THANK YOU TO RICHARD ENGEL FOR THAT. EXCELLENT REPORT. JOINING US NOW IS RACHEL
THAT. EXCELLENT REPORT. JOINING US NOW IS RACHEL DENVER IS THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR
JOINING US NOW IS RACHEL DENVER IS THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE EUROPE AND CENTRAL ASIA
DENVER IS THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE EUROPE AND CENTRAL ASIA DIVISION OF HUMAN RIGHTS,
OF THE EUROPE AND CENTRAL ASIA DIVISION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, WATCH AND RACHEL. IT WAS
DIVISION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, WATCH AND RACHEL. IT WAS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT
WATCH AND RACHEL. IT WAS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO WATCH. DO YOU THINK
INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO WATCH. DO YOU THINK PUTIN IS INTENTIONALLY
TO WATCH. DO YOU THINK PUTIN IS INTENTIONALLY TARGETING CIVILIANS? AND IF
PUTIN IS INTENTIONALLY TARGETING CIVILIANS? AND IF SO, WHY
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON THE PROGRAM. HUMAN RIGHTS. WATCH HAS BEEN
ME ON THE PROGRAM. HUMAN RIGHTS. WATCH HAS BEEN DOCUMENTING
HUMAN RIGHTS. WATCH HAS BEEN DOCUMENTING THE INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING AND
DOCUMENTING THE INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING AND SHELLING
THE INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING AND SHELLING OF CIVILIAN AREAS IN THE
SHELLING OF CIVILIAN AREAS IN THE WAR, IN UKRAINE,
OF CIVILIAN AREAS IN THE WAR, IN UKRAINE, SINCE THE WAR BEGAN,
WAR, IN UKRAINE, SINCE THE WAR BEGAN, BASICALLY, AND WE‘VE BEEN
SINCE THE WAR BEGAN, BASICALLY, AND WE‘VE BEEN DOING WE‘VE HAVE
BASICALLY, AND WE‘VE BEEN DOING WE‘VE HAVE DOCUMENTATION
DOING WE‘VE HAVE DOCUMENTATION IN
DOCUMENTATION IN CITIES OF
IN CITIES OF HOTKEYS.
CITIES OF HOTKEYS. IMPORTED ARE TO RECEIVE
HOTKEYS. IMPORTED ARE TO RECEIVE MARIUPOL
IMPORTED ARE TO RECEIVE MARIUPOL EUROPEAN WEEK, ALIVE IS
MARIUPOL EUROPEAN WEEK, ALIVE IS TWO PLACES AND WHAT WE FOUND
EUROPEAN WEEK, ALIVE IS TWO PLACES AND WHAT WE FOUND IS
TWO PLACES AND WHAT WE FOUND IS A DISTINCT PATTERN OF
IS A DISTINCT PATTERN OF INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING AND
A DISTINCT PATTERN OF INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING AND SHELLING OF
INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING AND SHELLING OF YOU KNOW, OF CIVILIAN AREAS.
SHELLING OF YOU KNOW, OF CIVILIAN AREAS. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY
YOU KNOW, OF CIVILIAN AREAS. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE
REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE MANY ON MILITARY TARGETS THERE
WERE MANY ON MILITARY TARGETS THERE AND PARTICULARLY FOR EXAMPLE
MANY ON MILITARY TARGETS THERE AND PARTICULARLY FOR EXAMPLE IN
AND PARTICULARLY FOR EXAMPLE IN HOTKEYS, YOU KNOW, WE‘RE
IN HOTKEYS, YOU KNOW, WE‘RE FINDING THAT THE MILITARY
HOTKEYS, YOU KNOW, WE‘RE FINDING THAT THE MILITARY FORCES JUST SHOW
FINDING THAT THE MILITARY FORCES JUST SHOW REALLY
FORCES JUST SHOW REALLY DISREGARD FOR CIVILIANS.
