Who knew that the economic crisis was playing out so
just markedly, with 'mall Santas'.
What is the solution to US economic problems
like this jobs crisis?
We often have guests on, who talk about sound money, or regulations
but how about an entire new, not just economic system
but social system, too?
It sounds obviously very radical but that is just what
Peter Joseph of The Zeitgeist Movement is arguing for
and he is going to explain how and why exactly, that would work.
Peter, it's so nice to have you on the show. I'll just get right to it.
We have guests on the show who advocate for different solutions
to the criticisms of the current economic system
from debt jubilees to better regulations, private industry
sounder money. You argue for just
getting rid of free market capitalism as we know it
and completely overhauling the social system.
Why do you think that's the solution?
As all well and good as those things are
and thank you, Lauren, for having me
the real crutch here is the structural and psychological flaws
that this system creates. The unemployment crisis, the debt crisis
the public health crisis, the poverty crisis
the energy crisis that's looming
and the immense social destabilization you're seeing
are actually systemic causes of
the fatal flaws of this system at the core logic.
I can expand on any one of those topics that you like.
If you take what you just covered in this broadcast:
the unemployment crisis. - Ok
- The unemployment crisis is really driven by technology.
That's very important for people to understand because
unfortunately many aren't talking about this.
We have an exponential increase in information technology
coupled with invention, material invention, manufacturing
and all the other sectors, the service sectors
design revolutions that are happening with artificial intelligence
eliminating the necessity for human occupations
and it's exponentially increasing, and increasing more rapidly
as this decline occurs because
it's more affordable for corporations to automate.
They don't have to pay insurance and vacations.
If you look closely, this is the systemic element.
Does that mean technology is bad? No, it means that
human evolution is moving in a certain path
that is literally making obsolete the current social system
in that attribute that I've just mentioned
but I'll pause there and let you continue. - Thank you
and we'll get more into this. To stick to what you brought up
which is jobs we were talking about, certainly
you can talk about the technological component of job loss
but let me get to another one, what about, just for example
the industry of construction in this country
which we saw kind of totally decimated
with the housing bubble, which popped
and this gets to the issue of debt, which I know is an issue
that you talk about. Can you talk about the role of debt
and the limitations of it in our monetary system?
- Well, sure. You kind of have this bubble equality with debt.
You notice many people talk about debt jubilee
and debt forgiveness now. I heard one economist say
that we should just forgive debt every 50 years
and that doesn't really address the fundamental problem, does it?
Basically we have our money produced out of debt.
Money's made out of debt, whether it comes from the central banks
or from the private banks. The private banks manipulate money
loan it at interest to people, and there's the interest component
which doesn't exist in the money supply.
You have an infinite amount of debt, increasing constantly
throughout the entire world
and that is why we are in the staggering state that we're in
suffocating us on so many different levels:
just look at medical debts, look at student loan debts
look at all of the deprivation that's being caused of that.
That's one side of it, which is
to my view, a completely sick social experiment.
It's a horrible thing to do to human society
even impose this fictional element on them, to impose them
which brings me to my other point, which is that
debt serves as a form of (for lack of better expression) slavery.
It's an imposition of scarcity, which forces people into positions
that they typically wouldn't take for their purposes of integrity or education
but they have to, usually at less expense to the corporations.
In a way, it's great for the corporate system on a certain level
to a certain threshold, to have many inhibited people that have no freedom
to be in debt. A running joke in my community is that
when you get out of college, most likely you have $80,000 worth of debt.
You're 'ripe' to be enslaved into a corporate system
that doesn't have to give in to your interests or take care of you.
- You argue debt is slavery; you have some other criticisms of it as well.
We've seen the cause of it right now in so many of the issues
that we cover everyday on this show: in the Eurozone crisis
with public debt, that's obviously just one side of it.
My question then: Is this why you want to ditch the monetary system
and if so how do you reward work and sacrifice that people make?
- The removal of the monetary system I believe will occur
regardless of my intents. It's a natural evolution of human society.
All the mechanisms that have kept this system in place are phasing out
by default, and the social destabilization that's on the horizon
(I don't even have to do anything, I'm just trying to help)
is going to cause some type of change
and I hope, and the people that I work with, we hope
it will move into sane direction and not something equally as sinister
as what we've been seeing for the past 20 generations.
The issue of incentive is a common supporting argument
with respect to how people defend the free market system.
They say "If people don't have a direct material incentive to work
(a reward, carrot stick) then they won't have any initiative to do so."
The first thing I would say, is that scientifically a lot of research's been done
to show when it comes to creative interests
people are not motivated by money.
Money seems to be inhibiting people's creative effects.
It's only mechanical operations like working on a factory line
or waiting tables (things that can easily be automated
if we applied our technology) that people need that reward
because it's so mundane.
The true ability and best resource on the planet is the human mind
and to free that mind, to enable it to be creative.
That's the beauty of our technological evolution at this point.
On a second level, noting that scientific validity
that incentive is not always the case for people to be operational
we have other incentives in society that are not directly material
that are very rewarding that if people broaden their horizon
they would see. The incentive to be able to walk out of your home
and not be worried about someone robbing you
because they live in a deprived environment:
pointing a gun and taking your resources
putting all those locks on our doors.
Most of the crime we see in the world is related to money
one way or another and deprivation through the monetary system.
Another incentive is the removal of war, the removal of poverty.
