David in Fairmont, Minnesota. Hi David, you are first with Tim. Hey, yeah.
Hey, David. So my question is about the nature of the Church. My buddies and I
were talking, and they were really only feeling that the Church is just the
people that make up the Church, and that there isn't anything more to the
Church. Right. But you know, all grace comes from God
through the Church. Correct. I'm just wondering--if a Native American who had
never met somebody or ever heard of Jesus still has a chance to get to
Heaven, which requires sanctifying grace, how would they receive that
grace if the Church is just the people of the Church? Gotcha. Well let me--yeah,
let me jump in, David, because you've you've got several questions here, and
thank you for your call. First of all, when we talk about the Church properly
speaking, you know--remember David, people will speak of the Church as
meaning the entirety of the Body of Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic
Church, for example, in paragraph 830, talks about the definition of the
Catholic Church, and it refers to the Greek word for "church" being "ecclesia"
which means "the called-out ones," so, you know, in that loose--in a loose sense, you
can say that the Church consists of the called-out ones, those who are separated
unto God through Baptism and such. However, that same paragraph there in
paragraph 830 also points out that "the Church" also has this sort of double
meaning; it means....the word itself comes from a couple of Greek
words as well--or a preposition and a word-- "katholikos," that is, "that which is
according to the whole." And that gets at that
understanding that you were just mentioning, David, and whether you knew it
or not, you were actually referencing Ephesians 1:22-23
where *Paul says that the Church is the body of Christ, "the fullness of him who
fills all and is in all." So the Church is Jesus Christ extended into this world.
So just as Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, "No man can come to
the Father except through [him]," right, John 14:6; well the Church is Jesus Christ
extended into the world, therefore the Church is necessary for salvation,
because all grace comes through the Church. Now secondly, when he talks
about the Church as just being the "people of God," again, in a
very loose sense, there's truth to that; however the Bible is very, very clear, you
know, when St. Paul talks about the Church. For example, go to Ephesians
4:11. He says, "God has placed in the Church apostles, prophets,
pastors, evangelists, and teachers, for the work of the ministry, for the building of
the body of Christ till we all come to the unity of the faith" (now I'm skipping a
couple verses there), and why? Verse 14 says, "So that we henceforth be not
children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine." So notice, the Church
consists of an hierarchy, right, apostles, prophets--and remember, David: St. Paul
asks a rhetorical question in 1 Corinthians 12, where is that, about verse
26: Are all apostles? No. Are all prophets? No. So everyone's not an apostle, so we
have a hierarchy. This is why Jesus can say in Matthew 18:15-18, David,
that if our brother offends against thee, we go tell him his fault between
him and us alone; if he hears us, we've gained our brother; if he won't hear us,
we take one or two with us, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every
word may be established; and if he will not even hear them, you tell it to the
Church. So notice there's a hierarchy here, right? You go to your brother, can't
sell it, take one or two; but still can't sell it, you take it to the Church. So
there is the Church that is hierarchical, that has
authoritative voices in it--namely, the Apostles, and their successors the
bishops, and St. Peter and his successors the Popes. So that's important to lay out
here. But now, the next part of your question, though, is is a very good one:
what about those who don't have access to the Church? You know, someone that's
out in the middle of the jungles of Africa and has never heard of of the
Church? Is there the possibility of salvation? And the Catholic Church says
yes; though all grace ultimately comes through Jesus Christ and His Church,
those graces can reach souls in extraordinary ways. The Catholic Church
teaches that if someone is truly and INVINCIBLY--
and that's the key--invincibly ignorant of the truth--for example, David, in 1949
the then Holy Office responded to a particular situation
going on, centered in the Archdiocese of Boston, with what we call
now the Feeneyites, who were teaching a sort of strict
interpretation of "no salvation outside of the Church." The Church responded to
that and said: while, you know, in essence, while it is true there's no salvation
outside of the Church--that's an infallible teaching--the graces of the
Church can reach to people who are where they are through no fault of their own.