REALLY DISREGARD FOR CIVILIANS. ALL THROUGH
DISREGARD FOR CIVILIANS. ALL THROUGH THROUGH
ALL THROUGH THROUGH INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING, AND
THROUGH INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING, AND SHELLING.
INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING, AND SHELLING. SO
SHELLING. SO LOOK THE
SO LOOK THE OH, TERRY MIGHT THINK THEY CAN
LOOK THE OH, TERRY MIGHT THINK THEY CAN DISREGARD THE LAWS OF WAR
OH, TERRY MIGHT THINK THEY CAN DISREGARD THE LAWS OF WAR IN THE CAMP AND THE WAR
DISREGARD THE LAWS OF WAR IN THE CAMP AND THE WAR IN UKRAINE, BUT EVENTUALLY
IN THE CAMP AND THE WAR IN UKRAINE, BUT EVENTUALLY THE THERE‘S GOING THERE NEEDS
IN UKRAINE, BUT EVENTUALLY THE THERE‘S GOING THERE NEEDS TO BE JUSTICE.
THE THERE‘S GOING THERE NEEDS TO BE JUSTICE. IN A LOT OF WAYS. I FEEL LIKE
TO BE JUSTICE. IN A LOT OF WAYS. I FEEL LIKE WHAT WE‘RE SEEING IS
IN A LOT OF WAYS. I FEEL LIKE WHAT WE‘RE SEEING IS BOTH
WHAT WE‘RE SEEING IS BOTH THE
BOTH THE EMPTYING OUT OF UKRAINE,
THE EMPTYING OUT OF UKRAINE, RIGHT? FORCING PEOPLE TO FLEE
EMPTYING OUT OF UKRAINE, RIGHT? FORCING PEOPLE TO FLEE TO SEEK REFUGE AND YOU‘VE HAD
RIGHT? FORCING PEOPLE TO FLEE TO SEEK REFUGE AND YOU‘VE HAD MILLIONS OF REFUGEES.
TO SEEK REFUGE AND YOU‘VE HAD MILLIONS OF REFUGEES. SEEKING SHELTER IN
MILLIONS OF REFUGEES. SEEKING SHELTER IN OTHER OTHER COUNTRIES
SEEKING SHELTER IN OTHER OTHER COUNTRIES OUTSIDE OF THE
OTHER OTHER COUNTRIES OUTSIDE OF THE BORDERS OF YOU.
OUTSIDE OF THE BORDERS OF YOU. RAIN, BUT I ALSO FEEL
BORDERS OF YOU. RAIN, BUT I ALSO FEEL LIKE,
RAIN, BUT I ALSO FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU‘RE
LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU‘RE TARGETING A THEATER WHERE THEY
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU‘RE TARGETING A THEATER WHERE THEY HAVE WRITTEN CHILDREN
TARGETING A THEATER WHERE THEY HAVE WRITTEN CHILDREN IN RUSSIAN ON PURPOSE.
