- Today we're talking about face-to-face communication
and why it is so important,
and joining me today is Dr. Sarah Tracy,
so let's get into the details.
(relaxed blues guitar music)
Hey there, welcome back.
Today we have a very special guest,
Dr. Sarah J. Tracy, a good friend of mine.
She's a professor at Arizona State University.
She also does speaking and workshops
on relationship and connection, so Sarah,
thanks for being here.
How are you?
- I'm great, great to be here, Alex.
- I'm so glad to have you on.
So let's just jump right in.
The first question is, there's a lot going on
in people's lives today that make the issue
of face-to-face conversation that much more important.
Can you talk a little bit about what's going on today
that makes this so critical?
- Yeah, some of the leading experts
actually suggest that we are experiencing
an epidemic of loneliness in the United States,
and that disconnection, rise of social media,
and a decrease of embodied conversation
has something to do with that,
also is increasing communication anxiety.
Third of all, people are losing the ability
to empathically connect with one another,
to actually be able to do perspective taking
and see other people's points of view.
- Yeah, there's a lot of challenges.
It seems like, we were talking the other day
how it's twofold.
We're doing less conversation,
so we're losing that time building relationships,
but also, since we're not doing it
we don't have the skills anymore
so that when we actually are face-to-face,
we just don't do it very well.
We don't handle it very well.
So what's going on today?
What are the contributing factors
to us losing that ability to connect?
- Yeah, you know, one of the things that you pointed to,
Alex, is just this decrease in practice
and having face-to-face conversations.
You know, when you and I were young,
we had the family phone, and even these sort of
inane small conversations of, "Hello, Tracy residence.
"This is Sarah speaking."
And making small talk with our parents' friends,
my brother's friends, et cetera,
gave us that daily practice,
and people are wearing more and more earpods,
looking at their phones and so on,
so whereas we might've passed the time in an airport
or in public transportation
having these conversations with strangers,
we're more likely to be engrossed
in our own mediated communication
with people we already know or are connected to.
- Very, yeah, we're just losing that ability.
People get so nervous just to have a common conversation,
to just ask a stranger a question,
like if they're in an unfamiliar part of town,
or to say hello to them in passing.
So we are involved in texting, and social media.
Clearly lots of email, and we're on those a lot,
and yet, they're not really that good
at building these genuine connections.
Why is that?
- Well people go to social media intending to connect.
However, the research shows that we actually feel worse
after being on social media.
The average per day, by the way, 2 1/2 hours a day
that we spend on social media.
- It's crazy. - So obviously we're craving
that connection, but the thing is
is on social media, we're more likely
to come across these sort of Photoshopped pictures.
I call it Photoshopped lives.
Some people have called is curated selves,
like we curate a museum, we curate our brand as a person,
and so this ends up leaving us feeling
like our lives in real life are not as great
as our friends' life, and this social comparison
is a happiness killer.
- Yeah, you can feel it, you know.
If I'm on social media too long,
I start to feel that sense of dissatisfaction,
like, "Oh, I'm not going on any good vacations
"compared to everybody else."
You know, "My life isn't as good."
And it's almost like we're,
we might even go there, like you say,
intending to connect, but then instead we end up
pushing out this personal brand.
We're marketing ourselves, a certain picture,
a certain persona that we're pushing out,
so I can't really be authentic.
I mean, I could in theory, but we don't see
that much authenticity.
You don't see people having a bad day
and using social media to then feel better.
- Yeah, the research actually shows
that people use the emojis for negative emotions
hardly at all compared to the positive emotions,
and so one of the downsides of that too
is we really don't see when other people are suffering,
and we are most likely to reach out and connect to someone
when we see that they are suffering,
so it's almost like the suffering becomes invisible,
and then that fuels the disconnection between people.
- Yeah, yeah, like if they don't see it,
it doesn't exist, and even the other thing
is sometimes you'll see someone maybe saying weird things,
but you're not sure how to engage with it anyway
on social media, whereas if we were in person,
you might sense the moment a little more.
You could pick up on small things, and then speak into that.
Now I've been saying face-to-face conversation,
you like the term embodied conversation.
Can you tell me what you mean by that?
