Ronald: More than one in two African-American men are in the middle or upper class and that
is something that I would not have believed in the front end of our report.
Brad: Ronald, welcome.
It's great to have you here today.
You are the Maurice V. Russel Professor of Social Welfare Policy and Practice at Columbia
University, and we are here today to talk about a new report, "Black man making it in
America," that we've just released here.
Ronald: Right.
Thank you for having me here.
Brad: And I wanted to kind of begin our conversation by asking you, you know, why you think since
2012, we've seen such a market decline in people's sort of attitude about race?
And what I mean by that is if you look at trends in Pew data, for instance, folks who
are both white and who are black are expressing more concern about the state of race in the
United States, more concern about discrimination against African-Americans.
What do you think has sort of changed in the last couple of years when it comes to race
in America?
Ronald: Well, you know, I think it's the trend...among many things, I think it's the transition in
the administrations, from President Obama to President Trump.
And in some ways, the disappointments on many different sides about that transition.
One in which we had the first African-American president and there was nothing short of euphoria
in 2008, but in many ways, I think the promise that people had hoped for in terms of he might...African-American
people for sure, what he might be able to accomplish was disappointing in many ways.
That's one thing.
And then, now we've had a pendulum swing in terms of president Trump and his longstanding
record on race which is, in some ways, a victory for many whites who felt themselves disenfranchised
during the eight years of the Obama administration, and believed and heard someone who spoke to
their sets of concern in 2016 campaign, who's now president of the United States, and whose
record on race and immigration and the like, is certainly championing the issues that are
a concern to lots of low scale whites.
But, that leaves blacks and other people of color really threatened.
And so, I think the conversation around African-Americans is sitting right in the middle of that pendulum
swing, and it's a very serious time for a race in America.
Brad: I mean, I agree with you.
I guess, I wanna also just think about, I mean it does seem like what happened in the
wake of the killing of Trayvon Martin, what happened, you know, in Ferguson and Baltimore,
preceding even the election of Donald Trump, has also kind of cast a pall, if you will,
over kind of race relations and...I mean, it helped to sort of fuel concern of what's
happening.
Is that also part of the story too?
Ronald: Well, but I think that's part of the sense of disappointment.
So you have President Obama, you know, coming to a place where he had to, in some sense,
fess up to the race card with some of his most dramatic speeches, where he touched on
the issue of race.
And then, one of the most remarkable of those speeches was the speech that he gave in response
to Trayvon Martin's killing.
And then, his various efforts of becoming more and more vocal, trying to get ahold of
gun control, following that, and the sense in which he was frustrated in his efforts
to do that.
So, I think that that is part and parcel of the disappointment that is felt on the one
hand, and then, on the other hand, the advocates of gun control are on the other side of it.
So, I think it's part of the set of events that are in there.
And I also think we can't lose sight of the fact that social media has in some ways made
the expression of reactions to these events much more prominent.
As I, sort of, have reflected on this, I don't think conditions for black men are more dangerous
than they have been in the past.
However, we are now much more aware of every single incident.
And therefore, it's much more on the public mind and there's much more, you know, recognition
and awareness of those threats.
Brad: Right.
So, in this sort of general context, we've obviously seen both journalists and scholars
like Ta-Nehisi Coates and Michelle Alexander kind of drawing attention to the ways in which
kind of sort of these big issues around race are particularly consequential for black men
and for black boys.
And, you know, their work has been important and valuable.
At the same time, but I guess, speaking frankly, one of my concerns is that people, both in
the society at large, and in the black community, in particular, may be or may have in, you
know, either in recent years or for a longer period of time, developed a needlessly pessimistic
view of the place of black men in the society.
So, there was one story that was done by Opportunity Agenda, and they were sort of tracking how
the media depicts black men.
And what they found was that words like poverty, incarceration, and unemployment were kind
of disproportionately applied to black men.
You know, over and above the actual trends on the ground for black men.
So, do you think that there is, you know, sort of, kind of, an overly negative picture
out there in the society at large?
And even among African-Americans in particular when it comes to black men?
Ronald: Oh, I think there is and, in part, I think this has much to do...among the people
I would associate with that is, of course, the work of Michelle Alexander in her, you
know, advanced discussion and very well-documented and well-received discussion of mass incarceration.