HAVE WRITTEN CHILDREN IN RUSSIAN ON PURPOSE. AND IT‘S VISIBLE ON BOTH
IN RUSSIAN ON PURPOSE. AND IT‘S VISIBLE ON BOTH SIDES, THAT FEELS
AND IT‘S VISIBLE ON BOTH SIDES, THAT FEELS LIKE AN ESCALATION
SIDES, THAT FEELS LIKE AN ESCALATION FOR LACK OF A BETTER TURN, OR
LIKE AN ESCALATION FOR LACK OF A BETTER TURN, OR HE UP THE ANTE IN A WAY
FOR LACK OF A BETTER TURN, OR HE UP THE ANTE IN A WAY THAT HE HADN‘T PREVIOUSLY WE
HE UP THE ANTE IN A WAY THAT HE HADN‘T PREVIOUSLY WE WERE TALKING WITH, SHOUT OUT
THAT HE HADN‘T PREVIOUSLY WE WERE TALKING WITH, SHOUT OUT TO CALLEBAUT THE LAST 24
WERE TALKING WITH, SHOUT OUT TO CALLEBAUT THE LAST 24 HOURS,
TO CALLEBAUT THE LAST 24 HOURS, YOU‘VE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS
HOURS, YOU‘VE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS FROM THE BEGINNING, AS YOU
YOU‘VE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS FROM THE BEGINNING, AS YOU SAID, DO YOU SEE
FROM THE BEGINNING, AS YOU SAID, DO YOU SEE AND
SAID, DO YOU SEE AND UPTICK
AND UPTICK IN THE BRUTALITY IN THE
UPTICK IN THE BRUTALITY IN THE LAST 24 HOURS. IN THE SAME WAY
IN THE BRUTALITY IN THE LAST 24 HOURS. IN THE SAME WAY CAL REPORTED
LAST 24 HOURS. IN THE SAME WAY CAL REPORTED THERE. I THINK THAT WE HAVE
CAL REPORTED THERE. I THINK THAT WE HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK IN
THERE. I THINK THAT WE HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK IN THE
SEEN AN UPTICK IN THE BARBARITY OF SOME OF THESE
THE BARBARITY OF SOME OF THESE ATTACKS. NOT JUST IN THE PAST
BARBARITY OF SOME OF THESE ATTACKS. NOT JUST IN THE PAST 24 HOURS,
ATTACKS. NOT JUST IN THE PAST 24 HOURS, BUT REALLY,
24 HOURS, BUT REALLY, IN THE PAST WEEK, OR TWO
BUT REALLY, IN THE PAST WEEK, OR TWO WEEKS, I THINK EARLY IN THE,
IN THE PAST WEEK, OR TWO WEEKS, I THINK EARLY IN THE, IN THE WAR. WE SAW THAT
WEEKS, I THINK EARLY IN THE, IN THE WAR. WE SAW THAT THEY WERE MOSTLY TRYING TO
IN THE WAR. WE SAW THAT THEY WERE MOSTLY TRYING TO GET,
THEY WERE MOSTLY TRYING TO GET, YOU KNOW,
GET, YOU KNOW, MILITARY
YOU KNOW, MILITARY TARGETS ARE FIELDS AND
MILITARY TARGETS ARE FIELDS AND LIKE BUT DEFINITELY IN THE
TARGETS ARE FIELDS AND LIKE BUT DEFINITELY IN THE PAST 10 DAYS, WE HAVE SEEN
LIKE BUT DEFINITELY IN THE PAST 10 DAYS, WE HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK.
PAST 10 DAYS, WE HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK. AND THE INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS
AN UPTICK. AND THE INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS THAT HIT
AND THE INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS THAT HIT THAT HIT APARTMENT BUILDINGS
THAT HIT THAT HIT APARTMENT BUILDINGS THAT HIT
THAT HIT APARTMENT BUILDINGS THAT HIT HOSPITALS,
THAT HIT HOSPITALS, THAT HIT SCHOOLS, LOTS AND
HOSPITALS, THAT HIT SCHOOLS, LOTS AND LOTS OF SCHOOLS. WE HAVE
THAT HIT SCHOOLS, LOTS AND LOTS OF SCHOOLS. WE HAVE DEFINITELY SEEN
LOTS OF SCHOOLS. WE HAVE DEFINITELY SEEN THAT IN
DEFINITELY SEEN THAT IN INTENSIFY. WE‘VE BEEN
THAT IN INTENSIFY. WE‘VE BEEN DOCUMENTING
INTENSIFY. WE‘VE BEEN DOCUMENTING INSTANCES WHEN PEOPLE HAVE
DOCUMENTING INSTANCES WHEN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED
INSTANCES WHEN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED WHEN THEY‘RE IN LINE AT
BEEN KILLED WHEN THEY‘RE IN LINE AT SUPERMARKETS
WHEN THEY‘RE IN LINE AT SUPERMARKETS WHEN THEY ARE.
