I find myself following the advice that it is better to ask for
forgiveness than ask for permission.
The end result.
I am often apologizing.
Today, we will explore apologies, forgiveness and happiness.
I'm Matt Abraham and
I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
I am excited and really interested to speak with Dr. Fred Luskin, who is
the director of the Stanford Forgiveness Project and the author of two books.
Forgive for good, A Proven Prescription for Health and Happiness and
Stress Free for Good.
10 proven life skills for health and happiness.
Welcome to the podcast Fred, thanks for joining me.
>> Thanks for having me on.
>> Let's get started.
From your perspective, why is forgiving important?
And can you share your view on the forgiving process and the steps involved?
>> Desmond Tutu says without forgiveness, there is no future.
So implying that if you don't let go of the past to release your bitterness,
you living in the past, that is really dangerous for relationships.
And in terms of I know what you teach is communication.
You don't want to be just negotiating and relitigating the past.
You want to have communication now, about what's going on now.
We through the Forgiveness Project have developed a nine step
process to forgiveness and that's the essence of our work.
It goes from awarenesses of what forgiveness is and isn't,
to some practices.
The end result being you end up with an entirely different story,
that you tell yourself about what happened.
>> Fascinating, how does apologizing fit into this forgiving process and
what are the steps that are involved in apologizing?
I find myself doing it quite often.
>> Well in particular if you don't want to ask for permission.
>> Yes. >> You're going to have a good number of
apologies.
Apology is one of the few things that research shows actually facilitates
forgiveness and is not that many.
A sincere apology is a facilitator.
A sincere apology is what's important and
from what I understand most apologies are not that useful
because they end up saying, I'm sorry that you feel bad.
Or I'm sorry that you're upset.
A sincere apology says I did wrong.
My wrong lead to your upset.
I own both my own behavior and your response.
I'm sorry about that.
And if I can, I will make amends.
So that's the fullness of apology.
We add to that in terms of the forgiveness peace is not only
would it be nice to make amends, but
we good if I can undergo whatever processes are needed.
So I'm less likely to do it again.
So if I do something because I have a bad habit, do something to work on that habit.
If I'm a drunk, stop drinking.
If I have a bad temper, acknowledge and get some help.
But the apology is that I see your hurt,
I own my own behavior that caused that I'm sorry and
is there anything I can do to make it better.
>> So it starts with taking responsibility and includes empathy.
>> And that's why it's so hard that many people struggle to admit their flaws and
own the fact that behavior of theirs caused other people's suffering.
Or their own sufferings such as, I did something really stupid and
blew off the test or something, yes.
>> Interesting, so those people who listen into the podcast know I'm a huge fan of
structure and how you can structure your communication.
And it sounds like a recommendation you have as
you start by acknowledging your responsibility and what you did.
And then move to talk about how what you did impacted to the other or others,
and from there can talk about how you can go about making amends and.
>> That would be a good thing.
I'm going to say even more deeply though, I would advocate for
the value of mindfulness.
Or even a Buddhist base awareness practice that it's really good to pay attention
to both our behavior, our thoughts, and how they influence other people.
You don't want it to be limited just to when you cause harm.
Because in a deeper way, the more important communication or
the positive or facilitative communication, so.
To say to somebody I noticed what you did that was good, or
I noticed that I was feeling love towards you.
Those are mindfulness space communications that are really helpful for
the relationship that apology and the forgiveness or repair parts.
There will also facilitative parts.
>> Wow, I almost think of the Yin Yang where you need that shit together to have
the whole relationship with the person.
>> And the research on relationship success.
They used to think that it was mostly that people could fight in a certain way.
But now they're finding that a large part of relationship
access is does your partner or your friend acknowledge your successes.
And the more you feel like you can share your positive world with
somebody the better the relationship feels.
>> I had read that and you just reminded me of that, that it's the celebrating of
the successes Jagan little that is also critically important.
>> Critically important.
>> Wonderful, thank you for that.
