>> Guess on the show, is that I get exposed to information, topics, ways of life, perspectives,
and all of that, that I would never have come across otherwise. And I think we potentially
have one of the best examples of that in a very long time, with an author joining us,
now, to talk about a topic that I have really never thought about any sort of critical,
or even relatively deep way.
So let's broach that today, as we're joined by the author of Here She Is, the complicated
reign of the beauty pageant in America. Sociologists from Brown University, Hilary Levy Friedman,
welcome to The Damage Report. >> Thanks so much for having me.
>> Glad to have you on, so this is about pageants, but it's really a lens that you're using to
look at feminism in America over the past century, or so?
>> Even more than that, I really started in 1848 at Seneca Falls. A lot of people don't
know PT Barnum, started the first beauty contest in the United States in the 1840s, and kid
beauty contest, too. So it goes starts there and goes all the way up to present day.
>> That is fascinating. So I'm from Bridgeport, Connecticut, so PT Barnum is all up in the,
I had no idea that, I mean, why not? He's done literally everything else. So let's talk
about the evolution over the time. You have a long timeframe here that you're talking
about.
Where does sort of modern, or even relatively modern ideas of feminism start to creep into
it? It seems like initially, that wasn't necessarily one of the driving forces behind setting these
up? >> Well, the book is organized around what
I refer to as the three waves of feminism.
So sort of the biggest success of the first wave of feminism was the ratification of the
19th amendment, celebrating the 100th anniversary this year. And about a year later, the Miss
America pageant starts. And if you ever wonder why pageant contestants wear sashes, they
got those from the suffragists.
So that's a whole interesting story. So right there, we see a very strong connection. And
then, one of the biggest events in second wave feminism was in September 1968. When
the New York radical women organized as that protest right outside of the message America
pageant. And it's seen as one of the first really organized and public moments of second
wave feminism.
And then, there's lots of ties to what I call a third wave feminism after the election of
Trump, of course, used to own Miss Universe and Miss USA, but in the me, to movement and
links to Gretchen Carlson, as well, so it beauty pageants really are a lens to see this
arc of feminist history in America.
>> Well, yeah, and if people want more information about one of, I think the most interesting
links, is what you said about the sash. I know that you have an op-ed available on the
New York Times about that, so yeah, I wasn't sure how long I'd go before I'd mentioned
Donald Trump, but obviously, before he was the occupant of the White House, he had this
long history with pageants.
How does he play into this sort of the interlinking of the pageant world with feminism?
>> Well, for sure, what Donald Trump did when he was owner, which he has admitted to and
then many of the contestants have talked about, really fulfills some of the worst stereotypes
about beauty pageants.
So here's a man who owns the pageant. And he would go backstage, and sort of, in his
own words, who would inspect to the goods, and even some of the former beauty queens
who are very supportive of him, like Carrie Prejean, who was Miss California USA, you
may recall, cuz there was a big brouhaha that she said, she didn't believe in same sex marriage,
and she was named first runner up.
So anyway, even she said, he came one day, and he divided the contestants between hot
and knot, and she was like, this is in her memoir, she said she was glad to be in the
hot group, but she felt sorry for the people who were in the knot.
So really, Donald Trump fulfills those stereotypes. Miss USA and Miss Universe has a very specific
history that it is explicitly a beauty pageant, always has that swimsuit component, because
of how it started. And so, Donald Trump is actually a really bad example. And somewhat
a rare example, because the pageant world tends to be dominated by women and not by
men.
>> But behind the scenes as well as on the stage in terms of organizing it, promoting
it, profiting from it, for all of that that is more leaning towards women?
>> Yeah, I mean, a lot of people will say this is beauty pageants are terrible, because
women are being judged by men, and evaluated based on how they look, and there's lots and
lots of truth in that.
But one of the things I do and here she is, is I take these sort of stereotypes and these
claims very seriously, and I collected a lot of data. So I collected all the program books
from the 1970s to the present, for Miss USA, Miss America, and some others as well, and
looked at the makeup of the judges panel.
So actually, a majority, a vast majority of judges are women and not men. Now, of course,
at home, there may be men judging the women on how they look on their TV screens. But
even there, starting as early as the 1950s and 1960s, when these pageants went on TV,
the majority of the viewing audience has been women.
>> Thank you so much for joining us. The book is Here She Is, the complicated reign of the
beauty pageant in America, Hilary Levy Friedman, thank you so much for joining us, very fascinating
work you've put together there. >> Thanks for having me.