Hello, I'm Philippa Thomas.
Our top story on Impact today,
an exclusive BBC report
into China's prolific controversial
organ transplant system.
Campaigners alleged the organs used are
still taken from so-called prisoners of conscience,
but the head of China's transplant system denies these claims.
The head of China's transplant system
has denied claims that
organs are still being taken from executed prisoners.
The former deputy Health Minister Huang Jiefu says
there are plenty of organs
available from patients
who die in intensive care
as well as the rising number of
those registering for the country's
new organ donation system.
But campaigners say there is
a roaring trade in the organs of
so-called prisoners of conscience
to meet transplant targets
of up to to 100,000 operations every year.
Matthew Hill has this exclusive report.
She seems so used to seeing Korean visitors.
This undercover reporter captures a Korean patient
recovering from a liver transplant at a hospital
in Tianjin City, China.
The suspicion is
there's a roaring trade in organs
being harvested by the Chinese regime.
The nurse says
they did 7 Transplants on the previous day.
In other countries it can take years to get a suitable organ,
but here, it's only weeks.
So where are they coming from?
China admits it used to take organs
from executed prisoners
and claims
it stopped the practice in 2015.
But this campaigner believes
organs are still being harvested
from Prisoners of conscience.
Falun Gong is a spiritual movement based on meditation,
regarded as an illegal sect by China
In 2005 Annie was sent to this re-education camp in Beijing.
She claims healthy Falun Gong practitioners like her
were given invasive
and unwanted medical tests
"I was severely tortured mentally and physically,
but at the same time
they took all these Falun Gong practitioners to the nearest hospital
and have a regular body check,
include like a chest Xray, Liver test,
ultrasound and a blood test every 3 months."
Another Falun Gong detainee who was released last year
also believes organs are being procured from prisoners of conscience.
"So in the jail hospital for a few times
they took my hand inside a window
and then they would have a rubber band
wrapped around my arm and then took the needle over there
and then take the blood out.
And not just me. All the practitioners of Falun Gong.
They force you to renounce your beliefs.
So, if you don't do so, they will beat you up.
They choose places like your legs, your arms and your hip part,
but your organ part, they don't touch."
I've come to a gathering of
international transplant surgeons in Madrid
Transplant surgeon Zheng Shusen
is also a local leader of an organisation
set up to persecute Falun Gong followers.
I wanted to ask him about a controversial paper he'd written
which falsely claimed no prisoners' organs were transplanted.
"Did you, in the paper you misled people about the organs,
you said they were not from prisoners?
Professor Zheng, do you not want to answer my questions?
Clearly not.
The doctor in charge of China's fledgling organ donation scheme
was prepared to take a few questions.
He said
so far there were half a million volunteers.
But is that really enough
to deliver all the transplants
in such a huge country?
"Last year we had 15000 organ transplantation performed."
He claimed organs came from
some of the 6 million people
who die each year in intensive care.
They estimate it's about, at least about 100,000 transplant operations in China.
"That's nonsense.
I don't want to answer the questions because.."
Well how come, I rang up and was offered a liver very quickly…
from a hospital in China. Is that possible?
"I don't want to listen and answer the question
someone with political agendas.
Ok you understood that?"
China has yet to allow transplant surgeons from abroad
to inspect their hospitals unannounced.
Until there is greater transparency
the suspicion will remain that prisoners
detained for what they believe
are the new source for organs.
Matthew Hill BBC News.
Well to talk about this
I'm joined by Howard Zhang from BBC Chinese
and we'll also go to Matthew Hill
who is in our Bristol studio.
Matthew it's quite an investigation
and it is a fact that you were following up
that prisoners of conscience
were used for organ harvesting in the past
how strong do you feel is
the evidence that it is still happening?
Well the fact in the past it was prisoners per se
who were being used for executions.
This is a new allegation
at the moment about prisoners of conscience,
but yeah, essentially there have been,
anyone acting outside of state control
any minority group is considered a threat
by the Communist Party.
So Falun Gong, they were initially tolerated in the 1990s
then in 1999
when there were over 100 million members,
a huge number, that was seen as a threat.
They were describe an evil sect by the Communist party
and that's when the detentions, mass detentions began.
UN subsequently found credible reports of,
on inspections of these centres,
of torture going on.
And they are essentially, it's a peaceful belief
essentially is what the beliefs they hold.
On the other hand
we have a report last year from America,
the American Congress,
looking at growing concerns
about the treatment of the Uyghur community
the Muslim minority
in the autonomous region of China
where there are credible reports of 500,
500 (thousand) to a million people
being detained in these camps.
You have talked about a wide range of people
who you feel could be vulnerable
and from your reporting,
you seem to be telling us
there is no problem
or appears to be no problem
in setting up a transplant operation.
