Professor John Blaxland: Well Pak Marty, thank you for joining me to discuss
your wonderful new book, "Does ASEAN Matter: A View from Within".
Dr Marty Natalegawa: Thank you.
Professor Blaxland: It's a real pleasure to have you here back at the ANU.
I have to say, I really enjoyed reading it.
It covers so much about your personal experience, the journey of ASEAN itself,
and there are so many aspects that are addressed from a personal level
but with significant implications for the countries in ASEAN and for us in Australia.
So, as I say, it's a real pleasure to read and I'm very keen to explore with you some questions about it
I'm just wondering specifically, what prompted you to write this particular book?
Dr Natalegawa: Well, thank you Pak for this opportunity and thank you for your remarks.
Well, at least two types of motivation really, for why I began to write what eventually became this book
First, actually it was very much more of a "note to file".
It was really more, not really purposefully written for a book, it was for my own personal note to file
in the sense of wanting to be sure that my recollections of past events are not impaired and not forgotten
And then a motivation as well was to take stock not only of the past, but also what remains to be done.
Because I would rather I leave it to others to judge and to decipher the past because I am very much,
too much, was very much in it.
So I would rather, the purpose of the book was really to be able to identify what remains to be done
Given what I've done in the past and what I haven't done in the past.
So, initially it was very much a "note to file" but having reflected on it and having shown the notes
to some of my colleagues, they said "look this is something that I should be sharing with the wider public".
But beyond that, actually here at the ANU, I was browsing at the book store and I read some books
and making references to certain events within ASEAN and then I thought to myself
"this description of factual events, I think I can enrich it further", since I was very much within those conversations.
So, those two types of motivations sort of gave me the initiative to proceed.
Professor Blaxland: Now, you asked the question
Does it matter?
And you provide some compelling answers.
So, I wonder if you could walk us through the argument: Does ASEAN matter?
And why do you think so and to what extent is that the case?
Well, I deliberately presented it as a question rather than as a statement
because I thought I needed to encourage a greater sense of humility and open-mindedness
and not to take things as a given, as if ASEAN does matter.
I thought posing it as a question sort of liberated me from thinking within my comfort zone
and to really ask certain questions
and as a result I thought, at the risk of oversimplification,
I have noted at least three types of transformative contributions by ASEAN.
One is in terms of changing the dynamic between Southeast Asian countries.
Prior to ASEAN we had a situation where Southeast Asian countries were essentially in either open conflict
with one another or having very deep tensions and distrust of one another.
Through ASEAN we saw the transformation of trust deficit to strategic trust where the notion of
having an open conflict among Southeast Asian states, ASEAN member states, became increasingly less likely.
Not only that, transformative in the sense of ASEAN's relations with the wider region.
Prior to ASEAN, Southeast Asian countries were very much like pawns in major power relations.
But through ASEAN we've seen their transformation, or the transformation of their position to become central
in the region's architecture building for instance. And not least is transformative in the material benefit
that ASEAN has made possible in terms of economic transformation.
Very much work in progress and a major footnote in respect of the so-called people-centred ASEAN
I think is a notion of an ASEAN that is more sensitive to human rights issues,
sensitive to governance issues.
We began a conversation on this but clearly this is still very much a work in progress and one that cannot be
declared as being entirely successful at this time.
But those are at least the three types of transformative contributions that I thought ASEAN has made
But most importantly, given whats next, how do we ensure we continue to be of relevance.
Professor Blaxland: Now ASEAN has been the subject of considerable criticisms, its got its detractors there is no question.
There are those who even call it a broken reed.
How do you respond to those accusations?
Dr Natalegawa: Throughout its history the obituary on ASEAN has been written many times over
Immediately after the resolution of the Cambodian conflict in the 80s, early 90s,
some began to ask: what is the glue that binds ASEAN together?
But ASEAN always managed to reinvent itself.
Finding a new cause to rally around.
I am confident, notwithstanding the obvious shortcomings of ASEAN, even today
that ASEAN will be able to reinvent itself
and find a new cause around which to rally their efforts.
But this requires a great deal of leadership amongst ASEAN member states.
