Brendan Dassey was a 16-year-old
Wisconsin boy with intellectual disabilities
who was interrogated
and confessed to a rape
and murder that he did not commit.
I still got hope and it's gotten stronger
over the years, you know, and having
everybody backing me up, you know, having
them stand by my side and
I got my own army fighting for me.
I'm not done fighting for Brendan Dassey.
There are countless people doing hard time
in American prisons for crimes they didn't commit.
I've interviewed dozens of them for my
podcast and now we're bringing these
powerful human stories to your screens.
Together we can help shed light
on some of the current problems plaguing
our criminal injustice system.
I'm Jason Flom and this is
Brendan Dassey has been stuck behind bars
for over 13 long, miserable
years since he was just 16 years old. for over 13 long, miserable
years since he was just 16 years old.
His story first gained national
attention in 2015 when Netflix released
the multi-episode documentary "Making a Murderer"
that became a true cultural phenomenon.
Brendan and his uncle Steven
Avery were both convicted of the 2005
murder of Teresa Halbach and Brendan
is currently serving a life sentence in Wisconsin.
He's continued to maintain his innocence
and his lawyers and supporters, myself included,
believe with every bone in our
bodies that he was coerced into
a false confession by police.
A new clemency petition hopes to convince
Wisconsin governor Tony Evers of Brendan's
innocence and get him released and sent
home to his family,
at long last,
where he belongs.
Today we have the first
interview ever given by
Brendan Dassey.
We're here with Laura Nirider,
attorney for Brendan now for 12 years.
That's right. Going on 12 years.
Hopefully not for too much longer.
You got involved with Brendan's case at what stage?
Brendan was a 10th grader
in the public school special education system.
That's who he was, in many ways it's still who he is.
For the first eight years or so that we
represented Brendan Dassey,
he was a forgotten person.
He was sitting alone in a prison cell.
I suppose if anybody remembered him it was
as a murderer, and then "Making a Murderer"
was released on Netflix, streamed
by millions of accounts.
It was much bigger than we'd ever
expected.
And suddenly the world was saying Brendan Dassey's name.
Are we ready? Are we recording?
Brendan, are you there? Brendan?
Brendan, are you there?
Yeah, I'm here. All right. Good, good, good, good.
So Brendan, I've got to ask you.
Tens of millions of people now all over
the world, as you know, who have watched
"Making a Murderer" have learned about your
story, have felt like I did,
the sense of outrage and
frustration and want to do something.
Have you seen the movie?
Brendan: No I haven't.
And can you explain,
I mean, is that — can you watch it if you wanted to?
No, I don't think I can watch it here.
No, they don't — they don't get Netflix in prison.
Do you want to see the show
when you get out? Are you interested?
I might, I don't know if I can though.
Yeah.
You mean it might be hard to watch?
Yeah.
You know, more or less because I lived it.
So why would I want to watch it again.
You got involved with Brendan's case at what stage?
I came back to Northwestern after
graduating and for the last 12 years
I've been building the Center on Wrongful
Convictions where we represent Brendan
and other kids just like him.
Steve Drizin, my colleague on the case,
handed me the interrogation video.
The same videos that years and years later
ended up in "Making a Murderer."
I watched them all and my heart broke
and I knew that this is it.
This is what I had to do, fight for
people like Brendan.
What was it about those tapes?
These police, going into the interrogation they know or
they think they know based on their own
investigation that she had been shot in
the head. So they're waiting for Brendan
to describe shooting somebody in the head.
Remember, this is very important.
We already know what happened.
Okay.
Let's just be honest. you're okay, Brendan?
Let's get this out.
And he says, "We choked her." Well, that's that's not right.
So they say to him, okay, you know,
know what else, Brendan, what else did you
do to her? She was stabbed.
Still not right.
So they start dropping him hints.
Something with the head.
What else did you guys do? Come on.
What he made you do, Brendan.
And Brendan says, "We punched her?"
He punched her. And his voice goes up
like that like he's asking a question.
He punched her. And that's still not right.
So it's like, come on, Brendan, what else?
Something with the head. He's actually getting colder,
something where you get hot and cold —
Well, and talk about getting colder, at one point
you know, Brendan's completely at sea and he
says, you know, "We cut off her hair?"
And this goes on and on and on and finally
Brendan, you know, he must get exhausted and he just says:
That's all I can remember.
The officers, at that point,
say to him, "Brendan,
I'm just gonna come out and ask you..."
All right, I'm just gonna come out and ask you...
Who shot her in the head?
And you know, Brendan says, well that was
that was my uncle Steven.
And then, you know, comes one of the most
heartbreaking moments of the entire
interrogation because they say to him
"Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that?"
And he says:
'Cause I couldn't think of it.
He was guessing, the whole time
he's guessing and he had to be told the right
answer because he couldn't guess right.
After Brendan's finished confessing they
allow his mother into the room for the
first time, his mom Barb.
She's been outside in the hallway.
And they let her into the room and the
cameras are still rolling in the room
right and they leave the two of them alone
and they're probably hoping that Brendan's
going to confess to her.
And she says to him,
"Brendan, did you do this?"
And he says, "Not really."