And, you know, documenting the real condition of African American.
I recall being in an audience talking about...it was mainly a middle-level government administrator
of a variety of programs, it must have been in child support.
And we were cycling around this area of mass incarceration and the effects of that on child
support obligations.
And so, I said in a way, you know, just to connect with the audience, how many of you
in the audience, which were mostly middle-class, many women, many African-American administrators
and child support, how many of you have a friend, close friend or relative who is incarcerated?
And I was amazed that like, you know, 60% to 70% of the audience, had a friend or a
relative who had been ever incarcerated.
So, I think this sort of pervasive...that fact and the, again, the attention drawn to
that, and the damage that it is inflicting on the African-American community does create
this pervasive view of this pervasive negative narrative.
And there's little discussion on the other side, which was why I was interested in co-authoring
this report.
Brad: Right.
And so, you know, kind of, the concern in terms of, you know, highlighting kind of the
more negative parts of this story is that as Alan Jenkins, who's the Executive Director
of Opportunity America wrote, is that you may be kind of deepening, in his word sort
of expectation and biases, in the part of potential employers, teachers, health care
providers, police officers and other stakeholders, you know, regarding black men.
And then, in turn, that may also affect how a young black males who kind of see themselves
and their own prospects for the future.
Do you think that's a legitimate concern that people sort of...perhaps, overly negative
views about black men in America might foster bias?
Ronald: I think it does, and I think it also provides an excuse for bias.
So, let me just give you one poignant example.
I think the defense offered by police routinely who are involved in a shooting of African-American
men is, "I was in fear for my life."
And I think the pervasive discussion of African-American men as perpetrators of crime gives opportunity
for that excuse, and in some cases, legitimatizes that excuse.
And so, people feel, in general, and the police, in particular, which is, I'm really concerned
about this or don't have, you know, effective interpersonal relationships with a lot of
African American, but they hear this constant drone of the threat of African American men
as criminals and the like.
And as a result, that I think contributes to a pervasive view, negative one about African
American men and puts them at risk.
And I think it certainly creates a narrative that African-American parents have difficulty
working with and young people may, well, hearing this constant drone, also frame their own
futures in a way that aren't very positive.
And so, you know, and I will have to admit that my own research has been part of this.
You know, much earlier in my career, I was very much, as I mentioned yesterday, you know,
attracted to, and it ceased my attention, this book that was called, "Young black men
and endangered species."
And that was, I remember this, this is in 19...what?
Early 1990s.
And as a result, you know, many scholars of color went after trying to understand the
nature of the risk that was discussed and continue to pursue a research agenda that
is about better understanding the risk factors that pervade the lives of African-American
men and boys.
And fortunately, I think that's turned the corner in some ways, but I think its high
time that we begin to tell a fuller story about the experiences of that cohort of African-American
men and begin to reframe the way we think about young African-American men today, and
what their futures might look like if we do some things.
Brad: Right.
So, in terms of, kind of, presenting a more accurate picture of what's happening with
black men in America, you know, is it the case that most black men are poor?
Is it the case that most black men will be incarcerated?
And what else do we, sort of, do we find in this new report?
Ronald: Well, you know, I was surprised that a more than one in two African-American men
are in the middle or upper class.
And, you know, this is my research area of expertise and yet, or related to my research
expertise or the beginning of it.
And so, it definitely, you know, belies this idea that most African-American men are incarcerated
or are poor or anything like that.
And so, I think that's a very important finding, and I think one that I hope will get a lot
of attention in the public, particularly, in the African-American community, among stakeholders
who are trying to work with men and boys.
I think the other upside that surrounds...this is our report is entering into a time where
the workaround African-American men and boys or men and boys of color, more generally,
is turning to the positive and trying to galvanize, led in a lot of ways by former President Obama,
in the men and boys, in My Brother's Keeper initiative.
The way philanthropy, including the executive at Lyons, is now pursuing, you know, men and
boys of color and trying to figure out, you know, a variety of interventions that will
promote their well-being.
And I think our report documents that more than one in two African American men are in
the middle or upper class.
And that is something that I would not have believed on the front end of our report.
Brad: Hey, everyone, thank you for watching part one of our discussion with Ronald Mincy.
If you enjoyed what you saw, remember to like the video or leave us a comment.
And if you want to see more, check out part two of this interview.