On this podcast Fred we have often talked about how our mindset and
approach affects our communication, but we've not explored our internal self talk.
Something you've thought a lot about and I'm wondering can you help us understand
the importance of self talk and how it affects how we interact with others.
>> I mean, we're always evaluating experiences.
So, I might have good question to you.
Good answer to me.
Not good question from you.
Not good question, answer from me.
We have an almost relentless inner dialogue that evaluates things.
If we just allow that critic praiser to go, we're pulled all over the place.
So, good question, all right, I feel better bad question.
I feel worse, good answer.
I feel good, bad question.
I feel bad, it's an emotional roller coaster.
So when people have meta strategies above that, that can modulate the self talk.
They usually have more control over it and their emotion so.
A mindset is a word for that.
So, I have a growth mindset.
So I want to learn how to have more constructive self talk.
>> Mm-hm.
>> The fixed mindset, that's just who I am.
>> All right. >> I teach happiness mindsets.
>> Mm-hm.
>> So, what kind of self talk will make me happier?
But if you have the happiness mindset then you look at
yourself talk from that perspective
is it working towards my deeper goal >> So
you can actually do work on your mindset.
Which then influences and affects how you approach your communication and
the different ways in which you interact with other people.
>> I think it's a bidirectional communication that when you wake up in
the morning, we have a handful of very basic inner premises.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And that reflects in that self talk and how we use the self talk.
But we can also look at the self talk and pull back and
recognize what our basic, deepest goals and values are.
So it's.
>> Right.
>> So bidirectional communication.
>> I've explored this a little bit when I help people manage
anxiety they have around communication.
>> Of course.
>> And we have lots of negative self talk that we say to ourselves I'm
going to mess up I can't believe I'm in this situation.
>> I'm a failure.
>> Right and if you start understanding what you're saying to yourself,
you can then begin to change that self talk.
>> Exactly. >> And there are words that
mindset that can help you feel better and more confident.
So I see a lot of synergy between what you're saying and some of the work I do.
I want to tap into this notion of happiness because your focus on
forgiveness really is part of your larger work gone happiness.
Can you help us connect the dots between forgiveness, apology, mindset and
happiness?
How do those all connect together?
And are there a couple of things we could do to be more happy?
>> There was a book maybe 15, 20 years ago that the Dalai Lama wrote.
>> Mm-hm.
>> Called The Art of Happiness.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And in that book the thing he talked about that was most influential to
me was if you want to be happy, practice the conditions that lead to happiness.
>> Mm-hm.
>> If you want to be unhappy, practice the conditions that lead to unhappiness.
So, within that framework of strategies that are more likely to produce
happiness and those more likely to produce that happiness.
One of the strongest that produces unhappiness is grievance,
is walking around with an unresolved grudge against something.
Another one that leads to unhappiness is bitterness that people feel
life hasn't been fair to them.
And a third that we see all the time is just self pity,
the poor me it didn't work out the way I hope.
Those are practices that the Dalai Lama says lead to unhappiness.
Practices that we teach that lead more to happiness,
forgiveness is resolving those grudges, gratitude is the opposite of bitterness.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And a certain self affirmation would be a contrary practice that
would lead to more happiness.
The key definer of that is again,
what we practice influences how happy we are.
It's not based primarily in external experiences,
it's an inner way of holding those experiences.
>> The cataloguing of the things we do to make ourselves unhappy and
make happy is actually very profound I find myself really reflecting.
I find that one of the things that makes me unhappy as I'm over scheduled and
rushing around.
>> Of course.
>> And so giving ourselves time and space and prior to us starting the recording,
you shared that meditation is something you do, it's something I do.
And it strikes me that just taking time to reflect, to give yourself that space,
in your schedule, and
maybe even to meditate are ways to help allow us to explore these ideas.
>> Mm-hm.
>> But also to make ourselves happier.
>> I mean, meditation is a profound tool.
>> Mm-hm.
>> That some people think is another necessary type
of consciousness that we minimize.
