- Hello, Katie.
- Hi, Armin, hi.
Good to see you.
- How are you?
So wonderful to have you with us.
- Well, it's a privilege,
and thank you for including me.
- Absolutely.
So welcome to the first German online forgiveness
conference.
- Oh, well, you know, that's a beautiful thing to present
to people, and thank you for that.
We can use a lot of forgiveness.
- I think so too.
That's one motivation why we do it.
We really wanna bring it out there
and kind of like make it a common good,
so to speak.
Because we think it's very powerful.
And of course that's why we thought about you.
And I'm so excited to hear from you,
what do you think about forgiveness?
How you do it, what you've experienced and so on.
- Yeah.
So, forgiveness...
For me,
is, you know, my job is to share inquiry in the world.
So forgiveness to me is about
seeing that what I
believed happened
didn't necessarily happen.
So...
- Just in 99% if the cases, that's all.
- Well, you know, 99, 99999.99.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's just so true.
And what I...
It's like there you are, this perfect man
in front of me.
And if I am thinking,
if I'm putting Post-its on you,
mental Post-its on you,
these stickies,
and like, he doesn't like me.
He didn't really want me on his program today.
I'm sure someone made him do it.
I mean that's a little ridiculous.
I don't have very...
I'm not coming with any great hypothetical here.
But I put all those negative Post-its on you
out of my own paranoid mind at the moment.
And so the next time you ask me for an interview,
I tell my office, oh no,
just let him know that I'm unavailable.
And so I am not forgiving you
for being the person I believed you to be.
But that's not you.
So if I take all those Post-its
and I put them on a judgmental worksheet,
all those Post-its I put on you,
what I believed onto you,
and I write them down
and I question those Post-its,
those concepts, those judgments on you,
then you remain completely free
and I'm the only one I wouldn't want,
I wouldn't want myself to be interviewed
by anyone if I'm in that state of mind.
(Armin laughs)
And so I have a lot of work to do
before I can say yes to an interview like this
because I'm doing it to you.
You're never doing it to me.
That's forgiveness.
Seeing what I thought happened didn't.
He doesn't like what I say.
He...
I know he, blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Those are the stickies, the Post-its
that I'm talking about that we put on people.
So the mind is just spinning,
and we're really believing some of those,
or a lot of those thoughts.
So now I've got, let's say, a strong word,
but an enemy.
And you're not.
You are not.
I'm deluded.
So this is this kind of inquiry,
we not only find ourselves
left in a state of forgiveness,
but it is shocking to see that person,
to sit with that...
Let's say I've done the work on you
out of that mind that I put on you,
I've done the work on you,
question those thoughts,
and that the next time I see you
I'm shocked at how intimate we are together.
And so there's nothing between us, I'm connected.
But who took care of that?
You didn't change.
I questioned what I believed about you,
and forgiveness happened.
And there's not even a little,
not even a little...
there's just no evidence of it left.
I can remember it, but it's laughable.
And that is, laughter is good between friends.
And that's, Armin, why I say
no one, no one
can separate me from them.
I'm the only one that can separate me
from another human being.
And if I am not connected,
then that's on me.
I look at what I'm thinking and believing,
I questioned that, I turn it around,
opposites, for those of you the don't know,
the work's always free at thework.com.
And I turn it around,
and I meet you again.
And if I've done anything to hurt you
out of that unkind mind,
the next time I see you I admit it,
I apologize.
And all the bread crumbs are gone.
All those oast bread crumbs, Hansel and Gretel,
where they left all the bread crumbs.
So my life is about picking up those bread crumbs,
all of them that appear,
and then if I drop another one, pick it up.
That way people can live in the present
without a past.
- Yeah, wonderful.
I was just gonna say it's an inside job,
which it is, taking all those Post-its,
those sticky notes away.
And I really liked what you said
about maybe, possibly hurting someone else
by this attacking and awful mind of mine.
So then it also,
well, it also starts with an inside job,
like admitting.
First I admit it to myself
that I might have done something.
But then I admit it to him or her,
and that's like,
that's a huge honesty.