Certainly not a business as usual mindset of complacency
because all of ASEAN's resilience in the past, its transformative character, have been
have come about not by accident, but by a clear and precise sense of direction of where ASEAN would like to develop next.
Professor Blaxland: I really enjoyed your opening chapter
the historical review from 1967 through to 2017
giving us an insight, a personal insight
that I think is really worthwhile dwelling on.
But I wonder if you, looking back at that period and having studied it and written about it
if you could comment on some areas where you think things could have been done differently.
Dr Natalegawa: Well there's always room for improvement and there's always work left unfinished, incomplete.
I can immediately think of two during my own term under my watch.
One is the expansion of ASEAN to include Timor-Leste.
I thought that Timor-Leste, when they applied to join ASEAN in 2011,
at the beginning of 2011,
that was a very critical moment under Indonesia's chairmanship.
And yet, we were not able to take advantage of that momentum.
I do believe this is very much a subject that needs to be revisited by ASEAN because I believe
a Southeast Asia and ASEAN community that excludes Timor-Leste is one that would be less than complete
than it should be.
The other one I think, another I wish that I had completed
is the accession by the nuclear weapons states on the Southeast Asian Nuclear-Weapon-Free Zone Treaty.
This is, as you know very well, Southeast Asia's efforts to contribute to nuclear non-proliferation in our region
and there was a window that opened up for the accession by nuclear weapons states but somehow
because of expression of reservation upon accession by the United Kingdom and by Russia
ASEAN allowed that situation to essentially result in the postponement
of the accession of that agreement by nuclear weapons states.
Those are the two obvious ones.
But the management of internal developments within ASEAN is always a perennial challenge.
Developments in Myanmar
and many other situations in other parts of Southeast Asia
will always be issues that demand ASEAN's management.
Professor Blaxland: In chapter 3 you write about ASEAN shifting from being a Cold War pawn to ASEAN centrality.
Can you walk us through what happened there?
Dr Natalegawa: I'm not sure. I can't speak for others and I emphasise in my book,
everything that I wrote there is my own personal view.
But, for me, from the very beginning, I have a very clear sense of
a script on which to really pursue ASEAN's outlook and policies on geopolitical developments
and because I saw, I have seen like a very clear development at the early end of ASEAN,
early 1970's,
we saw ASEAN very minimalist in its outlook.
An ASEAN that speaks of neutrality, a zone of peace, freedom and neutrality
and if one was to read that declaration it speaks of ASEAN, Southeast Asia, being neutralised.
So it is an active pacifism almost, that we are saying to the rest of the world, to the major powers,
'neutralise us,' we don't want to be part of your competition.
Opting out, so to speak. From that type of very inward looking,
don't bother us, 'neutralise us',
We saw an ASEAN that began to become more confident
the Southeast Asian Nuclear-Weapon-Free Zone outlook.
An ASEAN having external relations through its dialogue partners of which Australia is the first.
ASEAN Regional Forum, the East Asia Summit.
A very clear progression of ASEAN's increasing confidence in its ability to shape and mould the regions architecture.
But beyond convening power is where the challenge is.
It is relatively easy, given the confidence level others have of ASEAN, for us to be able to organise things.
Organise events, summits.
But it requires far more diplomatic finesse and heft and thought in terms of providing the narrative to those gatherings
and this is where I think the challenge is at the moment.
We are at a crucial stage in this part of the world.
The debates, the Indo-Pacific discussions.
ASEAN must have a script on these types of issues
This is where I think, is the challenge.
But, we can see a trajectory of ASEAN's increasing activism.
Not always clear in terms of constant progress, but certainly constant engagement with the region.
Professor Blaxland: You wrote about a shift from a state-centric to a people-centric ASEAN.
What did you mean?
Dr Natalegawa: Well this is the one I'm a little bit ambivalent. The record is a little bit mixed here.
First of all I think, in terms of officialdom, in terms of official statements, we have seen a definite shift
because if one was to look at the original ASEAN documents,
the Bangkok Declaration and the like,
it's very clear it's a very state-centric outlook by ASEAN.