SUPERMARKETS WHEN THEY ARE. IN LINE AT A WATER STATION. IN
WHEN THEY ARE. IN LINE AT A WATER STATION. IN ONE INSTANCE THAT WE
IN LINE AT A WATER STATION. IN ONE INSTANCE THAT WE DOCUMENTED. WE‘VE SEEN
ONE INSTANCE THAT WE DOCUMENTED. WE‘VE SEEN A BOMB
DOCUMENTED. WE‘VE SEEN A BOMB IN CHERNIHIV THAT
A BOMB IN CHERNIHIV THAT SEVERAL BOMBS
IN CHERNIHIV THAT SEVERAL BOMBS IN A TOTALLY
SEVERAL BOMBS IN A TOTALLY A CIVILIAN AREA THAT
IN A TOTALLY A CIVILIAN AREA THAT KILLED AS MANY AS FORTY SEVEN
A CIVILIAN AREA THAT KILLED AS MANY AS FORTY SEVEN PEOPLE
KILLED AS MANY AS FORTY SEVEN PEOPLE IN IT JUST IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.
PEOPLE IN IT JUST IN BROAD DAYLIGHT. SO,
IN IT JUST IN BROAD DAYLIGHT. SO, YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THESE
SO, YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THESE ATTACKS ARE DELIBERATE, YOU
YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THESE ATTACKS ARE DELIBERATE, YOU KNOW, IT‘S THAT‘S SOMETHING
ATTACKS ARE DELIBERATE, YOU KNOW, IT‘S THAT‘S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE STUDIED
KNOW, IT‘S THAT‘S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE STUDIED PRETTY, PRETTY CAREFULLY.
THAT NEEDS TO BE STUDIED PRETTY, PRETTY CAREFULLY. BUT TO A CERTAIN EXTENT,
PRETTY, PRETTY CAREFULLY. BUT TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT
BUT TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT DELIBERATE, EVEN IF THEY
EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT DELIBERATE, EVEN IF THEY IF THERE WAS SOME
DELIBERATE, EVEN IF THEY IF THERE WAS SOME MILITARY
IF THERE WAS SOME MILITARY OBJECT, A MILITARY TARGET IN
MILITARY OBJECT, A MILITARY TARGET IN THE VICINITY
OBJECT, A MILITARY TARGET IN THE VICINITY AT A CERTAIN POINT. IT REALLY
THE VICINITY AT A CERTAIN POINT. IT REALLY DOESN‘T MATTER WHEN WHEN
AT A CERTAIN POINT. IT REALLY DOESN‘T MATTER WHEN WHEN THESE ATTACKS ARE TAKING OUT.
DOESN‘T MATTER WHEN WHEN THESE ATTACKS ARE TAKING OUT. CIVILIAN
THESE ATTACKS ARE TAKING OUT. CIVILIAN CIVILIANS,
CIVILIAN CIVILIANS, CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE AND
CIVILIANS, CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE AND TAKING CIVILIAN LIVES ON THE
CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE AND TAKING CIVILIAN LIVES ON THE SCALE THAT WE‘RE TAKING TODAY.
TAKING CIVILIAN LIVES ON THE SCALE THAT WE‘RE TAKING TODAY. THAT CAN RISE TO THE LEVEL
SCALE THAT WE‘RE TAKING TODAY. THAT CAN RISE TO THE LEVEL OF
THAT CAN RISE TO THE LEVEL OF A WAR CRIME.
OF A WAR CRIME. CAN YOU DEFINE A WAR CRIME FOR
A WAR CRIME. CAN YOU DEFINE A WAR CRIME FOR US FOR THOSE FOLKS AT HOME?
CAN YOU DEFINE A WAR CRIME FOR US FOR THOSE FOLKS AT HOME? THAT MAY NOT ACTUALLY KNOW?
US FOR THOSE FOLKS AT HOME? THAT MAY NOT ACTUALLY KNOW? KNOW WHAT THE DEFINITION IS,
THAT MAY NOT ACTUALLY KNOW? KNOW WHAT THE DEFINITION IS, BECAUSE THIS IS ACTUALLY
KNOW WHAT THE DEFINITION IS, BECAUSE THIS IS ACTUALLY IMPORTANT.