- Well, it's very humbling.
- Oh yeah.
- It's quite a turnaround for the ego.
And if it's not sincere, I certainly wouldn't do it.
But if I'm thinking,
so I want until I am,
and admit it and apologize and I make it right
where I can, like if I've gossiped about you,
I've said something unkind about you,
if I've influenced someone negatively on you,
then that's just my crazy.
And I need to make that right and go back to those people
and say, you know, I was nuts.
And this man is a kind man,
a good man.
I'd be telling the truth,
because I have really done my work.
- So the hardest part probably is
giving up the perceived need to be right
or to attack or to, also to separate.
Well, separation is probably an effect
of wanting to be right and wanting to judge.
Probably not wanting to feel how hard it hurts.
- Yes.
And also if I want to be right,
that's my first clue, there's an attachment there,
that's my first clue, that you know,
it's time for me to identify what I'm thinking
and believing about this other human being.
And write those thoughts down,
those judgments and assumptions
and question them and turn them around.
And that's the only way I know
to turn my life around
and to see people as they really are
as opposed to who I believed them to be
prior to investigation.
No enemy,
no enemy,
no enemy.
If I have an enemy that's on me,
not the other way around.
So we're talking about complete forgiveness here,
total forgiveness.
- Yeah, yeah.
Which is a process obviously, because it takes time,
but...
- It sure does.
- Yes.
Of course.
But it's a process that you can complete, right?
- Yes, it is.
- And that's the good news.
- And you know, it's,
I never know myself if it's completed.
That's the beautiful thing about life,
it will show me what I've missed.
That's what life's all about.
The enlightened mind.
The enlightened mind has nothing to forgive.
It's beyond judgment.
- And well, I'm guessing another effect...
- Or the kind of judgment we're talking about
that would leave need for forgiveness.
- Mm-hm.
And I'm guessing, like the self image,
how I conceive myself also changes
bit by bit when I'm doing this work, right?
- Oh my goodness, yes.
My identity...
My identity is sitting with this person
I'm putting Post-its on,
and my identity is I'm the one that knows.
And I know that you're unkind, you're unfair,
you don't like me.
You're just placating me.
You know, et cetera, et cetera.
And I do the work and those Post-its
are off of you, they're gone.
And I'm connected.
I'm connected.
My true nature is available,
and so yours is available.
But this identity I had, I'm the one that's right,
that's hard.
That's really hard.
It takes defense.
It takes a life of defending.
And defense is the first act of war.
So there's the clue for that.
- Yeah.
- This being right
is being...
It is a being identified.
And unquestioned mind.
I have no way of knowing,
you know, when I'm right about another human being.
It's enough to know what's right for me in my life.
It's a full time job.
But I have to like me
to deal with me.
And if I don't like you I don't like me.
So you're the key to my own heart.
- Yeah.
Wonderful.
So the things that seem to happen to us,
like if we put it up a notch,
you said, like, you have this image of someone
who hasn't done anything to you,
but let's say someone does something to you.
For example, calls you names
or neglects you
or you understand where I'm getting,
who slaps you.
- Yeah, yeah.
If someone slaps me, what I love about that
is it's over.
I mean it's over.
Now if he's going to slap me,
am I okay in this moment?
Like here's my face and here's his hand,
am I okay in this moment?
Am I still okay?
And then that happens,
and without a past, am I okay?
Without a past, am I okay?
So without that,
the slap only hurts when I'm living in the past.
And it's only feared when I anticipate
that he's gonna hit me.
So without the past or future,
without remembering or anticipation,
where's the fault on him?
So I'm creating the fault on him.
So the next time I see you,
I'll recall that,
but I won't recall attacking you.
Or saying, oh, you hurt me.
Well, my remembering and anticipating is what hurt me,
that doesn't hurt.
- Wow.
That's radical.
I like it.
- So there's nothing to forgive.
Still.
You hit me.
You're not my enemy.
What I'm believing about you
is that is you perceive that it's not you.
So if I'm afraid of you, I'm not connected,
and I can't even talk to you
about, you know, what were you thinking
when you hit me?
