- (upbeat music)
- Hi, my name is Clark Lee.
I go by he/him pronouns,
and I am here today with the amazing,
wonderful Pidgeon Pagonis.
It is a pleasure to be speaking with you.
I am so honored to have you participate in
our Microsoft Pride 2021 Together, We Can Celebration.
You have been instrumental in bringing
more awareness to the "I" in the LGBTQI+
through your informational videos
that have gone viral on Buzzfeed,
to creating art that centers intersex voices,
along with your amazing self on magazine covers
to being honored as an LGBT Champion of Change
when President Obama was in office.
You continually hold rein in the debates
on sexuality and otherness.
I'm so glad you are sharing your time with us
so we can learn more about uniting for change,
to improve awareness about and for
the intersex community.
And I know that you are also looking
to write a book as well,
or in the process of writing a book,
so you're adding more feathers in your cap.
Again, it is an honor to have you here
so that we have a basic understanding.
Would you please share what being born
intersex means and what it doesn't mean?
- First of all,
I just want to say thank you
for bringing intersex awareness to your company.
And also let me say thank you
just because you're a kindred spirit,
and it's been such a pleasure to meet you.
To answer your question,
I think most of us use this definition
that comes from the United Nations website.
They have an intersex page,
you know,
and they have this great definition,
and it basically boils down to
people who are born with sex traits
that can't be neatly categorized
into a simple either/or category
of 100% male or 100%,
I just tapped my table,
or 100% female.
Whether that's reproductive hormones,
sex traits,
or secondary sex characteristics such as
breasts or chests,
or the way hair is distributed on the body,
or fat is distributed,
those are secondary sex characteristics.
So any of those categorizations and more,
there's more ways that you could be intersex.
We are not disorders.
We don't have pathologies.
We do not have syndromes.
We are simply beautiful,
healthy, wonderful,
amazing human beings born too cute to be binary,
meaning we are not 100% male
and we are not 100% female,
and that's a-okay.
Statistically speaking between one and 2000,
and one and,
some say, you know,
a couple of hundred thousand
of the human population worldwide,
a child is born with developmental
or with biological traits,
such as sex traits
or secondary sex characteristics,
or hormones,
or reproductive organs that could potentially,
depending on who sees their bodies,
or who evaluates them,
that could potentially get that child
labeled as intersex.
- I'm glad you brought in the numbers
because we are a very data focused company.
And you know,
one of the big things
that I've been a proponent of is allyship
within the community that you're a part of,
especially when the community encompasses
so much intersectionality.
It's common to hear about the erasure of the "B",
you know,
and the "T" for transgender
in the LGBTQIA+ community.
I can only imagine it being
an even greater challenge
when bringing awareness about
the "I" members of the community.
How often is the intersex community
just lumped in with the transgender community?
- People are now starting to,
I think,
understand more that intersex is not
the same thing as trans or transgender.
And I think more and more people
are starting to understand that biological sex
is distinct and different than gender.
There's a lot of intersex people,
such as myself,
who inhabit trans identities.
I'm non-binary,
which is under the,
I see it as under the umbrella of trans,
so I identify as trans non-binary for my gender.
I'm trans because my gender today is different
than what was assigned to me at birth,
which is very complicated because I'm intersex,
but let's just put a pin on that for now.
But I'm non-binary today,
and I was assigned female at birth,
but actually I'm intersex.
So I see myself as trans non-binary,
and also that my biological sex is intersex.
I don't believe that intersex and trans
are these things that have to be kept
completely separate,
and that if you talk about them together,
it's going to do a disservice.
I see intersex justice,
or the fight,
or the journey towards justice for intersex kids,
and intersex adults,
and people in general,
as necessarily interwoven with the trans journey,
or the trans struggle,
for justice, as well,
for recognition,
for acceptance,
for access,
for so many things,
for the right to live freely.
- So do you ever,
is it ever okay to disclose
that someone is intersex
in the spirit of awareness,
especially when,
because you know,
you don't come across someone
who actually identifies as intersex very often,
and we know within the community,
you don't out someone without their permission,
but because you don't run into someone
that's intersex very often,
there may be this inclination to call
someone out as intersex.
Again, is that okay?
Or is that usually frowned upon?
- I would say that even though
I have a lot of pride,
as I'm showing right here today in my hair,
I have a lot of pride about being intersex,
and non-binary,
I think it's out of necessity,
because I see it as a strategic position
against the pathologization
from the wider society at large and doctors.
But if someone is intersex,
and knows,
and confides to you,
or tells you,
or tells the whole group of people at work,
for instance, it's still not,
I don't think okay to go tell others,
without their permission.
Of course, if they say it's cool,
then like go right ahead, do that.
But I would say we're not at the point
right now where I think it's acceptable
on a grand scale to just tell others
that people are intersex.
And I don't think it's a shame thing.
It's more of a safety thing right now.
- So can you share what resources you recommend
people check out to learn more
about being born intersex,
the needs of the intersex community,
and how to be an active ally?
- Number one, www.interactadvocates.org
They are the only legal organization
in the country dedicated solely
to protecting the rights of intersex clients
and people,
and families.
A second great resource is interconnect.support
That's the website.
It's not.com.
And it's a support group for intersex people
and parents of intersex people.
And the third resource I would share
is the Black-led and brown-led activist organization
called intersexjusticeproject.org
with a bunch of great resources.
And the last resource I'll say
is a film you can watch,
and it's free on YouTube,
and it's free if you have a subscription to Prime,
and it's called Intersexions,
with an "X",
and you should check that out.
It's the one of the best documentaries
on the topic ever made.
- Thank you, Pidgeon on behalf of all of us
here at Microsoft,
we wish you a fantastic pride,
and that you'll continue doing what you do.
But hopefully now with more allies
who are knowledgeable about the intersex community
and ways to advocate from bringing in
to unnecessary surgeries,
because by uniting for change,
we'll get some more intersex stories,
less surgeries.
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