BECAUSE THIS IS ACTUALLY IMPORTANT. IT‘S NOT SIMPLY,
IMPORTANT. IT‘S NOT SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, A CRIME.
IT‘S NOT SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, A CRIME. IT HAS A DEFINITION, HELP US
YOU KNOW, A CRIME. IT HAS A DEFINITION, HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS.
IT HAS A DEFINITION, HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS. SO THE
UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS. SO THE TO THIS GENEVA CONVENTIONS
SO THE TO THIS GENEVA CONVENTIONS THAT SET OUT THE RULES OF
TO THIS GENEVA CONVENTIONS THAT SET OUT THE RULES OF ARMS, THE LAWS OF ARMED
THAT SET OUT THE RULES OF ARMS, THE LAWS OF ARMED CONFLICT
ARMS, THE LAWS OF ARMED CONFLICT AND THERE ARE VIOLATIONS OF
CONFLICT AND THERE ARE VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
AND THERE ARE VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW VIOLATION OF THE GENEVA
INTERNATIONAL LAW VIOLATION OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION AND NOT ALL
VIOLATION OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION AND NOT ALL VIOLATIONS.
CONVENTION AND NOT ALL VIOLATIONS. REACH THE LEVEL OF A
VIOLATIONS. REACH THE LEVEL OF A WAR CRIME.
REACH THE LEVEL OF A WAR CRIME. FOR SOMETHING TO REACH
WAR CRIME. FOR SOMETHING TO REACH THE LEVEL
FOR SOMETHING TO REACH THE LEVEL WHERE CRIME EITHER, THEY‘RE
THE LEVEL WHERE CRIME EITHER, THEY‘RE EITHER HAS TO
WHERE CRIME EITHER, THEY‘RE EITHER HAS TO YOU, EITHER HAVE TO SHOW
EITHER HAS TO YOU, EITHER HAVE TO SHOW SOMETHING
YOU, EITHER HAVE TO SHOW SOMETHING DELIBERATE, OR YOU HAVE TO
SOMETHING DELIBERATE, OR YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT THE
DELIBERATE, OR YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT THE VIOLATIONS ARE TAKING PLACE
SHOW THAT THE VIOLATIONS ARE TAKING PLACE WITH
VIOLATIONS ARE TAKING PLACE WITH WITH JUST TOTAL
WITH WITH JUST TOTAL RECKLESSNESS THAT THERE‘S A
WITH JUST TOTAL RECKLESSNESS THAT THERE‘S A RECKLESS DISREGARD
RECKLESSNESS THAT THERE‘S A RECKLESS DISREGARD FOR.
RECKLESS DISREGARD FOR. IN LIFE, LIKE
FOR. IN LIFE, LIKE ANY WARRING PARTY, ANY ANY
IN LIFE, LIKE ANY WARRING PARTY, ANY ANY SIDE TO AN ARMED CONFLICT HAS
ANY WARRING PARTY, ANY ANY SIDE TO AN ARMED CONFLICT HAS AN OBLIGATION
SIDE TO AN ARMED CONFLICT HAS AN OBLIGATION JUST TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN
AN OBLIGATION JUST TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN CIVILIAN
JUST TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN CIVILIAN CIVILIANS AND
CIVILIAN CIVILIANS AND COMBATANTS
CIVILIANS AND COMBATANTS AND WHEN YOU DON‘T SHOW THAT
COMBATANTS AND WHEN YOU DON‘T SHOW THAT WHEN YOU DON‘T MAKE THAT
AND WHEN YOU DON‘T SHOW THAT WHEN YOU DON‘T MAKE THAT PROTECTION
WHEN YOU DON‘T MAKE THAT PROTECTION PROTECTION, OF CIVILIANS
PROTECTION PROTECTION, OF CIVILIANS FOREMOST, WHEN YOU DON‘T SHOW
PROTECTION, OF CIVILIANS FOREMOST, WHEN YOU DON‘T SHOW THAT DISTINCTION, AND YOU
FOREMOST, WHEN YOU DON‘T SHOW THAT DISTINCTION, AND YOU DO THAT,
THAT DISTINCTION, AND YOU DO THAT, REPEATEDLY,
DO THAT, REPEATEDLY, IT REALLY DOESN‘T MATTER
REPEATEDLY, IT REALLY DOESN‘T MATTER WHETHER IT‘S DELIBERATE
IT REALLY DOESN‘T MATTER WHETHER IT‘S DELIBERATE IT, RIGHT? IT CAN RISE TO THE
WHETHER IT‘S DELIBERATE IT, RIGHT? IT CAN RISE TO THE LEVEL OF A WAR CRIME, AND
IT, RIGHT? IT CAN RISE TO THE LEVEL OF A WAR CRIME, AND THIS IS WHAT IS THIS?