- Yeah, well embodied, what I mean by that
is that you have access
to a number of different nonverbal cues.
So ideally, right, that's face-to-face,
so we're with our family, friend, we hear the burps,
the farts, the giggles, that, you know, the dirty diaper,
the smell of the great food being made and so on,
and it gives us a sense of connection,
but even when it cannot be face-to-face,
it can still be embodied in some ways,
like you and I, we're able to see each other right now.
I'm able to see if I say something,
and it doesn't hit exactly right
by maybe a tone of, or a facial expression,
and even telephone, we know that
the way somebody says something
affects how we understand the message,
and so knowing the tone of voice, is this sarcasm,
is the person really excited, et cetera.
- So why is it that
that embodied conversation is so important
for our well-being?
- Well there's a couple reasons.
First of all, if we are at all suffering,
upset, or angry, there are likely to be
a lot fewer misunderstandings when we have access
to multiple nonverbal, paravocalic cues.
So that's one thing.
The second thing is that the happiest people in the world
are those that have the most social connections,
and so when we go running to our phone or social media
intending to think we're gonna get that social connection,
we could be better spending that time
and we get more of a happiness boost
if we were with people face-to-face,
and when we see them face-to-face,
we realize that they are whole human beings,
and they may have beautiful aspects to their life,
but they're also suffering, and so we're less likely
to do that social comparison as well.
- Yeah, I also enjoy, this is a little off the thing,
but when I'm with someone in the room,
I can actually see how they react to other people,
and so it helps me get to know them
in a three-dimensional way
compared to just receiving a message over an email.
- Right, it goes from beyond didactic
and like, you know, these two little information things
to this whole relationship, which includes a lot of people.
- So what are the kinds of issues
that are especially important to think about
for a face-to-face conversation?
- Yeah, so whenever someone is suffering or upset,
embodied conversations are much better
than mediated conversations,
and that's because lots of times we don't know what to say,
but even a facial expression, or a hand on a shoulder,
or a pat on the back, or a hug is going to show
that we are with the other person,
we acknowledge their suffering,
or if somebody is upset or angry,
we can show that "Oh gosh, I got it."
Like, "Goodness, I got that you're angry."
Because when people are upset, first of all,
they need to feel acknowledged before they're going
to take any information or advice
and be willing to solve the problem,
and so trying to mediate conflict over,
trying to mediate conflict over mediated communication
is a recipe for disaster.
- Yeah, it doesn't work.
I can't think of a single conversation over email or text
that started bad, and all of a sudden got better.
(Sarah laughs) You know, it seems like
we always read into it in exactly the wrong way,
but if you're face-to-face,
you can sense their mood a little more.
You can kinda tell what's going on,
and you hear it, I think,
closer to the way they may have intended it.
So when-- - Yeah, these little
micro-expressions people are able to provide.
- The tiny little things.
They're hard to name, but you can feel it
when you're there, so when is it okay?
When should we feel okay about using email,
and text, and social media?
- Yeah, definitely.
I'm not saying that everything should be solved
by embodied conversation, and whenever really
the point of communication is to deliver information,
mediated communication is fantastic,
and can be much more efficient.
In fact, having meetings, for instance,
where everyone is together, and it's just one report
after another report, after,
sounds like you've been there.
- Yes, I've been there. - There's no reason, yes.
Yes, so-- - Yeah, you think,
why are we even meeting?
We coulda just put an attachment on an email
and this would've been done.
- Yeah, so if you need to make decisions and collaborate,
meetings are great ways to do that,
but just information, email is fantastic.
- Right, so we're talking about organizations
a little bit in here in terms of meetings,
and so what can businesses, what can leaders do
in the workplace to encourage more
face-to-face conversation?
- Yeah, well more and more companies are realizing
that their first thoughts of like,
"Oh, we're going to make everything efficient
"through telecommuting, and emails."
And so on, but it really does not always solve the problem,
and so some companies are really
going in a different direction,
encouraging more people to come into work,
and designing what's called dialogic spaces,
and dialogic spaces are those spaces where people,
that are specifically designed for people to come in,
embodied space with one another, and create relationship,
and that can happen in a ton of different ways.
