SO, WHAT CAN THE WORLD ACTUALLY
DO TO HOLD VLADIMIR PUTIN
ACCOUNTABLE?
JOINING ME NOW IS OWNED A HOT
THE, WAY PROFESSIONAL OF
INTERNATIONAL LAW AT YALE LAW
SCHOOL, AND FOUNDER FOR THE
CENTER OF GLOBAL LEGAL
CHALLENGES.
PROFESSOR, THANK YOU FOR BEING
WITH US.
IS THERE ANY WAY TO ACTUALLY
CHARGE VLADIMIR PUTIN OR ANYONE
ELSE IN THE RUSSIAN CHAIN OF
COMMAND WITH WARCRIMES?
>> YES, PROBABLY THE MAIN WAY
FORWARD HERE IS THROUGH THE
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURTS.
AS YOU MENTION, THE
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT
DOES HAVE JURISDICTION HERE,
AND THAT IS BECAUSE UKRAINE
GAVE IT JURISDICTION STARTED IN
2013 OVERALL THE EVENTS THAT
ARE HAPPENING IN UKRAINE.
AND I STILL HAVE JURISDICTION
TODAY.
AND IN FACT, THE PROSECUTOR
THERE NATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT
HAS ALREADY BEGUN
INVESTIGATIONS SUPPORTED BY
REFERRALS FROM 41 COUNTRIES.
THEY BASICALLY SAID, WE REALLY
SUPPORT THIS EFFORT.
MANY ARE OFFERING ADDITIONAL
MONEY AND SUPPORT AND
ASSISTANCE FOR THAT
INVESTIGATION.
SO, THOSE INVESTIGATIONS HAVE
ALREADY BEGUN AND THERE IS A
NUMBER OF STEPS HERE.
THERE HAS TO BE EVIDENCE
COLLECTION THAT IS ACTUALLY
DOCUMENTING THE CRIMES THAT ARE
TAKING PLACE.
AND ENSURING THAT WE COLLECT
THAT EVIDENCE IN A WAY THAT WE
CAN EVENTUALLY BE PRESENTED IN
COURT.
AND THEN THERE'S THE NEXT STEP
OF FIGURING OUT WHO IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE TERRIBLE
CRIMES.
AND CONNECTING THE ACTS AND THE
TERRIBLE EVENTS TO THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE
FOR THEM.
>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FACETS
THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT AN
INTERNATIONAL LAW.
IS IT POSSIBLE TO CREATE A
TRIBUNAL ABOUT THIS THAT RUSSIA
IS IN PART OF?
RUSSIA DOES NOT BUY INTO THE
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT,
AND THIS IS THE WEEK OR THE
MONTH OR THE YEAR THAT IT WILL
DECIDE TO CHANGE ITS MIND.
IS THERE AN ENFORCEMENT
MECHANISM?
>> YEAH, SO, THAT'S A GREAT
QUESTION.
AND THE REASON THAT THE
NATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT DOES
HAVE JURISDICTION OVER RUSSIANS
IS BECAUSE THEY'RE COMMITTING
THEIR CRIMES IN UKRAINE.
SO, IT'S THE SAME PRINCIPLE
THAT IF I GO TO LONDON AND I
COMMIT A CRIME THERE, I CAN BE
BROUGHT IN FRONT OF A LONDON
COURT FOR COMMITTING A CRIME IN
LONDON.
I'M AN AMERICAN, BUT ALSO
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CRIMES THAT
I COMMIT IN ANOTHER STATE'S
TERRITORY.
SIMILARLY, HERE RUSSIA IS
COMMITTING A WHOLE HOST OF
CRIMES, OR CRIMES, CRIMES
AGAINST HUMANITY, PERHAPS EVEN
GENOCIDE.
AND IT'S HAPPENING ON THE
TERRITORY OF UKRAINE.
SO UKRAINE DOES HAVE THE RIGHT
TO PROSECUTE THOSE CRIMES, AND
TO DO IT ITSELF.
OR TO ALLOW A INTERNATIONAL
COURT TO PROSECUTE THESE WERE
CRIMES.
UKRAINE IS GIVEN JURISDICTION
OVER THESE CRIMES OF
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT,
AND THAT'S WHAT ALLOWS IT TO
HAVE JURISDICTION OVER THE
RUSSIANS WHO ARE COMMITTING
THEIR CRIMES ON THE SOIL OF
UKRAINE.
AND SO, EVEN THOUGH RUSSIA IS
NOT PARTY TO THE ICC I MAY NOT
RECOGNIZE IT, IT DOESN'T REALLY
MATTER.
AND THE CRIMINAL COURT CAN
PROSECUTE THEM IN UKRAINE,
BECAUSE UKRAINE IS THE PART TO
GIVE THE COURT JUST ACTION.
>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT
JOE BIDEN AND THE STATE
DEPARTMENT AND OTHERS ARE
TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT
THERE ARE LIKELY MORE CRIMES
COMMITTED BECAUSE, FOR DECADES,
THE UNITED STATES ITSELF HAS
EITHER RESISTED, OR UNDERMINED
INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE ICC.
OR THE UN HIGH COMMISSIONER ON
HUMAN RIGHTS BECAUSE OF
ALLEGATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE
AGAINST THE UNITED STATES AND
ALLIES.
APPARENTLY THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION IS REVIEWING THE
U.S.'S POSITION WITH RESPECT TO
THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL
COURT.
THIS FEELS LIKE THE MOMENT FOR
AMERICA TO RE-THOSE
INSTITUTIONS.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THE UNITED STATES HAD AN EASY
RELATIONSHIPS WITH
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT,
IN PARTICULAR, YOU MAY REMEMBER
THAT UNDER THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION, THAT WE
ACTUALLY SANCTIONED MEMBERS OF
THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL
COURT, JUDGES, AND ATTORNEYS
WHO WERE PARTICIPATING IN AN
INVESTIGATION OF THE UNITED
STATES FOR ACTIONS COMMITTED IN
AFGHANISTAN.
SO WE'VE HAD A VERY UNEASY
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT.
AND WHAT THIS MOMENT DOES
PRESENT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR
THE UNITED STATES TO THINK
ABOUT HOW DO WE CREATE
ACCOUNTABILITY IN THESE
SITUATIONS?
HOW CAN WE WORK WITH
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURTS?
SOMETIMES IT IS THE ONLY BODY
THAT IS IN A POSITION TO
ACTUALLY PROSECUTE THESE CRIMES,
AND WE BELIEVE IN INTERNATIONAL
LAW.
WE BELIEVE IN THE GENEVA
CONVENTIONS.
AND WE NEED A WAY TO BRING
ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THESE
VIOLATIONS.
AND INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL
COURT IS REALLY THE INSTITUTION
THAT IS BEST SITUATED TO DO
THAT.
IN ADDITION TO THE UKRAINIAN
COURTS THEMSELVES, WHICH AS YOU
MENTIONED AND OUTSIDE OF THE
SEGMENT, HAS ALREADY BEGUN SOME
INVESTIGATIONS.
IN FACT, THOUSANDS OF CASES OF
WAR CRIMES VIOLATIONS.
BUT ASIDE FROM THE UKRAINIAN
COURTS, THEIR INTERNATIONAL
CRIMINAL COURT IS REALLY THE
BEST INSTITUTION FOR TAKING
THESE FORWARD.