LEVEL OF A WAR CRIME, AND THIS IS WHAT IS THIS? THIS KIND OF
THIS IS WHAT IS THIS? THIS KIND OF RECKLESS.
THIS KIND OF RECKLESS. DISREGARD FOR CIVILIANS AND
RECKLESS. DISREGARD FOR CIVILIANS AND CIVILIAN LIVES. THIS IS WHAT‘S
DISREGARD FOR CIVILIANS AND CIVILIAN LIVES. THIS IS WHAT‘S MAKING,
CIVILIAN LIVES. THIS IS WHAT‘S MAKING, THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING LIFE.
MAKING, THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING LIFE. THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING.
THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING LIFE. THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING. OR BIG CITIES INTO,
THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING. OR BIG CITIES INTO, YOU KNOW, URBAN LANDSCAPES
OR BIG CITIES INTO, YOU KNOW, URBAN LANDSCAPES IS DEVASTATION. THIS IS WHAT‘S
YOU KNOW, URBAN LANDSCAPES IS DEVASTATION. THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING
IS DEVASTATION. THIS IS WHAT‘S TURNING THAT SAYS, THIS IS WHAT MAKING
TURNING THAT SAYS, THIS IS WHAT MAKING IS CAUSING SUCH DIRE
THAT SAYS, THIS IS WHAT MAKING IS CAUSING SUCH DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES FOR CIVILIANS,
IS CAUSING SUCH DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES FOR CIVILIANS, WHO MY COLLEAGUES WHO ARE ON
CIRCUMSTANCES FOR CIVILIANS, WHO MY COLLEAGUES WHO ARE ON THE GROUND IN,
WHO MY COLLEAGUES WHO ARE ON THE GROUND IN, IS THAT PIEROGI INTERVIEWING
THE GROUND IN, IS THAT PIEROGI INTERVIEWING PEOPLE FROM
IS THAT PIEROGI INTERVIEWING PEOPLE FROM MARIO, PEOPLE WHO JUST
PEOPLE FROM MARIO, PEOPLE WHO JUST WHO JUST ESCAPED TOLD US THAT
MARIO, PEOPLE WHO JUST WHO JUST ESCAPED TOLD US THAT THEY WERE MAKING EVERY EFFORT
WHO JUST ESCAPED TOLD US THAT THEY WERE MAKING EVERY EFFORT THEY WERE TRYING SO HARD TO
THEY WERE MAKING EVERY EFFORT THEY WERE TRYING SO HARD TO GET OUT OF MARIUPOL AND
THEY WERE TRYING SO HARD TO GET OUT OF MARIUPOL AND THEY
GET OUT OF MARIUPOL AND THEY HAD THIS
THEY HAD THIS YOU KNOW, THEY HAD THIS
HAD THIS YOU KNOW, THEY HAD THIS IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE OF EITHER
YOU KNOW, THEY HAD THIS IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE OF EITHER STAYING IN THEIR BASEMENTS AND
IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE OF EITHER STAYING IN THEIR BASEMENTS AND DYING THERE OR, OR DYING
STAYING IN THEIR BASEMENTS AND DYING THERE OR, OR DYING ON THE ROAD BECAUSE OF THE
DYING THERE OR, OR DYING ON THE ROAD BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE
ON THE ROAD BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE LACK OF
LACK OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE LACK OF CONDITIONS FOR THEM TO FLEE
LACK OF CONDITIONS FOR THEM TO FLEE AND SAFETY,
CONDITIONS FOR THEM TO FLEE AND SAFETY, THAT SHOULDN‘T HAPPEN.