Imagine having the satisfaction of knowing there aren't one billion people
starving on this planet? There is a deeply social element in us
that is coming to fruition. It has to for our survival.
I believe that our personal interest must become social interest
it has to. It really is already there, but we just don't know it yet.
We don't think about it that way.
Until that happens we have a lot of big things on the horizon.
One final point I'll say about incentive, how about this as a classic example?
We have all sorts of immense military revolutions happening right now.
They're going to make the atomic bomb look like a Roman catapult.
What's going to happen when we have these advanced technologies
and the immature society we do now based on this
farce social Darwinism, this tribal mentality
this sovereign war mentality: everyone fighting amongst themselves
the assumption that we can't get along.
What's going to happen when we have the advanced technologies
that can be pulled off the shelf, through molecular engineering
that can wipe out whole continents on a whim?
This is a very real thing and in the words of Albert Einstein:
"Our technology has exceeded our humanity."
It's very important that our values come in line
and that's explicit to our new socially-conscious revolution
that has to come from the basis of the economic system.
- Peter, there is so much more I want to get to because you have
so many interesting points of view that I want to get more into.
Since we last spoke, Occupy Wall Street has happened
where we see people protesting the economic system
on the streets of the US. I want to talk about more of these things.
We're going to go to a quick break but we will be back
with director and filmmaker Peter Joseph.
With Occupy Wall Street all over the nation
we have seen people come out onto the streets
to protest the economic system itself
and director and filmmaker Peter Joseph is one
who advocates for a total overhaul.
We're going to get more into what he thinks of this Movement
and what he thinks of changes to the economic system.
Peter, let's get back into this because as I said
Occupy Wall Street is on the streets, protesting the economic system.
It's also a leaderless movement.
I'm curious if you see
them as having their intentions in the right place?
- Intentions absolutely, but until answers are proposed
until people get together and think about the solution
not much is going to be accomplished unfortunately.
It's an awareness protest movement. It's really important what they're doing.
I think it's really another systemic outgrowth of destabilization.
I've been expecting this type of thing to happen for a long time.
Occupy Wall Street and the Global Occupy Movement
(which is really the most important attribute of it
because this isn't just about Wall Street
this isn't just about the US).
It is really about the total global financial system
and the inherent flaws of the market system
even though many people in The Movement don't even discuss those issues.
They're just expressing their angst and rightly so.
What I would like to state though, is that
the 1% are not something to be demonized per se.
The 1% are simply the best game players in this game strategy
that's been generated. The 99% have let the 1% come to their place
as easily as anything because the 99% have been supporting
all the mechanisms that enabled the 1%.
This system is based on a structural classism.
It's always in favor of the wealthy and
I don't mean that just from lobbying and government intervention.
The very basis of the structure from the banking, the loan
and interest system, really support that.
If The Occupy Movement really wants to get down to brass tacks
they're really going to have start addressing these root issues
that I talk about, that my Movement talks about
and many others talk about, and then think about
what the solution is. I really believe in the Buckminster Fuller notion
that it's not about fighting some system anymore.
It's about building a new design that makes the other one obsolete
and getting the public to understand it, and then the game is basically over.
- It's a kind of evolution that you talk about but I'm just really curious
how you do that, and how long you see that needing to take
because I don't know if you saw the Black Friday videos
of people attacking each other for $2 waffle-makers?
I'm going to play a tiny montage for our audience.
I'm sure you can imagine from the noise what's going on in them.
(Crowd noise)
(Security guard) Everybody get back!
(Siren hoots)
- Peter, it sounds like riots, it looks a little like riots
unfortunately it's people clamoring for video games.
I wouldn't want to get caught up in between them and their video games.
How do you get between them and their video games
and how long is that going to take?
- Good question. I'd like to point out that before World War II
consumption in America was half of what it is now per person.
The ravenous consumption mentality
has really been imposed on culture by advertising
and it's very important that people see that.
When you see that aberrant behavior of such
it's really a cultural anomaly. We need that in the market system
to enable consumption to be as rampant as possible
to keep this infinite growth paradigm going unfortunately.
How do you change that issue, is that your question? - Yes
- How do you get people to see the light?
- Absolutely! To put down those video games.
- Yes, as though those are life-supporting elements anyway. - Exactly.
- Nevertheless, there is a massive educational paradigm
that I can't talk about enough.
The social breakdown of society is going to open minds.
This is the bio-social pressure that has basically
caused every major shift in human society.
The problems that are on the horizon are going to slowly
get everyone to step back and say "What do we do now?"
That's where I think the importance of
you and everyone who's aware of this
have to get together and show people what a solution can be
get them on board, and get a mass movement
to enable it to come forward.
That sounds very simplistic and it's an over-generalization
but it's not going to happen through government policy.
Governments are far too interlocked today into corporate institutions.
Governments are corporations! All the US government is
is a parent corporation of all the subsidies
known as the 'Industry Central'.
That's really all the US government does. It's funded, supported
and regulated by corporations. It always was by the way.
This isn't some anomaly that occurred.
It's just the nature of the game. We shouldn't expect anything less.
I think it's a mass Grassroots Movement.
- Sounds like there's going to be a lot of movement needed
in order to get to where you're saying we need to be.
I certainly credit you for trying and for coming on our show
and talking all about this.
That's Peter Joseph, filmmaker and director.
He's with The Zeitgeist Movement. Thanks so much, Peter.