But increasingly, more and more, we have references to people-centered ASEAN,
people-centric ASEAN,
and I think the principle manifestation of such a people-centric ASEAN has been in the economic domain.
Because, by creating, making possible prosperity in our region, that is ASEAN's biggest contribution.
But, ever since 2003 when we began with the ASEAN political security community,
Indonesia has been trying to introduce the notion that people-centric ASEAN is not only about the material well-being,
but also about governance issues, about human rights, protection and promotion of democratic principles.
This is where I think the record is a bit mixed.
We have now all the wherewithal because now, thanks to over the past almost a decade's work we have all the various instruments within ASEAN.
But those instruments on human rights, on democracies will remain mere potentials in the absence of any strong leadership within ASEAN itself
because those instruments need to be put into effect.
Otherwise, they remain in obeyance, they remain dormant.
And Indonesia's leadership in the past has been extremely critical because
this is a domain where, unlike an economic domain where there are market forces in operation,
this is a domain where we need hand-holding, where we need nurturing, we need prodding, we need pushing,
and in the absence of Indonesia taking the lead as it has in the past, I'm afraid such a project will grind to a halt
and we can see like a regression in this area, this is where I think continued leadership by Indonesia in this domain becomes extremely critical.
Professor Blaxland: Pak Marty, you're launching the book here in Australia.
How do you see ASEAN-Australia relations at the moment?
Where are they going?
What do we need to do to make them better?
And how can we change things?
Dr Natalegawa: Australia has been, no doubt in my view, one of ASEAN's most reliable and most trusted partners.
After all, Australia is ASEAN's first dialogue partner if I'm not mistaken in my recollection,
and all throughout whatever issues of importance in our region, there is always some kind of Australia-ASEAN footprint.
The Cambodian conflict in the 1980s.
Figures such as Professor Gareth Evans, who then, as Foreign Minister of Australia, worked closely with the late
Minister Ali Alatas.
They were instrumental in providing Australia, ASEAN, effective and positive contributions.
So whether it be in the geopolitical domain, in the economic domain,
the Australia-ASEAN partnership has been critical,
this year especially.
2018 received even more fillip because we had the ASEAN leaders meeting here in Sydney I think in March of this year.
Tremendously important.
So, it's one of the stabilisers of the region's peace and prosperity.
Professor Blaxland: Pak Marty, you did your PhD here at ANU.
I wonder if you can tell us a little about your time here at ANU?
Dr Natalegawa: Well, I must say, being here at the ANU, in Canberra in particular,
must be one of the happiest times for me and my then very young family.
That was our first experience living abroad for a rather long period of time.
We were not only enjoying the campus, the University was tremendously conducive for pursuing one's study
but, the city, Canberra, the people here in Canberra, they were so welcoming.
I made so many friends on campus and beyond, which will continue to enrich my experience.
And really, subsequently since when I became Foreign Minister of Indonesia, and problems arised between Indonesia and Australia
I think I had a better sense of the mood and what could be the dynamic here in Australia having spent some time here.
And my wife and I and my kids, we loved our time here.
And that's why whenever there is an opportunity to come to Canberra we'll be on the plane.
Professor Blaxland: Pak Marty, I wonder if you have any advice for young graduates?
Dr Natalegawa: Well, there is not one size fits all.
Right? I mean each and everyone of us will chart his or her own situation,
and uniquely their's.
But at the same time, one of the things that comes to mind
basically for me is
not to underestimate one's capacity to make a difference.
When everything is going, all around you may not be as conducive, just stick to your principles,
and just press on and continue and
and the ANU here, you have given a lot to Indonesia in terms of so many Indonesian students who have spent time here
and subsequently become important figures in Indonesia's body politic and beyond.
And so I don't have any wisdom that can apply to all because everyone will have their own path so to speak
but one thought that I wanted to share is never to underestimate one's capacity to make a difference.
Professor Blaxland: Pak Marty, thank you for your very candid and very illuminating answers to these important questions
drawing on this fantastic book, "Does ASEAN Matter? A View from Within".
Thank you very much Dr Natalegawa: Thank you very much indeed