEORGIA VOTER LAWS THAT TURNS
OUT NOT TO BE TRUE.
>> BUT EVEN THOUGH THE
REPUBLICAN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR
OF GEORGIA, GEOFF DUNCAN SAID
THAT WHEN THIS BILL STARTED TO
PICK UP MOMENTUM WAS WHEN RUDY
GIULIANI WAS TESTIFYING THAT THE
GEORGIA ELECTION WAS A SHAM.
I DONT THINK ANYONE DOUBTS THAT
THE REASON 400-SOME VOTING BILLS
HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED, 90% BY
REPUBLICANS, SUPPORTED BY THE
REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, I
DONT THINK ITS A COINCIDENCE
AFTER THE ELECTION THAT THIS HAS
HAPPENED.
>> LOOK, I THINK EVERYBODY
SHOULD WANT A SITUATION AND A
SYSTEM WHERE PEOPLE WHO OUGHT TO
BE ABLE TO VOTE AND HAVE THE
RIGHT TO VOTE CAN VOTE.
AND PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, DONT,
SHOULDNT.
AND AGAIN, I COME BACK TO THINGS
LIKE VOTER I.D. --
>> BUT WHAT ARE THEY INVOLVING
FOR?
ITS LIKE, WHAT ARE ALL OF THESE
STATES DOING?
>> WELL, EACH STATE IS
DIFFERENT.
>> WHAT WAS THE BIG PROBLEM IN
GEORGIA THAT NEEDED TO BE SOLVED
BY A NEW LAW?
WHAT WAS THE BIG PROBLEM IN
TEXAS?
WHAT WAS THE BIG PROBLEM IN
FLORIDA?
THESE LAWS ARE COMING ALL AROUND
THE STATES, AND LIKE, WHAT ARE
THEY SOLVING FOR?
>> I THINK YOUVE GOT TO LOOK AT
EACH INDIVIDUAL STATE LAW, BUT I
THINK WHAT WE CAN ALL AGREE
ON --
>> BUT YOU CANT DIVORCE THEM
FROM THE CONTEXT?
>> YEAH, BUT WHAT WE CAN AGREE
ON IS WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT
NOW IS VERY DANGEROUS.
WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE
INAUGURATION, SITTING ON THE
INAUGURAL PLATFORM IN JANUARY OF
2001, WATCHING AL GORE.
OF COURSE, WE HAD WON.
IM SURE HE DIDNT THINK THAT HE
HAD LOST.
WE HAD FOUGHT THIS POLITICALLY
VERY, VERY INTENSE BATTLE AND HE
CONCEDED.
HE DID THE RIGHT THING FOR THIS
NATION.
AND THAT IS ONE OF THE BIG
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THAT AND
WHAT WERE DEALING WITH NOW.
AND THE DANGER OF DONALD TRUMP
TODAY.
>> AND JONATHAN JOINS US NOW.
AND JOE, I WANT TO GO BACK TO
JONATHANS FIRST QUESTION FOR
LIZ CHENEY, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW,
WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET THE
SUPPORT FM
SUPPORT?
I FOUND ONE PERSON IN FLORIDA
YESTERDAY AT A BIRTHDAY PARTY,
DIE-HARD REPUBLICAN, WORKED IN
THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY HIS WHOLE
LIFE, TURNED INDEPENDENT, ONLY
BECAUSE OF TRUMP.
BUT IF SOMEONE LIKE LIZ CHENEY
WERE TO COME ALONG, HE WOULD
BECOME A REAL, TRUE REPUBLICAN.
AGAIN, THE CONVERSATION WAS MUCH
LIKE THE ONES WE HAVE, WHERE THE
REPUBLICANS ARE TURNING THE
PARTY INTO SOMETHING ITS NOT.
IT IS THE INSURRECTIONIST PARTY.
THEN THERE ARE REAL REPUBLICANS
AND THE QUESTION IS, HOW MANY
WILL COALESCE IN THAT GROUP?
AND THE DEMOCRATS.
AND WE NEED A REAL REPUBLICAN
PARTY.
WHAT WE DONT NEED IN THIS
COUNTRY IS AN INSURRECTIONIST
PARTY.
AND THERE IS NO CONVERSATION TO
BE HAD WITH AN
INSURRECTIONIST -- WITH A PARTY
THAT DOESNT EVEN WANT TO
BELIEVE IN BASIC TRUTHS.