Have I done something to harm you?
Or maybe I look at you
and think, you know,
and he hit me and he may just
not wanna talk to me,
and I go on about my way.
But and if someone hits me,
it doesn't mean that,
people listening to this,
it doesn't mean you're not gonna report it.
It doesn't mean any of that.
It's just that no enemy inside,
complete forgiveness.
Again, forgiveness is...
Holding those Post-its on him
that I was believing from past future.
And if someone says, what did he do to you?
He hit me.
And that's, you know, he hit me.
It's over.
I mean inside of me, I just saw him hit you.
How do you feel about that?
Oh, you know, I feel like it's over.
But in an unquestioned mind,
how do you feel about him?
I think he's terrible.
I don't know why he hit me
and I didn't do anything to him to deserve that.
(mumbles)
So I am just, I am,
there's no forgiveness in that.
So when people say they want forgiveness
in their life, it's, you know,
it's, really?
Really?
Because we think if we're not in fear
we're not protected and our physical bodies
are at stake.
And mind is not body, so work with the mind
and the body will follow.
- Wonderful.
That's the cause, right?
The mind is always the cause.
- Mind is cause, body's effect.
- Yes.
- Mind is cause, enemy is effect.
- And story and personality and taking it personal
and all the (laughs)
- All the...
- All the whole shebang.
- And the whole thing.
If I see you as an enemy,
I am insane.
And fear is insane.
It hurts.
It's suffering.
And it's not as though
we can do something about it
when we have no way of knowing about it.
And that's, again, you know, for me,
I don't call it The Work for nothing.
I had to collect my thoughts and question them
and be completely open to the answers for it to work.
They don't work if we're not open to the answers.
And it takes stillness.
When we ask, is it true?
For example, we need to sit and get still and meditate
on that question, to see what meets it.
And what meets it is big medicine.
It will shift you right out of identity.
- Oh, wow.
Thank you.
So it's...
This meeting,
the question, the issue, or whatever,
the story.
Let's say what heals it is not putting up the question
is what is the connection or it's the meeting,
what meets it, which is the mind.
- Yes, what meets the question
is the answer to the question.
- Oh my God.
Okay.
I think I haven't understood the work before.
I think I'm getting closer.
Thank you.
- You're welcome.
- It's deep.
- Yes, it is.
- Thanks.
I didn't want to cry, but here we are.
It's such a relief.
Thank you.
- Yes.
Yes, it is.
- Because then you have access to what is true.
Oh.
(sighs)
Thank you.
- It's beautiful.
These beautiful moments of recognition.
The beautiful self.
- And now I'm just realizing there...
If you call it forgiveness
or whatever you wanna call it,
there's no other way.
If you don't get access to that,
how can you, I mean, not stay in the story?
If there isn't a real and better alternative,
how can you not stay there and not keep suffering?
- That's why we don't know how to end war in the world.
And this is the end of war in the world.
You see, this is the end of war in my world.
And this invitation that you have dropped into
so deeply, that's the beginning of the end of the war.
We could say it is the end of the war in you,
just now.
Just this beautiful,
beautiful gift of now.
Beautiful man, good man.
And...
I love...
The...
The way that you...
Open
so...
So childlike, so innocently.
Knowing that an audience is going to witness this.
We have much in common.
It's a gift,
this self.
This recognition.
It's...
It's a gift.
The tears are just a part of the leaving.
- Oh yeah, I know.
Yeah.
- It's beautiful.
And they're only like the physical
evidence of the recognition
we experience inside.
- Yeah.
- Like this flower opening.
The petals falling, it's so beautiful.
(laughter)
- Thank you.
(laughs)
I...
I just said to my wife,
I do have
even more informal questions
for you.
Do you mind if I...
- Of course not.
And of course I can say, I don't know.
Ask those questions and we'll find out.
- Exactly.
You can always say no.
- And who knows the future?
- Yeah, exactly.
Can I tell you something?
Pbht!
(laughter)
- Yeah, I get it.