AND SAFETY, THAT SHOULDN‘T HAPPEN. AND NOW THERE ARE THREE. THERE
THAT SHOULDN‘T HAPPEN. AND NOW THERE ARE THREE. THERE ARE THREE MILLION MORE THAN 3
AND NOW THERE ARE THREE. THERE ARE THREE MILLION MORE THAN 3 MILLION PEOPLE, WHO HAVE HAD
ARE THREE MILLION MORE THAN 3 MILLION PEOPLE, WHO HAVE HAD TO, WHO HAVE FLED UKRAINE, FOR
MILLION PEOPLE, WHO HAVE HAD TO, WHO HAVE FLED UKRAINE, FOR BORDERING EU COUNTRIES.
TO, WHO HAVE FLED UKRAINE, FOR BORDERING EU COUNTRIES. THREE MILLION PEOPLE AND
BORDERING EU COUNTRIES. THREE MILLION PEOPLE AND ALMOST
THREE MILLION PEOPLE AND ALMOST ALMOST
ALMOST ALMOST 800 CIVILIANS
ALMOST 800 CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED SO FAR
800 CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED SO FAR 780, ACCORDING TO THE UN IN
HAVE BEEN KILLED SO FAR 780, ACCORDING TO THE UN IN JUST THREE WEEKS.
780, ACCORDING TO THE UN IN JUST THREE WEEKS. IT DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT
JUST THREE WEEKS. IT DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT HAPPEN AND WITH REGARDS TO
IT DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT HAPPEN AND WITH REGARDS TO THOSE CIVILIANS THAT ARE
HAPPEN AND WITH REGARDS TO THOSE CIVILIANS THAT ARE POURING INTO OTHER EUROPEAN
THOSE CIVILIANS THAT ARE POURING INTO OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. DO YOU THINK
POURING INTO OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. DO YOU THINK FROM YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT
COUNTRIES. DO YOU THINK FROM YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ABOUT PUTIN AND
FROM YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ABOUT PUTIN AND PERHAPS SOME OF HIS
ABOUT PUTIN AND PERHAPS SOME OF HIS CALCULATIONS
PERHAPS SOME OF HIS CALCULATIONS HERE? DO YOU THINK IT‘S A PLUS
CALCULATIONS HERE? DO YOU THINK IT‘S A PLUS FOR HIM FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW
HERE? DO YOU THINK IT‘S A PLUS FOR HIM FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW THAT
FOR HIM FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW THAT THIS REFUGEE FLOW OF REFUGEES?
THAT THIS REFUGEE FLOW OF REFUGEES? REFUGEES THAT
THIS REFUGEE FLOW OF REFUGEES? REFUGEES THAT KEEPS PICKING
REFUGEES THAT KEEPS PICKING UP OVER THE COURSE OF THIS
KEEPS PICKING UP OVER THE COURSE OF THIS WAR. DO YOU THINK THAT WILL
UP OVER THE COURSE OF THIS WAR. DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAVE A DESTABILIZING EFFECT
WAR. DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAVE A DESTABILIZING EFFECT ON EUROPE AS A
HAVE A DESTABILIZING EFFECT ON EUROPE AS A WHOLE AND IS THAT A BENEFIT TO
ON EUROPE AS A WHOLE AND IS THAT A BENEFIT TO HIM?