So, we have waking, sleeping, dreaming.
>> Mm-hm. >> There are people who postulate that
meditation and it's in on its self a brain patterning.
That is required for our highest functioning.
>> Fred, you've been teaching these skills for a long time and I'm curious if you
have any best practices you rely on to help people learn these types of tools.
So when you teach these tools,
what are things you have found help you to educate people about these.
>> I'm going to say the tool that would be most essential for
my simple practices are abdominal breathing.
>> Mm-hm.
Where you really focus on your core like somewhere in the the centre
like the martial arts put it an inch below your navel.
>> Right.
>> But inhaling and exhaling from that point and
making sure the exhalation is deep so the next inhalation fills.
That's essential and the other essential practice is simply thank you.
So I'm going to say the other practices to train your mind so
that you find all the ways that people are kind in good to you and
all the ways that you're supported in the world.
And that results in a heck of a lot more thank you than most people end up having.
But just noticing, This a water fountain.
>> Wow, that's good I don't have to go dig up water.
>> Okay.
>> And if you create a small attitude of thank you from that,
that in and of itself lowers stress.
But again, it opens the perception as the world is a safe place.
And that probably is the most important thing that we can create for ourselves.
>> An attitude of gratitude.
[LAUGH] you got it.
>> Is a great way and we've definitely talked about the importance of breath and
communication and relaxation.
>> Of course. >> And
it's great to hear it echoed in your ideas.
Before we end,
I'd like to ask you the same three questions I asked everybody who joins me.
Yep for that?
>> Sure >> All right,
if you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever
received as a five to seven word, presentation slide title.
What would that be?
>> Try as best you can for kind speech.
>> Try as best you can for kind speech, I like that.
It's not directive, it's inviting.
>> And it's also realistic.
>> Yeah, and don't set expectations that are unachievable.
>> Exactly.
>> A lot of us set expectations for ourselves and invite.
>> Other people absolutely.
>> I like that it's, in some ways it's forgiving yourself before you even start.
>> [CROSSTALK].
Let me ask you a question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
>> I had a teacher who when I was getting my first graduate
degree at San Jose State, I watched him do therapy.
And his listening was so profound.
>> Mm-hm.
>> His attention was so focused on someone else.
That struck me as how deeply valuable that was for
any kind of communication practice because he was all there in his listening.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And that observing behavior taught me something that was really
profoundly helpful in my career.
>> I love that I asked you a question about a communicator and
you immediately defaulted to a listener.
And I think that is so important in our communication to remember that listening
is as important if not more important, when we're communicating.
>> Question number three.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful
communication recipe that you're communicating when
somebody who is similar to you in deep values and aspirations?
That it's your responsibility to be clear and understandable.
>> Mm-hm. >> And you have opportunities if you don't
do it right the first time, if you're humble to get more attempts at it.
>> So I like that you're seeking similarity in terms of attitudes,
beliefs and values.
>> Yeah.
>> And I love that last part about, be humble and try it again.
>> One of the practices that we do teaching forgiveness is some aspect of
Buddha's loving kindness practice.
>> Mm-hm.
>> So one of those practices is basically just like me, they want to be happy.
Just like me, they want to be a piece, just like me, whatever.
And I think if the communication matters, you'd want to have that somewhere
in your consciousness that just like me, they want similar things.
>> So seeking commonality.
>> Yeah.
>> And similarity is a way to connect.
If I had to choose one.
>> Yeah, I like that.
Well, Fred I certainly have to end this by saying, thank you.
>> You welcome. >> You taught me a lot about gratitude,
your forgiveness and apology.
I find your work fascinating and so needed in our world today.
Thank you for taking the time and
helping us improve not just our communication but perhaps our happiness.
>> Thank you.
>> You've been listening to Think Fast, Talk Smart.
The podcast, a production of Stanford Graduate School of Business.
This episode was produced by Andrew Seltzer, Jenny Luna and me, Matt Abrahams.
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