>> WELL, A PARTY THAT BELIEVES
THAT DEMOCRACY, AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY IS OKAY ONLY WHEN
THEIR SIDE WINS.
YOU BRING UP A GREAT POINT.
WE HAVE THREE PARTIES IN AMERICA
NOW.
WE HAVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
WE HAVE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY,
AND WE HAVE THE INSURRECTIONIST
PARTY.
AND I THINK ITS REALLY
IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE IN THE
MEDIA TO RECOGNIZE THAT.
AND TO LISTEN TO WHAT LIZ CHENEY
IS SAYING.
AND WHEN SHE SAYS SOMETHING
LIKE, SHE STILL SUPPORTERS VOTER
I.D. LAWS, INSTEAD OF SAYING,
OH, SHES JUST AS BAD AS -- NO,
SHES NOT.
AND YOU MIGHT WANT TO LOOK INTO
THE FACT THAT 80% OF AMERICANS
ACCORDING TO A GALLUP POLL
SUPPORT VOTER I.D. FOR PEOPLE TO
VOTE.
AND THATS A DEBATE.
YOU WANT TO HAVE THAT DEBATE?
THATS A DEBATE THAT WE CAN HAVE
BETWEEN THE GUARDRAILS OF
AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
FOR PEOPLE TO SAY, IF YOU
SUPPORT THAT, YOU MIGHT AS
WELL-BEING SUPPORTING STORMING
THE CAPITOL ON 1/6, ITS OVERLY
SIMPLISTIC AND CONFUSES THE
ISSUES.
THERES THREE PARTY IN AMERICA
WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE.
A REPUBLICAN PARTY WITH PEOPLE
LIKE LIZ CHENEY IN THERE, BEN
SASSE, MITT ROMNEY, OTHERS.
THERES A DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
AND THERES AN INSURRECTIONIST
PARTY FOR PEOPLE WHO DIDNT
RECOGNIZE THE 1/6 ELECTION, WHEN
ARE TRYING EVERYTHING THEY CAN
DO THE CHANGE THE SUBJECT FROM
1/6 AND DONT WANT FACE THOSE
FACTS.
JONATHAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR
BEING THERE.
A GREAT INTERVIEW WITH LIZ
CHENEY, AS ALWAYS.
CONGRATULATIONS ON THAT.
I ALWAYS -- ITS VERY FUNNY.
I REMEMBER, ABOUT A YEAR AGO,
SIX MONTHS AGO ON TWITTER,
SOMEONE SAID, WRITE THE THING
THAT WILL MOST SURPRISE PEOPLE
ABOUT YOU.
AND GARY CASPER, OFF THE
GREAT -- THE RUSSIAN CHESS
MASTER, WHO WAS HARSHLY CRITICAL
OF DONALD TRUMP AND BECAME
SOMETHING OF A HERO TO MANY ON
THE LEFT SAID, YOU ALL WILL BE
SO SURPRISED AND SO DISAPPOINTED
AFTER TRUMP IS GONE BY HOW
CONSERVATIVE I ACTUALLY AM, TO
WHICH I RE-TWEETED AND SAID,
AMEN.
AND LIZ CHENEY IS THERE.
SHES BEING HERALDED BY PEOPLE
WHO HAVE ATTACKED HER HER ENTIRE
LIFE, AND WHEN WE GET BEYOND
THIS, THEYLL START ATTACKING
HER AGAIN.
BUT YOU HEAR THAT INTERVIEW,
LISTEN, NEWS FLASH, LIZ CHENEY
IS A CONSERVATIVE.
>> SHES NOT ONLY A
CONSERVATIVE, SHES PROBABLY ON
THE RIGHT OF THE PARTY.
A VERY STAUNCH CONSERVATIVE.
AND SHE WAS A PARTISAN WARRIOR
DURING THE OBAMA YEARS.
SHES NOW THIS ANATHEMA TO THE
REPUBLICAN BASE.
BUT THATS WHERE HER HEART IS,
SHES JUST DECIDED TO TAKE A
STAND ON JANUARY 6th AND THE BIG
LIE AND DONALD TRUMP.
BUT THE PROBLEM WITH ALL OF THIS
CONVERSATION IS YOU TALK ABOUT
THERE BEING THREE PARTIES, SHE
REALLY IS A FRINGE FIGURE IN THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY.
ITS NOT THAT THERES THIS HUGE
GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HER
AND BEN SASSE AND MITT ROMNEY.