WHOLE AND IS THAT A BENEFIT TO HIM? I THINK THAT THAT WAS THE
HIM? I THINK THAT THAT WAS THE NARRATIVE
I THINK THAT THAT WAS THE NARRATIVE BACK A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO
NARRATIVE BACK A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO WITH THE REFUGEE CRISIS ON
BACK A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO WITH THE REFUGEE CRISIS ON THE BILL, ON THE
WITH THE REFUGEE CRISIS ON THE BILL, ON THE BILL RUSSIAN BORDER WITH
THE BILL, ON THE BILL RUSSIAN BORDER WITH BELARUS HAS BORDERS WITH WITH
BILL RUSSIAN BORDER WITH BELARUS HAS BORDERS WITH WITH POLES. AND LITHUANIANS THAT I
BELARUS HAS BORDERS WITH WITH POLES. AND LITHUANIANS THAT I THINK THAT DEFINITELY WAS A
POLES. AND LITHUANIANS THAT I THINK THAT DEFINITELY WAS A CALCULATED. THE CALCULATION
THINK THAT DEFINITELY WAS A CALCULATED. THE CALCULATION THAT
CALCULATED. THE CALCULATION THAT LUKASHENKO THE PRESIDENT OF
THAT LUKASHENKO THE PRESIDENT OF BELARUS AND POSSIBLY ALSO
LUKASHENKO THE PRESIDENT OF BELARUS AND POSSIBLY ALSO PUTIN WILL, YOU KNOW, WE‘RE
BELARUS AND POSSIBLY ALSO PUTIN WILL, YOU KNOW, WE‘RE BOTH MAKING,
PUTIN WILL, YOU KNOW, WE‘RE BOTH MAKING, I DON‘T KNOW THAT THAT
BOTH MAKING, I DON‘T KNOW THAT THAT THIS NECESSARILY ENTERS THE
I DON‘T KNOW THAT THAT THIS NECESSARILY ENTERS THE CALCULATION. NOW, HONESTLY, I
THIS NECESSARILY ENTERS THE CALCULATION. NOW, HONESTLY, I CAN‘T GET INSIDE PUTIN‘S HEAD,
CALCULATION. NOW, HONESTLY, I CAN‘T GET INSIDE PUTIN‘S HEAD, BUT HONESTLY, I THINK THAT
CAN‘T GET INSIDE PUTIN‘S HEAD, BUT HONESTLY, I THINK THAT THAT
BUT HONESTLY, I THINK THAT THAT HIS GOALS IN
THAT HIS GOALS IN CRUSHING UKRAINE,
HIS GOALS IN CRUSHING UKRAINE, I THINK ARE JUST SEPARATE FROM
CRUSHING UKRAINE, I THINK ARE JUST SEPARATE FROM THE
I THINK ARE JUST SEPARATE FROM THE ANY, ANY IMPUTED DESIRE
THE ANY, ANY IMPUTED DESIRE TO UNLEASH. A REFUGEE CRISIS
ANY, ANY IMPUTED DESIRE TO UNLEASH. A REFUGEE CRISIS IN EUROPE.
TO UNLEASH. A REFUGEE CRISIS IN EUROPE. I THINK THAT, I THINK THAT
IN EUROPE. I THINK THAT, I THINK THAT THERE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
I THINK THAT, I THINK THAT THERE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FORCES AND PRIORITIES AND
THERE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FORCES AND PRIORITIES AND LIKE
FORCES AND PRIORITIES AND LIKE POLITICAL IMPERATIVES THAT
LIKE POLITICAL IMPERATIVES THAT WORK FOR PUTIN IN THIS
POLITICAL IMPERATIVES THAT WORK FOR PUTIN IN THIS CONTEXT.
WORK FOR PUTIN IN THIS CONTEXT. IT‘S REALLY HELPFUL AND
CONTEXT. IT‘S REALLY HELPFUL AND UNDERSTANDING
IT‘S REALLY HELPFUL AND UNDERSTANDING SOME OF THIS REALLY
UNDERSTANDING SOME OF THIS REALLY COMPLICATED AND
SOME OF THIS REALLY COMPLICATED AND REAL-TIME ONGOING SITUATION.
COMPLICATED AND REAL-TIME ONGOING SITUATION. RACHEL DENVER. THANK YOU SO
REAL-TIME ONGOING SITUATION. RACHEL DENVER. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE TODAY, AND
RACHEL DENVER. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE TODAY, AND PLEASE STAY