That's what the Church means by "invincibly ignorant;" they're not culpable
for, they're not responsible for, their ignorance. And if, you know, in ways known
to God alone, supernatural faith, charity, are being communicated to that person by
grace and they are responding to those graces, David, ultimately those graces
come through Jesus and His Church. But they are disseminated in ways that
sometimes we're not privy to. We are privy to the way those graces are
distributed in in some contexts. For example, Orthodox believers who have all
seven sacraments; they are real, they are valid, and thus
graces are communicated. Protestants who have two valid sacraments--presumably--
right, baptism and and marriage; those are real avenues of grace. So again,
for those who are invincibly ignorant in those communities, and God alone is
the judge of who these people are--we evangelize everybody--but if in fact you
do have some who are invincibly ignorant and they cooperate with the grace
of God, where they are, the best they can, God alone is the judge of whether they
meet that criteria or even what the criteria ultimately are; then they have
the possibility of salvation. So the same can be said analogously for those
who are outside of the Christian faith don't have baptism or anything...you know,
the fellow in the jungle that we were talking about before. Even though he
doesn't have baptism...you know, the the Catechism of the Catholic Church
talks about this in paragraph 1260 and 1261. The Catechism says that those who
have not been baptized may receive the graces of baptism through that desire
and their cooperation with grace; and the Catechism says they would have received
baptism if they would have known about it. So you know, that's kind of a
thumbnail, David, does that help at all? Well, I was more wanting to focus on, like,
besides just the people of the Church-- even the hierarchical, you know, the Pope
and the Cardinals--is there still more, like a second, like in the Catechism
770 it says a "visible" and a "spiritual" reality of the Church;
you know, is there more to it than just the people who have been--who are in
the Church or have been in the Church through history? Yeah, absolutely,
David, because what I just said applies here. And I appreciate that
follow-up, because let's be clear that we have both visible members of the
Church and invisible members--namely, the Church suffering and the Church
triumphant, right? We have Saints in Heaven who you and I can't see, but they
are members of the body of Christ, in fact more radically
than we are. The members of the Church suffering in Purgatory are members of
the Church; and then of course that extends to those that are baptized
outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church that are truly possibly
in a state of grace and such, and again God's the judge of that.
Those are members of the Church, even though they are--the Church makes clear,
for example in "Lumen Gentium" paragraph 16, if you want to take a look at that,
David, from the documents of Vatican II, it's an excellent little synopsis there,
but it talks about how that folks can be either related--it uses two different
words there in the Latin text--related to the people of God, or even imperfectly
joined to the people of God. Those outside--you know, the unbaptized,
for example--it uses the term "can be related" to the people of God by that
desire that we talked about before, and their cooperation with grace right where
they are. And those who have valid Sacraments, like our Protestant friends
and the Orthodox, are actually joined to us, though in an imperfect union. So all
of that, my friend involves that invisible reality. Now those of us that
are Catholic, we're on the registry at our local parish, I can see--I mean I can
see Chris Check, he's sitting right here, I can see Nick Chamberlain, that are
sitting out here in the control room, they are visible members that I can look
at; but there's all sorts of folks who are either related or joined
to us, imperfectly and such, that I can't see, as well as the Church militant and
suffering--er, the Church triumphant and suffering as I said before. Does that
help, David? So they're beyond the people, though, there's--the Church
isn't somewhat of an entity on its own? Sure, it is. Absolutely, it is. The Church
is--once again, Ephesians 1:22 and 23, and check out the Catechism, too, in paragraph
830--the Church is the Body of Christ, but we are the mystical Body of Christ, and
so that mystical body includes all that I
mentioned before; but it's not beyond--you know I don't know what you're
getting at there "beyond the people." We're not talking about dogs, cats, birds, and
bats here, right? But we're talking about those who are related to, or joined to,
the Church, either imperfectly or more perfectly, that is, those of us
who are members of the Catholic Church formally, have our name signed on a
registry. Is that what you're getting that, David? Well...kind of. I mean, just like,
if there weren't...like, the Church is an entity somewhat on its own, though, even
independent of the people? Yeah, it's the Body of Christ. It's the
Body of Christ, that's right. If I leave it, you know, I don't hurt the
Church whatsoever, I hurt myself. The church is a definitive reality, but it is
confined to the Body of Christ. It is the Body of Christ. That is the definitive
reality, and those of us who--we are either joined to or not joined to that
definitive reality which is the body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Appreciate
your call, brother.