And she goes, "What do you mean
not really?"
You can just hear him say,
"They got to my head."
Did you?
Not really.
What do you mean not really?
They got to my head.
A lot of people think that Brendan is the
only person to ever confess to a crime
he didn't commit. But that's not true.
There are hundreds of Brendan Dasseys
around the world and in fact
the interrogation techniques that we all
saw being used on Brendan,
those are commonly used interrogation
techniques. In fact, officers are taught
to use those techniques.
I can pretty much guarantee that as you're
sitting here watching this today there's
someone being questioned in the United
States right now just the same way that
Brendan Dassey was questioned.
And we know that these techniques are so
powerful. They twist the world so
much that they can cause not only
true confessions but also false
confessions.
Today's visiting day, right?
Yeah, I'll be getting a visit from my mom tonight.
And they just moved you to a place which
is closer to home, which is great.
Yeah. Can you talk about what like your
daily life is like.
Well I wake up for breakfast at
6:30 and then I go to
a day room at 8:15.
And I, you know, either play on my
tablet or play cards in the day
room and then email my family
just hang out with the guys here that
I consider friends.
At 11:30 I eat lunch,
and then there's a count
at 12:25 and then there's
another day room at 12:45.
I'm usually asleep by like maybe 10:30.
One of the great things by the way about
the fact that Brendan did move four months ago is
he actually earned
an early transfer out of maximum security
because of the incredible behavior and
just the trust that the institution has
been placing in him.
Now Brendan had a number of jobs at his
old institution. He was working
with inmates who needed help, vulnerable
inmates, taking care of other people
helping take care of the institution.
And even now you were talking yesterday
about helping the elderly, people who can't
get around, pushing the wheelchairs and
doing that stuff, right?
Yeah I even had to do that yesterday to
push someone up to the library.
Oh I think it was Laura that asked you if
you had a superpower what would it be?
That's right. That's always one of my
favorite questions to ask Brendan.
I would want to have the power to heal
illnesses and diseases all over the world.
And where do you think that comes from?
Well I just like helping people so I
wanted to help other people in the world.
We have filed a petition
with the governor of Wisconsin
asking that he grant
Brendan clemency; that he release
Brendan Dassey from prison.
Governor Tony Evers is
the only person in the world with
the power to do that.
I get these these messages constantly
from people who just
think it's time for Brendan to come home.
We're honored to be in a position where
we can hopefully show the governor
that it is the right time to do this.
Yes and the good news is that by all
accounts this governor is a reasonable man.
He's visited a juvenile detention
facility, it's one of the first things he did.
That's right. He did.
And he comes from the education system.
You know, he was the head of the Wisconsin
Board of Education before he assumed the
governor's office.
And for those who aren't
familiar with the clemency process
clemency is unfortunately
an underused power.
Different governors have very different
approaches to this. Some of them are
extremely stingy is one word or sparing
and others have granted hundreds
including some very conservative governors.
Governor Tony Evers was just elected, just
sworn into office this past January.
So he is restarting this,
this pardons apparatus, this pardons power
that he has that hasn't been in place for
the past 10 years. So he's got a bit of a
blank slate to work
with because this is a state
that gives him enormous amounts of power
to decide who gets
this mercy and who doesn't.
What helps you sort of get through this,
Brendan, as this was all happening to you?
Where did you find your strength?
Mostly having my family support
me and have my back.
Yeah. Especially your mom, right?
Yeah.
That's incredible.
You know, Jason, those letters that Brendan
has gotten, you know, Brendan, why don't you
tell him some of the countries that people
have sent you letters from.
Do you remember some of the countries?
Singapore, England,
Ireland, Iceland,
South America, Canada,
United States.
You got some from New Zealand, right?
Oh yeah. New Zealand too.
Yeah, and even Australia, right?
Yeah, Australia.
It's amazing. And also some from Wisconsin, right?
Yeah.
That's great.
Brendan, if there's something you wanted
to say to all the people who believe in
you out there, what would you say?
That I love them and
that I appreciate everything they're doing
for me and supporting me
and keep it up and I'm proud of them.
Just keep fighting for me and
keep showing your love and support.
And now this is the part of the show
where I get to
just kick back in my chair, turn my
microphone off and leave
it open for you for what I call closing
arguments. So anything you want
to say about anything.
I don't care if you want to talk about the
weather or what you
had for lunch yesterday.
It's all up to you to
say whatever you want.
As we close the show, so Brendan,
thanks again and please
share us your closing arguments.
I don't know what to say.
I love Pokemon and
my favorite Pokemon is Mew
but there is a new one coming out
called Alcremie that I really like
and
hopefully I get to see some other more new
ones coming out pretty soon.
Well that's that's good
enough.
And you know I think it's actually
perfect.
Thank you for taking the time to learn
this important story but please remember
it's not an isolated incident.
Best estimates are that ten thousand
people are wrongfully convicted in the
U.S. each and every year for
crimes they didn't commit and
these wrongful convictions mean that the
real perpetrator may still be out there.
There's no justice for the victims'
families. And then we all lose
when the criminal justice system or
injustice system we rely on
in a fair and just society becomes
corrupted.