EMPIRICALLY, THERE ARENT, IN
TERMS OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS.
70% OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS
CONSIDER JOE BIDEN ILLEGITIMATE.
THERES POLLING TO SHOW THAT.
70%.
THATS EXTRAORDINARY.
THATS WHERE THE PARTY HAS GONE.
AND THE PARTY ACTUALLY HAS LEFT
LIZ CHENEY.
AND THE REAL CHALLENGE SHE HAS,
IF SHES GOING TO CHART THIS NEW
COURSE FOR THE PARTY, SHE HAS TO
BRING THESE VOTERS BACK TO THE
PARTY.
MANY OF THEM HAVE LEFT THE
PARTY.
AND ITS NOT CLEAR THAT THE
PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES
REPUBLICAN VOTERS ARE GOING TO
BE AMENABLE TO WHAT LIZ CHENEY
IS SELLING.
>> SO WHATS HER NEXT MOVE?
>> WELL, ITS UNCLEAR TO ME,
ACTUALLY.
HER PRIMARY ELECTION IN 2022 IS
GOING TO BECOME A PROXY BATTLE
FOR THE FUTURE AND IN HER VIEW,
THE SOLE OF THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY.
DONALD TRUMP AND HIS POLITICAL
OPERATION ARE DESPERATELY TRYING
TO FIND ONE PERSON TO RUN
AGAINST HER.
THEY HAVENT FIGURED OUT WHO
YET.
AND THE PROBLEM FOR THEM RIGHT
NOW IS THERES A NUMBER OF
PEOPLE WHO HAVE DECLARED
THEMSELVES.
ONE OF THEM HAD IMPREGNATED A
14-YEAR-OLD AND DESCRIBED IT AS
A ROMEO AND JULIETTE SITUATION.
HE SEEMS TO BE OUT OF THE
PICTURE OR AT LEAST RECEDING
FROM VIEW.
BUT THE PROBLEM FOR THEM IS IF
THE FIELD REMAINS DIVIDED, THEY
HAVE A DECENT CHANCE.
IF THEY SETTLE ON ONE, SHES IN
REAL TROUBLE.
YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER WITH LIZ
CHENEY, THIS IS THE OTHER POINT
THATS HARD TO UNDERSTAND.
YOU LOOK AT EMPIRICAL.
SHE IS THREE TIMES MORE POPULAR
AMONG DEMOCRATIC VORTS THAN
REPUBLICAN VOTERS.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE PARTIES,
YOU NEED TO REMEMBER WHERE THE
REPUBLICAN ELECTORATE IS AT.
THEYRE NOT AT WHERE LIZ CHENEY
IS AT RIGHT NOW.
>> SKPOFBL,AND OBVIOUSLY, SHE WO
THOSE RATIOS REVERSED.
AND SO MUCH OF THIS MAY DEPEND
ON THE PASSAGE OF TIME, THE
UNDERSTANDING THAT DONALD TRUMP
IS NOT GOING TO RUN FOR
RE-ELECTION.
IF HE DOESNT.
>> SURE.
>> I HEARD SOMEBODY SHOUT MY
NAME?
>> HE SAID "SURE."
>> PASSAGE OF TIME.
ALSO, THE POSSIBILITY THAT
DONALD TRUMP DOESNT RUN AGAIN,
AND REPUBLICANS START DOING WHAT
THEY HAVENT DONE IN SOME TIME
AND START FOCUSING ON WHO CAN
GET ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES IN 2024.
>> AND WHERE THEYRE AT AT THE
MOMENT, ITS A VERY FRAGMENTED
PARTY, BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE
HOUSE REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE WHO
THEIR THEORY OF THE CASE IS
BASICALLY, DOUBLE DOWN ON TRUMP.
AND YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO
EVALUATE TRUMP AND RUN INTO THE
MIDTERMS ON TRUMP.
MITCH McCONNELL, HIS VIEW IS,
IGNORE TRUMP, HOPE THAT HE
RECEDES INTO THE BACKGROUND.
ITS A STRATEGY BASED ON HOPE.
LIZ CHENEY IS IN A THIRD CAMP.
SHE BELIEVES THAT THE MITCH
McCONNELL APPROACH IS DANGEROUS
AND YOU ACTUALLY NEED TO
CONFRONT DONALD TRUMP AND TALK
ABOUT IT RIGHT NOW AND EXCISE