Some people are building these sort of stand-up huddle desks
for meetings, where you don't sit down,
you don't have enough room to have all your media out,
cafeterias where people have to stand in line
long enough to bump shoulders and engage in small talk,
but not long enough maybe for them to pull out their phones.
Agenda-less breakfast meetings, interactive company outings.
You know, at ASU in terms of our mentoring,
we actually have this activity that we call walk and talk,
and it's a space where there's no agenda,
but faculty and graduate students get together
and go on a walk, hike, and talk,
and so many creative ideas come out of that,
and also building of community and morale.
- Those are great ideas,
so I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here.
Are you saying that bosses,
organizations should force people
to have face-to-face conversations?
- (laughs) Right, like forced family fun time, right?
- Go have some fun together (laughs).
- Yes, but in some ways.
You know, like they're definitely encouraged,
but just designing for conversation
does not automatically equate with this interaction.
There's gonna be some people that still think,
"Oh, the real work is me sitting down at my desk
"and returning emails."
And Alex, that's just really imperative
that bosses, leaders embody themselves,
this sort of conversation.
For instance, one idea would be having an hour a week
where you put a sign on your door
that says free listening.
And you know, free listening,
if someone comes in and doesn't have to have an agenda,
and it's just listening in.
- I love it, that's so great.
You know, there's so much to be said
just for being there,
just for being available and listening,
and offering that connection,
and not having a task, a to-do list,
some action items at the end,
just to connect and build relationships.
Then it seems like once you build that relationship,
everything else gets easier anyway,
so you end up working together more effectively
in the long run anyway.
So let's say you're not the boss, you're not a leader.
You're not in charge.
What can you do personally,
what can we do, people watching, do personally
to make sure they have more real connection with people?
- Yeah, yeah you know, one of the things
is just realizing that putting down
our social media is hard.
It is difficult, because in many ways,
our social media's like a drug.
Every time we get that buzz or beep,
we get a quick dopamine hit, and it's almost like
the gambler who gets that dopamine hit, and you think like,
"Oh my gosh, this email I'm getting,
"it might finally be that email I was waiting for
"to tell me I got this big award."
- "This is the email that's gonna change everything."
- (laughing) Yeah, yeah, and usually it's another spam
or something like this, but that dopamine hit
is actually much different than the longer-lasting
serotonin lift we get from social connections,
but we've kinda gotta go over that hump of like,
"Oh, okay, this is gonna feel difficult
"in the short run, but it is actually better
"for my well-being."
So that's one thing, putting down our social media,
and then also just even if it's a few times a week
or just starting small,
choosing those video and phone conversations
rather than the mediated connections,
so if you have the choice between ordering pizza online
versus calling, if you don't have a lot of practice,
practice in low-risk situations.
I like to also talk to strangers, and talking to strangers
actually gives us the happiness lift.
One way I do this is in the elevator at school,
and you know, oftentimes people have their ears
with the earpods, and looking at their screen,
and we may talk about something very inane,
you know, like, "Are those Cheetos or Doritos
"on the floor of the elevator?"
However, we end up leaving
with a smile and kind of a connection,
and oftentimes people are just pleasantly surprised
that somebody would be interested in chatting with them.
- Yeah, it's sometimes those tiny moment,
it almost takes a little bit of bravery,
but once the door's open, people are usually quite happy
to have a nice conversation, even if it's brief,
and then yeah, you know, you have a few dozen
nice conversations in a day or two,
and now you're working in a nice place, right?
You're enjoying to work, and you feel like you're a part
of a community. - And being okay
with the awkwardness at first, too, right?
So there might be some awkwardness,
but that's the thing, it takes practice.
- Right, right, great.
Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for being here,
and just as a reminder for those of you who're watching,
you can check out Sarah's content on sarahjtracy.com,
she's, as I mentioned, a full professor
at Arizona State University.
She also has that website where you can find information
about her classes, things like syllabi.
She's got a blog and other resources,
as well as a link to her YouTube channel,
so Sarah, thank you so much for bein' on the channel.
It's been a real pleasure talkin' to you.
- Thank you, Alex.
- Thanks everybody, and God bless,
and we'll see you in the next video.