(laughter)
- I read a little bit about your story,
and when you were,
like when you hit rock bottom,
and saw the cockroach.
I am very much interested in,
did you do something
that you could connect with your waking up?
Did you, was something going on in your mind?
- I was just in this dead sleep.
And many years of depression.
And in this dead sleep I was woken,
or awakened, so suddenly,
that mind didn't have an opportunity
to identify as object.
As body.
As object.
So, without identification...
I mean that was the experience.
And then I experienced
the mind happening,
and all of a sudden there was sky and windows
and walls and ceiling.
And but it still didn't connect
as this physical body.
It...
It wasn't a part of it.
But then as I
would say,
it began to just laugh.
Because it saw how the entire,
how my world was created.
It's nothing until it's named,
and then it's still nothing
until you believe that name.
And then the object becomes the apparent real.
So and then it,
in that laughter,
eventually just, it stood up.
It walked out of the room into a back room
and looked into the mirror.
And then it connected,
you know, the eyes.
I do this at the school for the work.
It's like something happened.
The eyes locked.
An it was a kind of identification
that was so subtle, so gentle,
so ineffective and entirely effective.
And The Work was born on that floor.
I saw that nothing was true.
And I saw how I reacted when I believed
that thought...
How do you react what happens when you believe
the thought?
I saw the entire world created in that moment.
And who would I be without it
is me prior to mind identifying.
Objects, window, floor, ceiling.
And then the opposites are true.
And so that enabled...
As I say, as true or truer.
But it's all left up to the mind to determine.
So it gave me a way
to live in the world
without ever living in the world again.
And so those, for people who have really
deep experiences, and I'm sure people have had
at least experiences,
experiences at least as deep as that.
It's just that I had The Work,
so it was maintained,
it was nurtured,
it's alive, this inquiry is alive in me
as it is in many people today.
- So you did apply it afterwards.
- Oh, it's alive, it's alive.
Like if you ask me my name,
I say Byron Katie, inside of me
it's like, Byron Katie?
Or I'd like a drink of water.
It's like, I want a drink of water?
In other words, everything just naturally ends
in a question mark.
The questioning mind.
- Wow.
Wonderful.
- And people that...
Invite this work into their meditation practice,
eventually it becomes a part of their mind as well,
I've noticed.
Just automatic.
But it's nurtured, it is a practice.
Until finally it takes hold of us.
But that takes a very open mind to,
or a very vulnerable.
You know, it's a practice.
It's a meditative practice,
and it does take stillness.
- That's I would say that's discipline
in the best sense.
- Yes, it's fascinating.
It's fascinating.
It's not about emptying the mind.
It's about allowing, surrendering to the mind
and just, just, just
offering up and is it true to the mind
that is childlike enough to entertain it?
- Mm.
- Good spending time with you.
- Likewise.
- Thank you, Armin.
- Thank you.
And best wishes from Switzerland,
Germany, Austria.
- Feels like home.
(laughter)
- By the way, I drove through Barstow.
- Oh, did you?
- A year ago.
Yes, we had to think about you so hard.
- Oh my gosh.
You know, I donated,
there were five houses there.
One, two, three.
There were five houses there,
and when I moved the Center...
I donated that property,
that entire thing to...
Some people who,
it was actually an agency that,
I don't know why I'm telling you this.
I guess just because I love visiting Barstow again.
But to an organization that took in
young mothers that had been abused
and were afraid for their lives.
So it was like a place where they could be,
learn an occupation,
learn how to take care of their children.
So there were cribs in every room
where we used to work and sleep and love and eat.
And it was just so beautiful.
So they could go out and get jobs
and care for their babes.
Then eventually that Center turned into a...
An alcohol and drug rehab place as well.
And I mean, went from one to the other.
Anyway, I love that place.
(laughter)
- A nice symbol for some of your biography.
- Yeah.
Oh, very much so.
- Yeah.
Well, thank you so much for your time,
for your presence, for your wisdom.
And for the connection.
Katie, and...
- Thank you.
And it's a privilege.
And be well, and thank you for the good you're doing,
Armin.
- Thank you.
You too.
Bye.