The supply, from your point of view,
looked suspiciously easy.
Yes, well it is time scale.
I mean was offered a liver for $100,000
at rather short notice.
Yes, it's the time scale.
And I think there are other concerns about,
for instance, you know,
having a ready supply of volunteers.
Yes, there are a half a million
according to the government
there, volunteers.
In the UK, for instance,
there are 25 million volunteers
in a tiny country, compared to China.
So the question is
where are the organs coming from?
There is a reticence to allow the body
not to be buried whole.
Confucian beliefs are that the body should be buried whole
so the government are going to have to overcome
that if they're to get more people to sign up to
this to this registry.
There are also reports, we've done interviews
with a former Doctor
Who describes going to execution ground
witnessing someone shot through the right hand side
so that they stayed alive,
their heart was still beating as he retrieved his liver etc.
Therefore the organs would have been
in a better state
to be transplanted.
And one of the points that you make
towards the end of your report
there is that doctors, transplant specialists from outside China,
have not had access to the system
that seems to be running at such a pace.
That's The Transplantation Society.
They have had limited access on an announced basis
to a small number of hospitals,
but they've haven't been allowed into the military hospitals
that are at the centre of a lot of these allegations.
They point out
the China has signed up to
an International World Health Assembly Protocol,
which is for greater transparency,
but many campaigners believe that
transparency does not exist in terms of,
for instance
the traceability of the organs.
They're also
concerned about a recent development
on the Uyghur community
age between 12 and 65
who are having biometric tests done.
That's blood, DNA samples done.
The Chinese say that is to combat the threat of terrorism
whereas these campaigners believe that
there's a more sinister motive.
Can we say
is this definitely happening
on prisoners of conscience?
I don't think we can say it is definitely happening,
but there again,
I don't think we can say it's definitely not happening.
Matthew, thank you very much.
With me now Howard Zhang,
editor from the BBC's Chinese service
and I know that you have been talking about this.
It is a big talking point.
What do you make of, of what we are uncovering here?
Well over the past many, many years
while we are covering this topic
there's all sorts of substantial evidence coming up
and we also have people from both sides
giving their takes on it.
I think what Matthew just said touched on
two very important points.
One is the role money plays in all of this
because China now, you know, whatever outside people call it
a communist country or
a state capitalist country
essentially money is the number one law.
You know if you can make a profit
it drives,
it provides the motive for lots of things to happen
whether you're an official, locally a certain level,
or your doctor or you're a police
if there is incentive,
monetary incentive,
lots of things, lot of rules can be bent
and that's one thing I do think, you know,
As I said we don't have, at least for from my side,
become,
besides witnesses and things,
I don't have Direct evidence in front of me
that can categorically say
ok this way, that way.
But I do believe, and from all the circumstantial evidence,
there is some type of organ trade going on
but to what degree,
whether they involve prisoners of conscience,
at this moment
we don't know for sure.
But we do know that the organ transplant system
in China is thriving.
Hospitals are busy.
and the culture of not wanting the body
to be divided into different parts
is very deeply ingrained
in Chinese culture,
that is true as well.
But one point I do want to add
you know
the former health minister Huang Jiefu
and he actually represents a group of people
who within the Chinese system
were trying to push for more transparency,
more sort of a law and regulation around the issue.
He's, you know,
one of the few people who is still willing to come out,
even answer or not answer question
to deal with the media in the west
and the most of the other
officials in China probably keep a very very low profile
and long silence over any of these topics.
They'll stay away.
I think that's a really important point to make
and I'm just wondering,
do you think it's fair to say
there seems to be, perhaps it's a system
that's in transition or in process
it's moving from one source of supplies
and looking for others.
I think it's very difficult to prove
at this moment
that there's a central government drive
for a for-profit type of
organ harvesting law.
Because once they stopped 2015
when they pushed out this new law saying
no more kind of using prisoners,
it's difficult to say there's
still that law in play.
But whether they've transitioned to a more open and transparent,
obviously not yet
and in between there's so many layers of different government interests
of local and central government
as well as the police system.
It's also very concentrated in terms of power
and lacking in transparency.
So all these. And the drive from hospitals
from local hospital to make money
because they have to feed their doctors and nurses
and all these elements start to combine into
a really complex kind of a picture for us.
We have to leave it there
but Howard and Matthew,
thank you both very much,
it's important to say what we've found
and what we're still investigating.
Thank you.
Please visit FalunInfo.net for more information on the ongoing persecution of Falun Gong by the Chinese government.
Since 1999, the Falun Dafa Information Center (FalunInfo) has been reporting on atrocities committed against the Falun Gong meditation practice such as forced organ harvesting.